When Jesus died.Did his spirit go to the center of the earth?

paarsurrey said: ↑
Jesus prayers were heard by G-d and he was miraculously saved a cursed death on the Cross. Right?

cOLTER said:

No, wrong. The Fathers answer was yes, you must drink of this cup. Israel was then cursed for a time. The mortal body of the Son was unjustly murdered. The spirit Son returned in a new form as he said he would. Being God he could do such things.

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" Fathers answer was yes, you must drink of this cup"

Kindly quote from god-the-father, please. Right?
It is simply one's Pauline-Hellenist ( dying-and-rising, death-rebirth, or resurrection deity Is a religious motif
in which a god or goddess dies and is resurrected ) ill-founded blind belief, one gathers, please. Right?

It has got nothing to do with Jesus- the Jewish Messiah, please. Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

paarsurrey said: ↑
Jesus prayers were heard by G-d and he was miraculously saved a cursed death on the Cross. Right?

" Fathers answer was yes, you must drink of this cup"

Kindly quote from god-the-father, please. Right?
It is simply one's Pauline-Hellenist ( dying-and-rising, death-rebirth, or resurrection deity Is a religious motif
in which a god or goddess dies and is resurrected ) ill-founded blind belief, one gathers, please. Right?

It has got nothing to do with Jesus- the Jewish Messiah, please. Right?

Regards

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There is no direct quote, only the actions that Jesus took after he prayed. Besides, you don't honor what the Bible says anyway so your request is insincere.

Jesus had already alluded to the final acts earlier. “The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.” Since the Bahi followers pick and choose from the Bible you probably don't believe this quote from Jesus anyway.

cOLTER said:

There is no direct quote, only the actions that Jesus took after he prayed. Besides, you don't honor what the Bible says anyway so your request is insincere.

Jesus had already alluded to the final acts earlier. “The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.” Since the Bahi followers pick and choose from the Bible you probably don't believe this quote from Jesus anyway.

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"There is no direct quote"

The claim is a big one, If there is no direct quote then it is an accusation on Jesus that he made such a claim, please. Right?
So it must have been "invented" by the Hellenist-Pauline-Christianity people, and they are used to it, I understand. Right?
Jesus-the Jewish Messiah never claimed it in a straightforward and unequivocal manner. Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

"There is no direct quote"

The claim is a big one, If there is no direct quote then it is an accusation on Jesus that he made such a claim, please. Right?
So it must have been "invented" by the Hellenist-Pauline-Christianity people, and they are used to it, I understand. Right?
Jesus-the Jewish Messiah never claimed it in a straightforward and unequivocal manner. Right?

Regards

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Jesus used the tittle "Son of man" and "Son of God", others called him the Jewish messiah. Jesus submitted himself to execution and then returned on his own. Its you who invented Jesus the liar becuse you have no faith in Jesus.

cOLTER said:

Jesus used the tittle "Son of man" and "Son of God", others called him the Jewish messiah. Jesus submitted himself to execution and then returned on his own. Its you who invented Jesus the liar becuse you have no faith in Jesus.

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Please correct oneself, Jesus never claimed to be a Hellenist/Pauline-Christ, he admitted that he was Messiah:

Matthew 26:63-64:

62 The high priest stood up and said to him, “Have you no answer? What is this that these testify against you?” 63 But Yeshua stayed silent. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 Yeshua said to him, “You have said so. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”
World Messianic Bible Matthew 26
Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Please correct oneself, Jesus never claimed to be a Hellenist/Pauline-Christ, he admitted that he was Messiah:

Matthew 26:63-64:

62 The high priest stood up and said to him, “Have you no answer? What is this that these testify against you?” 63 But Yeshua stayed silent. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 Yeshua said to him, “You have said so. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”
World Messianic Bible Matthew 26
Right?

Regards

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Judaism is an evolved religion which contains many man made rules, laws, traditions, scriptures etc. The expectation of a coming "deliverer" was derived from ancient teachings by seers and truth tellers across Mesopotamian religious culture. The Jews adopted the notion and developed rigid expectations about the form and function of what a Jewish Messiah was supposed to do. Jesus could never be that Messiah although he was the incarnate Son of God that was anticipated for thousands of years.

Jesus built his ministry on the expectation of a deliverer but very cleverly never said he was the kind of Messiah that was expected because he wasn't.


"You have said so" is a polite and safe way of saying "that's your opinion" without publicly denying that he was the Messiah expected by the Jews.

Jesus came and went without fulfilling the Jews expectations. The Christians then developed a theory that he would "soon return" to carry out all the requirements of a Jewish Messiah.

paarsurrey said:

Please correct oneself, Jesus never claimed to be a Hellenist/Pauline-Christ, he admitted that he was Messiah:

Matthew 26:63-64:

62 The high priest stood up and said to him, “Have you no answer? What is this that these testify against you?” 63 But Yeshua stayed silent. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 Yeshua said to him, “You have said so. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”
World Messianic Bible Matthew 26
Right?

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Please see, the High Priest asked/accused Jesus of claiming to be Messiah, the Son of God, but Jesus denied and said that Jesus was Son of Man. Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Please see, the High Priest asked/accused Jesus of claiming to be Messiah, the Son of God, but Jesus denied and said that Jesus was Son of Man. Right?

Regards

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Sort of, Jesus replied to Pilate "you say that I am a king". Jesus used the expectation of a spiritual deliverer as the foundation for his ministry even though so many of the material Kingdom "expectations" concerning a Jewish Messiah were false.


Pilate went back into the Praetorium, summoned Jesus, and asked Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?”34“Are you saying this on your own,” Jesus asked, “or did others tell you about Me?”35“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed You over to me. What have You done?”36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.”37“Then You are a king!” Pilate said.

“You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason, I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.”38“What is truth?” Pilate asked.

And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against Him. 39But it is your custom that I release to you one prisoner at the Passover. So then, do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?”

40“Not this man,” they shouted, “but Barabbas!” (Now Barabbas was an insurrectionist.)

cOLTER said:

Sort of, Jesus replied to Pilate "you say that I am a king". Jesus used the expectation of a spiritual deliverer as the foundation for his ministry even though so many of the material Kingdom "expectations" concerning a Jewish Messiah were false.


Pilate went back into the Praetorium, summoned Jesus, and asked Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?”34“Are you saying this on your own,” Jesus asked, “or did others tell you about Me?”35“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed You over to me. What have You done?”36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.”37“Then You are a king!” Pilate said.

“You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason, I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.”38“What is truth?” Pilate asked.

And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against Him. 39But it is your custom that I release to you one prisoner at the Passover. So then, do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?”

40“Not this man,” they shouted, “but Barabbas!” (Now Barabbas was an insurrectionist.)

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Pilate " . 39But it is your custom that I release to you one prisoner at the Passover."

One could see that Pilate was trying to save Jesus one way or the other. Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Pilate " . 39But it is your custom that I release to you one prisoner at the Passover."

One could see that Pilate was trying to save Jesus one way or the other. Right?

Regards

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Yes, that's correct, the Jews had some power over Pilate due to earlier failings on his part. In his heart Pilate knew Jesus wasn't guilty of anything. Considering the popularity of Jesus among the common man, Pilate was gambling that the crowd would pick Jesus. But they "hated him without a cause". In the end Pilate was a coward!

cOLTER said:

Yes, that's correct, the Jews had some power over Pilate due to earlier failings on his part. In his heart Pilate knew Jesus wasn't guilty of anything. Considering the popularity of Jesus among the common man, Pilate was gambling that the crowd would pick Jesus. But they "hated him without a cause". In the end Pilate was a coward!


View attachment 64118

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I believe in the end Pilot could not admit to Jesus being a king. It would have been political suicide.

cOLTER said:

Yes, that's correct, the Jews had some power over Pilate due to earlier failings on his part. In his heart Pilate knew Jesus wasn't guilty of anything. Considering the popularity of Jesus among the common man, Pilate was gambling that the crowd would pick Jesus. But they "hated him without a cause". In the end Pilate was a coward!

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Thanks for admitting the obvious truth that Pilate tried his best to save Jesus' cursed death on the Cross, he could not save Jesus from the torture on the Cross, but ultimately he was successful in his endeavors to save Jesus life, it transpires. Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Thanks for admitting the obvious truth that Pilate tried his best to save Jesus' cursed death on the Cross, he could not save Jesus from the torture on the Cross, but ultimately he was successful in his endeavors to save Jesus life, it transpires. Right?

Regards

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"Tried his best"? "admitting"? "obvious"? If you can't even be honest about the simplest things, why are you even involved with religion??? Pilate was cowardly throughout the process, first sending Jesus to Herod and then to the mob! Washing his hands of the whole thing rather than denying the Jews the request to have Jesus unjustly killed.


As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”


When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9 and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

12 From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.”

13 When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14 It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.

“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.

15 But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”

“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.

“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.

16 Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

paarsurrey said:

Thanks for admitting the obvious truth that Pilate tried his best to save Jesus' cursed death on the Cross, he could not save Jesus from the torture on the Cross, but ultimately he was successful in his endeavors to save Jesus life, it transpires. Right?

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Friend @ cOLTER

The earlier Christian venerated Pilate and his wife as Saints:

" According to the Biblical Archeology Society, “early Christians saw Pilate in a very different way. Augustine hailed Pilate as a convert. Eventually, certain churches, including the Greek Orthodox and Coptic faiths, named Pilate and his wife saints. And when Pilate first shows up in Christian art in the mid-fourth century, he is juxtaposed with Abraham, Daniel and other great believers.”
Why do some Christians consider Pontius Pilate a saint?
They even have fixed with a feast day on June 25, perhaps this information did not reach to our friend @ cOLTER .
Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Friend @ cOLTER

The earlier Christian venerated Pilate and his wife as Saints:

" According to the Biblical Archeology Society, “early Christians saw Pilate in a very different way. Augustine hailed Pilate as a convert. Eventually, certain churches, including the Greek Orthodox and Coptic faiths, named Pilate and his wife saints. And when Pilate first shows up in Christian art in the mid-fourth century, he is juxtaposed with Abraham, Daniel and other great believers.”
Why do some Christians consider Pontius Pilate a saint?
They even have fixed with a feast day on June 25, perhaps this information did not reach to our friend @ cOLTER .
Right?

Regards

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I can't speak for why some Christian churches call Pilate a saint. I suspect its becuse they think he did Gods will. It's from that vantage point of the atonement doctrine that developed after Jesus left. Jesus was very clear, rejecting his message and killing him was the will of the devil! It was a sin!

Jesus allowed himself to be killed.

cOLTER said: ↑
Yes, that's correct, the Jews had some power over Pilate due to earlier failings on his part. In his heart Pilate knew Jesus wasn't guilty of anything. Considering the popularity of Jesus among the common man, Pilate was gambling that the crowd would pick Jesus. But they "hated him without a cause". In the end Pilate was a coward!

paarsurrey said:

Thanks for admitting the obvious truth that Pilate tried his best to save Jesus' cursed death on the Cross, he could not save Jesus from the torture on the Cross, but ultimately he was successful in his endeavors to save Jesus life, it transpires. Right?

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Friend @ cOLTER

I searched on the Google with the terms " brave male Christians who withstood and fought for Jesus in Crucifixion ", sorry, I could find none. Did I miss something?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

cOLTER said: ↑
Yes, that's correct, the Jews had some power over Pilate due to earlier failings on his part. In his heart Pilate knew Jesus wasn't guilty of anything. Considering the popularity of Jesus among the common man, Pilate was gambling that the crowd would pick Jesus. But they "hated him without a cause". In the end Pilate was a coward!

Friend @ cOLTER

I searched on the Google with the terms " brave male Christians who withstood and fought for Jesus in Crucifixion ", sorry, I could find none. Did I miss something?

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Please don't be angry our friend!
Pilate (whom one calls a "coward") was not a believer, even then he tried and he was successful in saving Jesus' life ( and from a cursed death on the Cross), it transpires. Right?
The "brave" male believers including the Twelve and the "Rock" just ran away, as per the Gospels, one could say. Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Please don't be angry our friend!
Pilate (whom one calls a "coward") was not a believer, even then he tried and he was successful in saving Jesus' life ( and from a cursed death on the Cross), it transpires. Right?
The "brave" male believers including the Twelve and the "Rock" just ran away, as per the Gospels, one could say. Right?

Regards

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No, wrong! That’s not what the story says, that’s what you want it to say.

paarsurrey said:

cOLTER said: ↑
Yes, that's correct, the Jews had some power over Pilate due to earlier failings on his part. In his heart Pilate knew Jesus wasn't guilty of anything. Considering the popularity of Jesus among the common man, Pilate was gambling that the crowd would pick Jesus. But they "hated him without a cause". In the end Pilate was a coward!

Friend @ cOLTER

I searched on the Google with the terms " brave male Christians who withstood and fought for Jesus in Crucifixion ", sorry, I could find none. Did I miss something?

Regards

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No, you didn’t miss anything. Jesus forbid his apostles to fight for him. He didn’t even defend himself.

It may appear that Jesus was on trial before Pilate and the Sanhedrin but in truth, they were “on trial” before Jesus. The Creator doesn’t stoop to defend himself before the created.

Israel thought it was getting rid of Jesus when in fact their problems with him had only just begun! In condemning Jesus through their corrupt trial they were dooming themselves.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ c ”

cOLTER said:

No, you didn’t miss anything. Jesus forbid his apostles to fight for him. He didn’t even defend himself.

It may appear that Jesus was on trial before Pilate and the Sanhedrin but in truth, they were “on trial” before Jesus. The Creator doesn’t stoop to defend himself before the created.

Israel thought it was getting rid of Jesus when in fact their problems with him had only just begun! In condemning Jesus through their corrupt trial they were dooming themselves.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ c ”

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" Jesus forbid his apostles to fight for him. "

Wrong, isn't it a later excuse as they all (male disciples) ran away and deserted Jesus alone on the Cross, one gets to know, please? Right?
If yes, then kindly quote from (Jesus) Yeshua-the Israelite Messiah in this connection in unequivocal terms, please. Right?

Regards