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Allah's failure to communicate.

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Three things:

1. You didn't address my comment (because my logic is solid).
2. Whataboutism is a transparent deflection used in lieu of having an answer.
3. I don't have a god.

You simply can't deny that the Qur'an is an utterly inadequate mess.
OK, I was joking when I said what about your god.

But, I already told you i agree, even the Prophet said He left two things after Himself for people as guidance: Quran, and Sunnah (Hadithes). He didn't say, He has given only Quran.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
OK, I was joking when I said what about your god.

But, I already told you i agree, even the Prophet said He left two things after Himself for people as guidance: Quran, and Sunnah (Hadithes). He didn't say, He has given only Quran.

You're quoting a hadith when you say that, NOT the Qur'an. Surely something that important, that seminal, would have been stated unequivocally in the book that exists for the sole purpose of defining Islam. It doesn't. It. Does. Not.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You're quoting a hadith when you say that, NOT the Qur'an. Surely something that important, that seminal, would have been stated unequivocally in the book that exists for the sole purpose of defining Islam. It doesn't. It. Does. Not.

The Quran says to ask the family of the reminder as part of relying on God.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
You're quoting a hadith when you say that, NOT the Qur'an. Surely something that important, that seminal, would have been stated unequivocally in the book that exists for the sole purpose of defining Islam. It doesn't. It. Does. Not.
(4:59) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.


Obey Allah, means, obey the verses of Quran, and obey Messenger, means the words of Muhammad (hadith). So, they are both important in true Islam.

So, when in Hadithes Muhammad said, after Muhammad, there will be 12 Imams that are to be followed after Him, and learn interpretation from them, this was supposed to be followed by Muslims. These Imams were the ones charged with Authority as the verse (4:59) is referring.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
(4:59) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.


Obey Allah, means, obey the verses of Quran, and obey Messenger, means the words of Muhammad (hadith). So, they are both important in true Islam.

So, when in Hadithes Muhammad said, after Muhammad, there will be 12 Imams that are to be followed after Him, and learn interpretation from them, this was supposed to be followed by Muslims. These Imams were the ones charged with Authority as the verse (4:59) is referring.

As I've already said, as long as hadiths confirm the Qur'an, then that's perfectly logical, but when they are used to make proclamations not in the Qur'an, then they're creating Islamic policy that is not from Allah. The Qur'an says several times that Mohamed is nothing more than a messenger, which means he is simply passing along what Gabriel told him. Nowhere does it suggest that he can fill in gaps for Allah. After all, that would make him a "partner", wouldn't it?
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Allah's failure to communicate wasn't complete. Afterall, the Qur'an contains 6,236 verses, so it stands to reason that some topics are adequately covered. For example, many hundreds of verses are dedicated to reiterating that unbelief is evil and those who practice it (i.e.: non-Muslims) are deservedly Hell-bound. The necessity of fighting is not in doubt. Female captives can clearly be used for sex. The fact that Allah has no equals, and is responsible for the creation of the universe is repeatedly stated. More mundane matters such as inheritance, rules for divorce, the number of wives a man may have, and just when to beat one's wife are clearly delineated.

However, the Qur'an is more notable for what it does not clarify. If dogs and music are haram, as some, but not all Muslims believe, why not just say so? Exactly how much of her body is a woman required to cover? Why was there no process given to choose Mohamed's successor? Are people created from clay or a blood clot? Mountains are up-thrusts created by plate tectonics, so why does Allah say they are "placed", which implies they are separate from their surroundings? But to me, all of that pales in comparison to one fact - that hadiths and tafsirs are apparently necessary for Muslims to really figure out what Allah wants. If, as He frequently states, His sign are "clear", and that he has "perfected for you your religion of Islam", why on earth would it be necessary for all of the additional, and frequently conflicting, 'clarification'?

An argument could be made that hadiths are relevant to the extent that they give actual examples of how Mohamed lived by what he preached. But, when they are further used to create policy, rather than exemplify it, as in the case of some declaring that dogs and music are haram, they overstep. Tafsirs are worse. They are blatant attempts to speak for Allah. The very fact that Islamic scholarship even exists for the obviously necessary purpose of clarification proves that Allah failed to get his wishes across. How is that logical given Allah's 'perfection'?

To me the answer is obvious. The Qur'an was created on an ad hoc basis by Mohamed depending on what 'Allah' happened to need on any given day. No 'perfect' deity would have created such a mess. An honest and objective reading of it could not bring a person to any other conclusion.

Imho, the quran contains a lot of truths along with interpolations. Muhammad was illiterate and he probably was not able to practice quality control when the verses were finally put into paper .

Most of the verses were memorized, and the possibility of interpolations is high.

There could be divine content through intuition, as well as erroneous human content by interpolation or additions which is responsible for the verses on war and bloodshed, as well as subjugation of women, and their unfortunate manifestations in the real world.

Critical examination can help divide the divine truths from the human erroneous ones. I have read of islamic experts who attempted to do this, but were cowed down by death threats from fundamentalists and fanatics operating from a closed mindset.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
There is always disagreement about interpretation of the Quran. This is why, the right way of knowing what a verse is about, it to see how Muhammad had interpreted the verse. There are many Hadithes from Muhammad that only the 12 Imams and Fatimah are the pure ones, in a sense that they are the only ones who are sinless, and were thus worthy to receive knowledge of the Book.
The other positions that includes other people as well-grounded in knowledge is not supported by any Hadith from Muhammad.
When Muhammad has authored the Quran, He is the one who knows best what He meant by those verses. And when He said, the 12 Imams are the only pure ones in Hadithes, anyone who wants to follow Islam, would not deviate from Muhammad's Hadithes and interpretations.
"There is always disagreement about interpretation of the Quran...but only mine is the right one! I know this because I believe the people who claim it is. All other interpretations are therefore wrong"

This basically the entirety of your argument.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
(4:59) So, when in Hadithes Muhammad said, after Muhammad, there will be 12 Imams that are to be followed after Him, and learn interpretation from them, this was supposed to be followed by Muslims. These Imams were the ones charged with Authority as the verse (4:59) is referring.
The hadith says that Islam will flourish under 12 caliphs.
It doesn't say that only those caliphs can interpret the Quran.
Also, the 12 caliphs after Muhammad are not the "12 imams" of Shiism.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Imho, the quran contains a lot of truths along with interpolations.
What do you mean by "truths"?

Muhammad was illiterate
It is not certain that Muhammad was illiterate. He had a privileged upbringing, travelled widely on trading expeditions as a young man, and was employed to run Mecca's largest merchant's empire. A certain level of literacy would seem likely from such a background.
The passages in the Quran that are claimed to show his illiteracy may have a different meaning. The word "ummi" usually refers to people without adherence to a revealed scripture rather than without the ability to read.

and he probably was not able to practice quality control when the verses were finally put into paper . Most of the verses were memorized, and the possibility of interpolations is high.
This is a key point. There is literally no way of ever knowing if the words in today's standard Quran are the same as the ones uttered by Muhammad 1400 years ago. All we have is claims that every passage was remembered perfectly by someone, and that was the version that was recorded - which while possible seems somewhat unlikely.

There could be divine content through intuition, as well as erroneous human content by interpolation or additions which is responsible for the verses on war and bloodshed, as well as subjugation of women, and their unfortunate manifestations in the real world.
So "nice stuff = from god, nasty stuff = from man".
Convenient.

Critical examination can help divide the divine truths from the human erroneous ones.
And how might this be achieved?
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
So "nice stuff = from god, nasty stuff = from man".

Obviously war against unbelievers and female subjugation cannot be of divine origin. Such sort of fanatic talk is there in almost every religion and is man-made.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Obviously war against unbelievers and female subjugation cannot be of divine origin.
Why not? (assuming that there is actually a god and it authored the Quran)

Such sort of fanatic talk is there in almost every religion and is man-made.
I agree that such things do seem to be of human origin - but so does everything else in "divine scripture".
Every passage in the Quran makes more sense as the work of men from the Ancient Near East than it does as the work of an infallible, omniscient, omnipotent, most just, merciful beneficent, etc god.
It was clearly written by 7th century Arabs, for 7th century Arabs.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Why not? (assuming that there is actually a god and it authored the Quran)

But why should God be against women and unbelievers and urge believers to harrass and trouble them ! Does he not have other priorities and things to do.

I agree that such things do seem to be of human origin - but so does everything else in "divine scripture".
Every passage in the Quran makes more sense as the work of men from the Ancient Near East than it does as the work of an infallible, omniscient, omnipotent, most just, merciful beneficent, etc god.
It was clearly written by 7th century Arabs, for 7th century Arabs.

This is the point exactly.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
But why should God be against women
Well, he's not against them. He just considers them inferior to men in some ways.

and unbelievers
Because they refuse to believe in him, obvs. Are you claiming that all the stuff in the Quran and the Bible that mentions god's dislike of disbelievers was fabricated by man? That's most of it!

and urge believers to harrass and trouble them !
To get them to sign up. Not unlike how organised crime harasses and troubles small businesses to get them to pay protection. Pretty similar concepts.

Does he not have other priorities and things to do.
The Quran says that god created man "only to worship him", so people not worshiping him is, by definition, his main priority.

This is the point exactly.
So you don't think any of it is of divine origin?
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Imho, the quran contains a lot of truths along with interpolations. Muhammad was illiterate and he probably was not able to practice quality control when the verses were finally put into paper .

He was dead when it was finally written down, which brings up another absurdity regarding the Qur'an. Allah never commanded that it be written down, and Mohamed didn't think to do so either. How did the creator of the universe and knower of all things not figure out that strictly oral recitations of 6,236 verses would eventually become corrupted? That makes exactly zero sense - unless maybe, just maybe, no deity was involved in the process. Maybe it was all made up by Mohamed when he needed his invisible friend to send down another order that benefited himself. If you consider that possibility, it makes sense that it wasn't converted into written form because he didn't care what happened to it after he was dead.

Most of the verses were memorized, and the possibility of interpolations is high.

There could be divine content through intuition, as well as erroneous human content by interpolation or additions which is responsible for the verses on war and bloodshed, as well as subjugation of women, and their unfortunate manifestations in the real world.

What makes you think war etc. were additions? If they were, it only makes Allah's attempt at communication an even bigger failure. The entire project was botched from start to finish.

Critical examination can help divide the divine truths from the human erroneous ones. I have read of islamic experts who attempted to do this, but were cowed down by death threats from fundamentalists and fanatics operating from a closed mindset.

Islam does not allow questions because it can't stand up to scrutiny.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
But why should God be against women and unbelievers and urge believers to harrass and trouble them ! Does he not have other priorities and things to do.

You're denying the vast majority of the Qur'an. If you think much of it is man-made, why do think any verses came from Allah, and by what criteria do you differentiate between them and the man-made ones?

This is the point exactly.

I'm confused. You have said some is of divine origin and now you seem to agree it's all man-made.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What exactly does that mean? Can you give the exact quote?
Salam

There are two instances of this, the context of each slightly changes their meaning.

The first is in Surah Nahl. Some verses to give context in the Surah:

وَعَلَى اللَّهِ قَصْدُ السَّبِيلِ وَمِنْهَا جَائِرٌ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ لَهَدَاكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ | With Allah rests guidance of the path, and from it are deviations and had He wished He would have guided you all. | An-Nahl : 9

وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ مِنْ كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا ثُمَّ لَا يُؤْذَنُ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَلَا هُمْ يُسْتَعْتَبُونَ | The day We shall raise a witness from every nation, the faithless will not be permitted [to speak], nor will they be asked to propitiate [Allah]. | An-Nahl : 84

وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ ۖ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ شَهِيدًا عَلَىٰ هَٰؤُلَاءِ ۚ وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ تِبْيَانًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً وَبُشْرَىٰ لِلْمُسْلِمِينَ | The day We raise in every nation a witness against them from among themselves, We shall bring you as a witness against these. We have sent down the Book to you as a clarification of all things and as guidance, mercy and good news for the Muslims. | An-Nahl : 89

وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَسُولًا أَنِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُوا الطَّاغُوتَ ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ هَدَى اللَّهُ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِ الضَّلَالَةُ ۚ فَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ | Certainly We raised an apostle in every nation [to preach:] ‘Worship Allah, and shun fake deities.’ Among them were some whom Allah guided, and among them were some who deserved to be in error. So travel over the land and observe how was the fate of the deniers. | An-Nahl : 36


Now the mini-context:

الَّذِينَ صَبَرُوا وَعَلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ يَتَوَكَّلُونَ | —those who are patient and who rely on their Lord. | An-Nahl : 42

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ | And We did not send before you except as men to whom We revealed to therefore ask the family of the Reminder if you do not know. | An-Nahl : 43

بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ ۗ وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ | [We sent them] with manifest proofs and scriptures. We have sent down the reminder to you so that you may clarify for the people that which has been sent down to them, so that they may reflect. | An-Nahl : 44

Mohammad's (s) role to clarify Quran is talked about here in flow, and his family succeed him and take this role. The verse before talks about relying on God and so the "and..." connects asking the family of reminder to the fact it's relying on God.



The other place is in Surah Anbiya. In this Surah, the context is not simply to ask clarification of Quran, but to ask them for miracles. That's seen here:

بَلْ قَالُوا أَضْغَاثُ أَحْلَامٍ بَلِ افْتَرَاهُ بَلْ هُوَ شَاعِرٌ فَلْيَأْتِنَا بِآيَةٍ كَمَا أُرْسِلَ الْأَوَّلُونَ | But they said, ‘[They are] muddled dreams!’ ‘Indeed, he has fabricated it!’ ‘Indeed, he is a poet!’ ‘Let him bring us a sign, like those sent to the former generations.’ | Al-Anbiyaa : 5

مَا آمَنَتْ قَبْلَهُمْ مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ أَهْلَكْنَاهَا ۖ أَفَهُمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ | No town that We destroyed before them believed. Will these then have faith [if they are sent signs]? | Al-Anbiyaa : 6

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۖ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ | And We did not send before you except as men to whom We revealed to therefore ask the family of the Reminder if you do not know. | Al-Anbiyaa : 7


The context is slightly different, in that, in Surah Anbiya, it's talking about signs in form of miracles like previous Messengers were sent with. It warns they most likely won't believe just as past nations who were destroyed did not, but then goes on to say, in the past it was all men who God revealed to as well, therefore go ahead and ask the family of the reminder. The context here is miracles, while in Surah Nahl, the context is about guidance and clarifying what is revealed.

Surah Anbiya emphasizes on the reminder a lot, the new reminder, to be Quran.

Aside from that, we see it also emphasizes on a family of the reminder of the past:

وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُ إِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ نَافِلَةً ۖ وَكُلًّا جَعَلْنَا صَالِحِينَ | And We gave him Isaac, and Jacob as well for a grandson, and each of them We made righteous. | Al-Anbiyaa : 72

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ الْخَيْرَاتِ وَإِقَامَ الصَّلَاةِ وَإِيتَاءَ الزَّكَاةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا لَنَا عَابِدِينَ | We made them Imams, guiding by Our command, and We revealed to them [concerning] the performance of good deeds, the maintenance of prayers, and the giving of zakat, and they used to worship Us. | Al-Anbiyaa : 73

And the reminder is both Quran and Mohammad (s). To show this, we read else where:

أَعَدَّ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا ۖ فَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ يَا أُولِي الْأَلْبَابِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۚ قَدْ أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكُمْ ذِكْرًا | Allah has prepared for them a severe punishment. So be wary of Allah, O you who possess intellect and have faith! Allah has already sent down to you a reminder, | At-Talaaq : 10

رَسُولًا يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ مُبَيِّنَاتٍ لِيُخْرِجَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ ۚ وَمَنْ يُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ وَيَعْمَلْ صَالِحًا يُدْخِلْهُ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۖ قَدْ أَحْسَنَ اللَّهُ لَهُ رِزْقًا | an apostle reciting to you the manifest signs of Allah that He may bring out those who have faith and do righteous deeds from darkness into light. And whoever has faith in Allah and does righteous deeds, He shall admit him into gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them forever. Allah has certainly granted him an excellent provision. | At-Talaaq : 11


His family is also the same reminder and are the living Quran as well whence the fullest appreciation of it's glory and beauty is found, and hence "the family of the reminder".
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As I've already said, as long as hadiths confirm the Qur'an, then that's perfectly logical, but when they are used to make proclamations not in the Qur'an, then they're creating Islamic policy that is not from Allah. The Qur'an says several times that Mohamed is nothing more than a messenger, which means he is simply passing along what Gabriel told him. Nowhere does it suggest that he can fill in gaps for Allah. After all, that would make him a "partner", wouldn't it?

Where do you get that the message and clarification is the Quran?

Nubuwa is about reception, Quran is a reception from God, it's not Mohammad's (s) message. God's words are channeled through Mohammad's (s) and is a clear message, but they aren't Mohammad's (s) message nor his role as a Messenger. Mohammad's (s) role as a Messenger is to clarify Quran through his own words.

Messenger and message is a different role then Nubuwa (receiving and channeling scripture), it's about his own words in clarifying the revelation.

Nubuwa also has two components, there is receiving physical words, but then there is also how they take form in the 7 heavens and how they descend and ascend back to God. This reception that he understands revelation as it meant to be also shows, that his role as a receiver (Nubuwa) is not enough, but he need to clarify and be a Messenger.

Some proofs of this:

5:67 Mohammad (s) is told to convey what is revealed to him, while saying "convey Quran, if you don't convey Quran, you have not conveyed Quran" would be a meaningless thing to say. You know, if you didn't jump, you didn't jump. That's too obvious. So the real meaning, is that, he has to clarify something essential that has been revealed, or the message would not have been conveyed. This can't be in Quran, so Mohammad (s) and his message is not the Quran.

Musa (a) and Haroun (a) were both "Messengers" before they received the Torah or their respective revelation.... this shows their role of Messengers were not scripture.

There's a lot of evidence to show the role of clarification and message is the role of the Sunnah. Another clear distinction of the two is seen in role of Mohammad (s) as a ruler and judge, and this shown in 4:59-60. Referring to God's Messenger is different then referring to God. Coming to what is revealed from God (Quran) and the Messenger (Mohammad (s)) is necessary, and his judgment to be referred to, is not simply assessing Quran. People can assess Quran guided or misguided, it was necessary to refer the disputes to Mohammad (s) and submit to his judgment. Not simply God's book.

And this is the balance. Interpretation of Quran is important. While hadiths can be made up, so we need to rely on Quran, Quranic interpretations can be conjecture and off-point, and so need hadiths to support. Both are needed.

The Quran is clarified by Mohammad (s) so we need to rely on hadiths. And his family preserve the interpretation of Mohammad (s) and even expand on it. The other thing is because Mohammad's (s) words are calculated keeping in mind Quran, and Quran is a clarification of all things, we are to refer to Quran to see if a hadith is true.

Together this is the way to insights and clear guidance. The sent ones from God are to be given a voice for the revelation of God.

Mohammad (s) is emphasized to be seal of Anbiya, but in the same verse, it says he is a Messenger and didn't say he was the last Messenger. This indicates it's two different roles.

Also, punishment does not come in this world to a people without a Messenger. Yet Quran warns of destruction of all cities if they disbelieve and deny before day of judgment, and so a Messenger is coming.

This is the Mahdi. He is not a Nabi but is a Messenger.
 
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