Plato's Allegory Of The Cave?

syo said:

No, it's not. It's the real deal. The pain is real.

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What we are in is to another group of people a simulation

The thing is, to us it is real

But it is still simulated

It is a simulation of reality

Therefore we experience it as reality

"we live inside a simulated dimension of reality"

Wildswanderer said:

The most intense joy lies not in the having but in the desiring.

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OK, that will rule out obtaining eternal salvation, and heaven, as the most intense joy. Which sorts of defeat the concept of heaven, doesn't it?

Ciao

- viole

viole said:

OK, that will rule out obtaining eternal salvation, and heaven, as the most intense joy. Which sorts of defeat the concept of heaven, doesn't it?

Ciao

- viole

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You assume heaven is a once and done discovery?
Lewis saw heaven as endless growth. So you never reach the end of desire and arrive at the peak.
But I suspect he was speaking about our current self here, not our transformed self.

Wildswanderer said:

You assume heaven is a once and done discovery?
Lewis saw heaven as endless growth. So you never reach the end of desire and arrive at the peak.
But I suspect he was speaking about our current self here, not our transformed self.

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Yes, but is that eternal growth necessary?

After all God could create a suboptimal heaven, let all those souls desire for something more, never grant it, and He would have reached a heaven with the maximum level of joy for all eternity, without complicating things beyond necessity.

By the way, are we sure C.S. Lewis claim holds water? Prima facie, it sounds like one of those sentences that sound spiritual and profound, but are actually nonsensical, when analysed rationally.

Suppose I have a sick tooth that is causing me big pain. Do you think I would experience more joy by desiring its removal, than by having it actually removed?

Ciao

- viole

There is two components to morality:

First is holding to honor and light and judgment as reality, and not made up, believing in goodness and evil, and the light of God's leader appointed by him.

The second component, is rationally seeing consequences of evil actions and benefits of good actions. The light intuitively is not enough for this, analysis is often needed, for further clarification.

When Quran talks about a course divided into twelve branches and courses from the people of Musa, it means, his successors are all one light. But they apply differently in their different contexts and situation. That is why the Gospels is very different then the Torah and Psalms. Their Nubuwa appears differently as well, the way God communicated to humanity differed Prophet after Prophet after Musa (a).

The reasoning is needed and what level people are at needs to be assessed.

The Quran "Truth" that the Successors (a) guided by, I would say has:

(1) Light of God component, his life connected through the Imam
(2) Analysis of actions harms on society making them evil and the degree of evil
(3) Analysis of actions benefits and how they set aright earth and justice
(4) Context and manifestation in Quran for all three.
(5) Context and manifestation in Sunnah for all three.

This sense knowledge of good and evil is not just one of these and not the other.

Some people believe in light of honor and sword of God but get confused regarding morals, because they haven't analyzed it properly.

Half of the reasoning of Quran and most emphasized moral (good and it's counter part, evil) is marriage and Muta. Muta is explained throughout and why and for what reasons one should do it, and that it best avoided if can be and patience is better then it. But it's alternative for those who fear God's curse.

Marriage is taught as an ideal and why. Why marriage is half of the religion per hadiths, you can see Quran throughout talks about it, directly or indirectly.


Unfortunately, the allegory of the cave misunderstands all this and put's it all on platonic thing. Light is needed, honor is needed, but it's mostly about being truthful and analyzing things sincerely.

The light of truthfulness when applied, makes you analyze things truthfully and sincerely in search of truth.

Truth becomes manifest and clear, when sincere.

This analogy makes it like people are trapped and can't think outside their perspectives. The truth is they aren't thinking and are following their caprice and passions, and argue with truth by falsehood, and refute proofs and reasoning with conjecture.

This has nothing to do with light or shadows, but everything to do with DIRECTION.

THEY ARE RUNNING AWAY FROM TRUTH AND GOD AND REBELLING ON EVERYTHING HE COMMANDS.

continued....

This analogy makes people assume they can't know right and wrong by their nature, unless, they mystically trascend.

Higher actions and connection to God, we need rituals revealed by God, true.

But as far as evils and general good, they don't need complex explanations. It's simple. We don't need to be well versed in philosophy or see light at super high platonic level.

All it needs is some down to earth sincerity towards God and his sent ones (mursaleen), and hear there rational explanations with a down to earth humble heart. That's all.

No need of philosophy at a super high intense level.

More will be said...

Allegory of the cave intention is to say democracy is evil and that we need educated rich class to educate us. Evil intention with evil analogy that just makes people confused more.

More will be said...

viole said:

Yes, but is that eternal growth necessary?

After all God could create a suboptimal heaven, let all those souls desire for something more, never grant it, and He would have reached a heaven with the maximum level of joy for all eternity, without complicating things beyond necessity.

By the way, are we sure C.S. Lewis claim holds water? Prima facie, it sounds like one of those sentences that sound spiritual and profound, but are actually nonsensical, when analysed rationally.

Suppose I have a sick tooth that is causing me big pain. Do you think I would experience more joy by desiring its removal, than by having it actually removed?

Ciao

- viole

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It might not apply to everything but it's still true. When we get something we thought we needed so badly often we lose interest in it quickly and want something else.
And what is the opposite of desire?
To desire nothing in this world might mean we are so jaded that life itself is no longer interesting. Children have lots of desire and express it ..as we get older it seems like we often settle for less than we really wanted in life. It makes me sad.

Wildswanderer said:

It might not apply to everything but it's still true. When we get something we thought we needed so badly often we lose interest in it quickly and want something else.
And what is the opposite of desire?
To desire nothing in this world might mean we are so jaded that life itself is no longer interesting. Children have lots of desire and express it ..as we get older it seems like we often settle for less than we really wanted in life. It makes me sad.

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So, do you think God suffers from the same syndrome? I ask, on account of us being in His image, allegedly.

Ciao

- viole

viole said:

So, do you think God suffers from the same syndrome? I ask, on account of us being in His image, allegedly.

Ciao

- viole

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God has desires but not needs. And we certainly can't compare our desires to his.

Wildswanderer said:

God has desires but not needs. And we certainly can't compare our desires to his.

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Why not? What does it mean exactly to be in His image then?

We know, I suppose, that He does not look like a hairless gorilla as we do. So, "image" must be something spiritual, whatever that means.

But if we are so different in basically everything, to not even compare in terms of desires and needs, where are we similar to Him?

Ciao

- viole

Yeah perception is definitely the cave of reality. I'd be shocked if there wasn't far more to reality than is known. If there were no purpose and meaning to life, then why on Earth do we have the ability to create meaning and purpose, and why do we function from the ability to do so naturally?

The overall purpose of existence may not be grande. But I can arrive at some pretty grande purposes on my own.

However my dog isn't really concerned about it all

Eddi said:

What we are in is to another group of people a simulation

The thing is, to us it is real

But it is still simulated

It is a simulation of reality

Therefore we experience it as reality

"we live inside a simulated dimension of reality"

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Rick and Morty Season 5 episode 2 explains very well why this "simulation/decoy" reality, is just one more unprovable falsity.

I recommend it.

Eddi said:

View attachment 63610

Do you believe we humans are in the same predicament as the men in the cave in Plato's Allegory Of The Cave?

To quote Wikipedia:

…a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from objects passing in front of a fire behind them and give names to these shadows. The shadows are the prisoners’ reality, but are not accurate representations of the real world.
​

I do!

I believe that our reality is a computer simulation

And that it is a fairly crude simulation too but that we don't know any better!

To me, Plato's cave scenario resembles the truth of our condition to a very great degree

All we have ever known and can ever know are only shadows - that bear only a very minimal resemblance to anything that exists outside The Simulation

Were we to ever exit The Simulation our puny simulated minds would be totally blown

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your quotes:All we have ever known and can ever know are only shadows
your quotes:Were we to ever exit The Simulation our puny simulated minds would be totally blown

My Answer: Aren't these assumptions no more than excuses not to venture into undiscovered country to Discover what actually is??? Are you accepting those beliefs as fact? Are you so comfortable in your beliefs that you will not venture beyond them? Aren't you the one who is creating the walls and limiting yourself?? Aren't you failing to ask the millions of questions that one who seeks the truth continue to ask??

God hides nothing. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. How much do people choose not to see??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

MikeF said:

A bit, but not quite. Plato is saying what we experience is an illusion and we only perceive actual reality through reason.

My view is that what we experience is reality, it is just that our perspective is limited or restricted. By expanding our perspective, (simplistically, for example, leaving a mountain valley and climbing a peak to see what is beyond the mountains), we are able to experience more of reality and begin to develop a more complete picture of reality.

One metaphor I find useful is to think of our core communal knowledge in terms of a sphere, with the interior of the sphere representing reality that is experienced and confidently known. The boundary of the sphere represents those areas in which we have some information, but not enough to resolve a clear picture, or understanding. This boundary layer can vary in thickness, and becomes less distinct as one travels to the outer edge. Outside the boundary is black and represents all that is completely unknown.

If we look at humanities core communal knowledge throughout history, we can see how the core of what is know, what is inside the sphere, has grown and expanded throughout history. Our core of knowledge is much greater than that of our most primitive ancestors. It is our actively seeking knowledge, working to expand our perspective, that allows us to resolve our limited understanding at the boundaries of our knowledge and continue to expand our collective sphere of knowledge.

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I like the idea if communal knowledge, or universal knowledge. What those from independent cultures, countries, and backgrounds agree on can be trusted.

Microscopes to telescopes, tools expand perception.

Escape Plato 's cave through travel and study of other cultures and belief systems Dark night of the soul often results in a universal belief system that combines multiple perspectives.

Link said:

This analogy makes people assume they can't know right and wrong by their nature, unless, they mystically trascend.

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I don't believe you can support that with anything Plato wrote. Plato was urging people to understand that their sensory experience and even the physical world were just mere shadows of a truth that reason could ferret out. We are only trapped by our own refusal to explore reality instead of being habituated to mere material existence.

Link said:

Allegory of the cave intention is to say democracy is evil

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While Plato did favor philosopher kings, I don't think there is any statement of necessary evil with regards to democracy in this allegory. Everyone can rise up out of the cave by rejecting the supremacy of the material and using reason to look beyond what is readily presented.

osgart said:

Yeah perception is definitely the cave of reality. I'd be shocked if there wasn't far more to reality than is known. If there were no purpose and meaning to life, then why on Earth do we have the ability to create meaning and purpose, and why do we function from the ability to do so naturally?

The overall purpose of existence may not be grande. But I can arrive at some pretty grande purposes on my own.

However my dog isn't really concerned about it all

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"it’s an organism, and an organism is a thing that governs itself. In your body there is no boss. You could argue, for example, that the brain is a gadget evolved by the stomach, in order to serve the stomach for the purposes of getting food. Or you can argue that the stomach is a gadget evolved by the brain to feed it and keep it alive. Whose game is this? Is it the brain’s game, or the stomach’s game? They’re mutual. The brain implies the stomach and the stomach implies the brain, and neither of them is the boss."

Allan Watts.

Eddi said:

What we are in is to another group of people a simulation

The thing is, to us it is real

But it is still simulated

It is a simulation of reality

Therefore we experience it as reality

"we live inside a simulated dimension of reality"

Click to expand...

And how do you explain pain???

Presumably William Blake had Plato’s allegory in mind when he observed, “If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through the chinks of his cavern.”

Blake, visionary that he was, saw more than most. Each of us however, sees but little; Blake, like the Buddha, appears to be saying that we are deceived by veils of illusion which originate within us. We can begin the process of broadening our perceptions, and raising our consciousness, by learning to recognise and tune out the chattering of the ego. Once we realise that the voice in our head, the relentless inner monologue, is the illusory voice of a false self, we can begin to disregard it, and so become tuned to other frequencies. Through prayer and meditation, we can raise a corner of the veil, or cleanse the doors of perception.

syo said:

And how do you explain pain???

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All life is suffering (pain).
The origin of all suffering is desire and attachment.
Cessation of suffering comes from relinquishing desire and attachment.
The path to relinquishing desire and attachment is the eightfold path of right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.