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Why the World Would Not Be Better Off Without Religion

Truth in love

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
SomeRandom said:
Fair enough.
So I take it you support giving all freedoms to all, including those who vehemently disagree with you?
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Yes any law that would restrict a right of person A can also restrict person B.


So freedom of speech needs protecting even if I really disagree. The freedom to live, work, worship etc all need to be protected.
The government should limits right very little and protect them a lot. (E.g yelling fire in a theater can be dangerous. But we don’t need 500 rules on how we communicate).
 
JDMS

JDMS

Academic Workhorse
The world would definitely be different without religion. I think it's difficult to even imagine what that world would look like since religion is so steeped in our culture, art, and history now that it's almost to separate everything.

I think one of the reasons it's difficult to imagine is because people have a tendency to revere the world around them, especially anything powerful, beautiful and influential such as the sun, mountains and rain. I've noticed when talking to hikers and other outdoor sports enthusiasts that they basically 'worship' the nature they expose themselves to. Same goes for people. Romantic partners, authority figures, and athletes are often treated with a watered-down version of worship and respect that gods are often treated with. Is this religious activity? I wouldn't say so, but it's hard to imagine a world where humans have this tendency to revere things and religion doesn't form. And it's even harder for me to imagine a world where humans no longer have this tendency at all. Personally I think it'd make poetry and media very boring, but I suppose I wouldn't say that if I never knew it existed in the first place.

I think there would be drawbacks and benefits, but it's hard to say. It's possible that every problem would still exist, but for another reason. Would there be less war if religion never existed, or would the people in power find other causes to rally their men around? Would literature still be rich with reoccurring imagery, just with different symbols and motivations? Honestly, I have no idea. Sadly these discussions will never yield real answers since it delves into a hypothetical that can never be answered on this Earth. Not that it means the discussion isn't worth having.... I just wish there were real answers. It would be interesting to take a portal to a dimension like this just to take a look.
 
SomeRandom

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Truth in love said:
Yes any law that would restrict a right of person A can also restrict person B.


So freedom of speech needs protecting even if I really disagree. The freedom to live, work, worship etc all need to be protected.
The government should limits right very little and protect them a lot. (E.g yelling fire in a theater can be dangerous. But we don’t need 500 rules on how we communicate).
Click to expand...
I agree
 
PearlSeeker

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
JDMS said:
New The world would definitely be different without religion. I think it's difficult to even imagine what that world would look like since religion is so steeped in our culture, art, and history now that it's almost to separate everything.
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John Lennon imagined it.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Truth in love said:
Harvard and Yale started off as religious schools.
So even for the diehard extra atheist their life is a lot better because of religious belief and the actions of those who believe.
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Did people start those schools because of religion,
or did they start schools, which merely reflected the
religious orientation of their society & era?
When religion dominates everything, it will be infused
in everything. This doesn't mean those things wouldn't
otherwise exist.
Without religion, that would be one less thing about
which one group would oppress others. Of course,
with the absence of theocrats, we'd still see fascists
wanting control. Humanity would still be a mess, just
slightly less messy.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Revoltingest said:
Did people start those schools because of religion,
or did they start schools, which merely reflected the
religious orientation of their society & era?
When religion dominates everything, it will be infused
in everything. This doesn't mean those things wouldn't
otherwise exist.
Without religion, that would be one less thing about
which one group would oppress others. Of course,
with the absence of theocrats, we'd still see fascists
wanting control. Humanity would still be a mess, just
slightly less messy.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is all religion is. Religion is nothing but bad and that is a dogmatic claim, that can't be doubted, because it is the most objective fact, that exists. ;)
 
viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Debater Slayer said:
The notion that the world would be better off without any religion is neither new nor uncommon, especially among certain non-religious communities such as "New Atheists." However, for the reasons I will list in this thread, I believe it is inaccurate and largely incorrect in that it seems to view and treat religious belief as somehow inherently different from other cultural, ideological, and political views that can influence one's actions.

- During multiple periods in history, religious belief that the universe is the creation of a deity has been behind a considerable amount of scientific and philosophical thought. This extends from medieval periods of Christian dominance over Europe to the Islamic Golden Age, when the natural sciences were viewed by some thinkers and scientists as a way to understand God's creation.

- Religious thought around the world has given humanity some immensely useful concepts or at least helped to popularize and widen their use. These include meditation, mindfulness, literary and textual analysis (especially to understand scripture), and poetic and linguistic devices that have made their way into various literary and artistic media.

Qur'anic Arabic greatly influences a lot of Arabic poetry, for instance, and Dante's Inferno is another example of an outstanding artistic contribution influenced by religious concepts and thought.

- The sense of community that religions offer has an undeniably positive outcome for the lives of many people. Humans are social creatures, and it is no surprise that a venue for bonding and connecting over deeply held beliefs is valuable for many of them.

- Due to some religions' emphasis on the value of charity and giving to the poor, many in need have benefited from aid given by religious institutions, especially when state apparatuses meant to oversee social security have failed or functioned improperly. The Catholic Church, for all of its faults, has helped a lot of poor people throughout its history, as have many mosques and Islamic community centers, among others.

This is a very brief list, but the main point is that, in my opinion, the world wouldn't be any better or worse off without religion than it would be without, say, politics or other cultural elements. We can see that political ideology underpins hatred, persecution, and tribalism in countries like China and North Korea regardless of religious affiliation. As with any human institution, politics, religion, and culture all have their pros and cons, and I don't believe religion is so unique in this regard as to render its absence from the world a necessarily good thing on the whole.
Click to expand...
I also do not believe that the world would be better off without religion. Some say Europe, especially Northern Europe, shows that without religion there is more education, more wealth, more social security, more inclusion, more equality, more freedom, less violence, etc. and that it is therefore better to have no religion, or very low levels of religiosity.

But I think they are confusing causes and effects.

What I think it is true, is the opposite. Namely, that religion will vanish by itself when the world will become better (via other means).

Ciao

- viole
 
Last edited:
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
viole said:
I also do not believe that the world would be better off without religion. Some say Europe, especially Northern Europe, shows that without religion there is more education, more wealth, more social security, more inclusion, less violence, etc.

But I think they are confusing causes and effects.

What I think it is true, is the opposite. Namely, that religion will vanish by itself when the world will become better (via other means).

Ciao

- viole
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That depends on your definition of religion.
 
P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Mock Turtle said:
Not sure that is fair, or the song being about Communism. It can be slated for being too idealistic, utopian, and unrealistic however. :oops:
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Sure, Lennon wasn't a Communist. With the Vietnam War he certainly helped the Communists. He was a neo-Marxist, a radical, a dreamer. He didn't really stand for anything, just a reed blowing in the wind, whichever way the wind was blowing.
 
Mock Turtle

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
Communism in short requires another species than humans. :)
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Probably, but Communism did and still does wherever it is found have the obstacle of being shunned by so many other nations, so it's likely never to have had a fair try. Given that China doesn't seem to have a proper version and Cuba seemingly had some decent points even as it was shunned by the USA. But I'm just reeling off some thoughts, given I haven't studied any of the countries involved. :oops:
 
AppieB

AppieB

Active Member
It's undeniable true that religion has had a major impact on our history: in a positive way and in a negative way. That's just the way history has worked out. Religion was our first (philosophical) attempt to understand reality. It has brought us a lot and the examples given are good examples of positive impact on our societies (although I have some criticism regarding these examples). But because of philosophy, science and our growing knowledge of the world I think we have now developed better tools than religion has to offer. I don't know how the world would look like right now if there had never been religion, but we are here now today with better ways/tools to understand reality. Faith or dogmatic believes are not ways to reliable knowledge. Reason and evidence are.

There is something else: We have to abandon the notion that taking away religion is the same as taking away empathy, desires, hope, love, awe, inspiration, etc. (I get this impression a lot from theists) This is not a part of religion nor is it part of atheistic worldviews. This is part of human nature. Taking away religion does not mean taking away our human nature. On the contrary; we can even focus more on our nature, instead of (also) focusing on supernatural desires or what God wants. There would still be poetry, music, science, love, relations, philosophy, awe, sculptures, inspirtation, morality etc.
 
Truth in love

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
Did people start those schools because of religion,
or did they start schools, which merely reflected the
religious orientation of their society & era?
When religion dominates everything, it will be infused
in everything. This doesn't mean those things wouldn't
otherwise exist.
Without religion, that would be one less thing about
which one group would oppress others. Of course,
with the absence of theocrats, we'd still see fascists
wanting control. Humanity would still be a mess, just
slightly less messy.
Click to expand...

religion like science can be useful or abused to harm others.

how much time and energy would have gone into literacy without religion? Would we have bothered to make a printing press for comic books?
I have serious doubts.
Could we have built atheist universities? Yes but would we have invested the same levels of resources? I really doubt it.
 
RestlessSoul

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
PruePhillip said:
Sure, Lennon wasn't a Communist. With the Vietnam War he certainly helped the Communists. He was a neo-Marxist, a radical, a dreamer. He didn't really stand for anything, just a reed blowing in the wind, whichever way the wind was blowing.
Click to expand...


He had a lot of faults, many of which he publicly admitted to, in his lyrics and in interviews. But I think it's undeniable he was committed to trying to be a better person. Certainly he was a dreamer - there's a song there somewhere; the world can never have too many dreamers, imo.
 
Alien826

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I sometimes wonder if religion is just an amplifier. A good song and a bad song will both come out louder. After all, what argument is more powerful than "God is on my side"?

The question remains though is whether without religion all these movers and shakers would have fought just as hard for what they wanted? Would MLK have found another source of strength? Or would the medieval kings have found another justification for their exalted positions?
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Truth in love said:
religion like science can be useful or abused to harm others.
Click to expand...
Of course.
how much time and energy would have gone into literacy without religion?
Click to expand...
Religion also stifled learning & books.
Did it add or subtract?
I don't know.
Would we have bothered to make a printing press for comic books?
Click to expand...
Yes.
But porn would've preceded it.
There had long been much interest in secular books.
I have serious doubts.
Could we have built atheist universities?
Click to expand...
Sure.
But secular universities would be more likely.
Yes but would we have invested the same levels of resources? I really doubt it.
Click to expand...
Without the teaching of religion, less money & effort
would be needed, since only secular studies would exist.
 
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