When does organized religion become dangerous?

Father Heathen · May 23, 2022

mikkel_the_dane said:
Yeah, but that is the same with say orthodox communism.

And?

mikkel_the_dane · May 23, 2022

Father Heathen said:
And?

Religion is not special as dangerous, that was my point.

Heyo · May 23, 2022

Xavier Graham said:
When does an organized religion become dangerous?
I’ll use the Baha’i faith as an example for this thread.
Is the Baha’i faith dangerous? Should their political ideologies be opposed?
So, the Baha’is on this site are like some of the nicest people here, don’t get me wrong.
I was very interested in the Bahai faith at one point. They believe there should be a one world government which design is outlined in Baha’i scripture (at least from what I understand). This was a very attractive idea to me at first. However, looking back, I now see this as a possible danger to society.
Baha’is preach peace, sure, but what if Baha’u’llah is not a real prophet of God? Just some guy. There are only a few million Baha’is in the world right now, but imagine if there was a comparable number of them to let’s say, Christians (2 billion plus). We’d be in a lot of trouble I think.
One needs to only look at countries where religion has integrated itself with the political landscape. America has Christianity interwoven into their political system. Afghanistan is under Sharia (right?). Does mixing religion with politics ever result in anything good? No, they result in crusades and stuff like that.
I think this is when organized religion becomes dangerous. Supposing there is no prophet from god, then Mohammed and Baha’u’llah and other like figures are either delusional or con men. Either way, the influence that their religions wants to wield in politics is dangerous, not divinely directed.
I oppose the Baha’i world order, as well as any other religious order that seeks to exert its influence throughout the governments of the world.
Does that leave me opposing most religions?
What dangers of organized religion do you see?

It is entirely irrelevant whether there ever was a "True Prophet™" or what the original message was. Once an organization gains power, it changes. Holding on to the power becomes the first goal, no matter what it was before.

Polymath257 · May 23, 2022

The Hammer said:
Power in and of itself isn't a bad thing though. That can give us the ability to help communities on the large scale, as much as hinder them.

While true, power always becomes an end in itself. At that point it is usually an evil, rather than a good.

1213 · May 23, 2022

Xavier Graham said:
When does an organized religion become dangerous?
...

I don't think any religion is dangerous. People can be, especially when they are drunken with power, or desire to rule others. For them any religion or ideology can be useful for to oppress others. And this is why I think people should not centralize power in anyway. Power corrupts easily humans and it leads to lot of suffering. And that makes organizations like UN and WHO extremely dangerous.

Augustus · May 23, 2022

Xavier Graham said:
I feel religion is peculiar. It preys on people’s belief in God. Religion claims to be an intercessor for man and God. It plays on people’s hearts like that. Sure, some people have just as strong convictions about their political beliefs, but I still feel religion is in a category of its own. It’s this that makes it dangerous, because people will be willing to do anything for religion, such as support a global theocracy.

Can't say I find that persuasive.

It seems like people just assume religion is different somehow, but can't really offer much evidence to support it.

Many religions don't even have a God (or even god), and aren't even about beliefs.

Exaltist Ethan · May 23, 2022

Baha'is aren't just for a "one world government". Yeah, that is their idea of unity. But the prophet also saw the rise of a universal language, like English, a need for a global currency, equality between the sexes and a lot of very good things most people in liberal democratic nations would agree with. Baha'is also don't proselytize the same way a Jehovah Witness or a Mormon would either.

But to get back to the basic question. People have replied, especially the non-religious, if someone imposes that religious will onto others. Personally I don't see that itself being dangerous, unless you're in some dangerous cult. If someone thinks their pencil is God and wants to talk about their pencil all day, why and how is that dangerous?

Organized religion becomes dangerous if imposing their religion removes your ability to practice your own right towards negative liberty regarding religion. If a close friend tells you that you have to be of their religion or they can't spend time with you anymore, that is a direct threat on your freedom of religion, or negative liberty. There's more extreme examples out of there too but I'll leave it as such.

QuestioningMind · May 23, 2022

Xavier Graham said:
When does an organized religion become dangerous?
I’ll use the Baha’i faith as an example for this thread.
Is the Baha’i faith dangerous? Should their political ideologies be opposed?
So, the Baha’is on this site are like some of the nicest people here, don’t get me wrong.
I was very interested in the Bahai faith at one point. They believe there should be a one world government which design is outlined in Baha’i scripture (at least from what I understand). This was a very attractive idea to me at first. However, looking back, I now see this as a possible danger to society.
Baha’is preach peace, sure, but what if Baha’u’llah is not a real prophet of God? Just some guy. There are only a few million Baha’is in the world right now, but imagine if there was a comparable number of them to let’s say, Christians (2 billion plus). We’d be in a lot of trouble I think.
One needs to only look at countries where religion has integrated itself with the political landscape. America has Christianity interwoven into their political system. Afghanistan is under Sharia (right?). Does mixing religion with politics ever result in anything good? No, they result in crusades and stuff like that.
I think this is when organized religion becomes dangerous. Supposing there is no prophet from god, then Mohammed and Baha’u’llah and other like figures are either delusional or con men. Either way, the influence that their religions wants to wield in politics is dangerous, not divinely directed.
I oppose the Baha’i world order, as well as any other religious order that seeks to exert its influence throughout the governments of the world.
Does that leave me opposing most religions?
What dangers of organized religion do you see?

At the point where it gets people to abandon logic and rational thinking in favor of faith. Once people begin to ignore logic and reasoned thought in one aspect of their lives it becomes easier to ignore it in other parts of their lives. That's how you get Q-Anon followers and millions of people insisting that the last election in this country was stolen.

Fool · May 23, 2022

Xavier Graham said:
When does an organized religion become dangerous?
I’ll use the Baha’i faith as an example for this thread.
Is the Baha’i faith dangerous? Should their political ideologies be opposed?
So, the Baha’is on this site are like some of the nicest people here, don’t get me wrong.
I was very interested in the Bahai faith at one point. They believe there should be a one world government which design is outlined in Baha’i scripture (at least from what I understand). This was a very attractive idea to me at first. However, looking back, I now see this as a possible danger to society.
Baha’is preach peace, sure, but what if Baha’u’llah is not a real prophet of God? Just some guy. There are only a few million Baha’is in the world right now, but imagine if there was a comparable number of them to let’s say, Christians (2 billion plus). We’d be in a lot of trouble I think.
One needs to only look at countries where religion has integrated itself with the political landscape. America has Christianity interwoven into their political system. Afghanistan is under Sharia (right?). Does mixing religion with politics ever result in anything good? No, they result in crusades and stuff like that.
I think this is when organized religion becomes dangerous. Supposing there is no prophet from god, then Mohammed and Baha’u’llah and other like figures are either delusional or con men. Either way, the influence that their religions wants to wield in politics is dangerous, not divinely directed.
I oppose the Baha’i world order, as well as any other religious order that seeks to exert its influence throughout the governments of the world.
Does that leave me opposing most religions?
What dangers of organized religion do you see?

religion, whether organized or not, becomes dangerous when it is used to override someone else's free will and autonomy to be who they are and doesn't directly harm other as self

firedragon · May 23, 2022

Xavier Graham said:
When does an organized religion become dangerous?
I’ll use the Baha’i faith as an example for this thread.
Is the Baha’i faith dangerous? Should their political ideologies be opposed?
So, the Baha’is on this site are like some of the nicest people here, don’t get me wrong.
I was very interested in the Bahai faith at one point. They believe there should be a one world government which design is outlined in Baha’i scripture (at least from what I understand). This was a very attractive idea to me at first. However, looking back, I now see this as a possible danger to society.
Baha’is preach peace, sure, but what if Baha’u’llah is not a real prophet of God? Just some guy. There are only a few million Baha’is in the world right now, but imagine if there was a comparable number of them to let’s say, Christians (2 billion plus). We’d be in a lot of trouble I think.
One needs to only look at countries where religion has integrated itself with the political landscape. America has Christianity interwoven into their political system. Afghanistan is under Sharia (right?). Does mixing religion with politics ever result in anything good? No, they result in crusades and stuff like that.
I think this is when organized religion becomes dangerous. Supposing there is no prophet from god, then Mohammed and Baha’u’llah and other like figures are either delusional or con men. Either way, the influence that their religions wants to wield in politics is dangerous, not divinely directed.
I oppose the Baha’i world order, as well as any other religious order that seeks to exert its influence throughout the governments of the world.
Does that leave me opposing most religions?
What dangers of organized religion do you see?

Religion becomes dangerous when religion wishes to kill religions. This happened in Russia. Stalin murdered millions. More than Hitler. It happened in China. Mao murdered more than hitler.

When people call themselves anti-religious, they are still being religious.

Anyway, when it comes to the Bahai faith which is not really relevant to the topic, I don't know if the universal rule doctrine came from Bahaullah or later. There is no real manuscript dating that I could find. I have seen the manuscripts that some of my friends sent me, but none of them are dated. So it's not really solid to say he did or did not. It's just a matter of faith.

Bahai's are largely uneducated on their own scripture. That's the problem in this polemical exchange.

Anyway, you should know that history has shown us that only seven percent of all wars recorded in history has been attributed to religion.

Cheers.

Twilight Hue · May 23, 2022

Xavier Graham said:
When does an organized religion become dangerous?
I’ll use the Baha’i faith as an example for this thread.
Is the Baha’i faith dangerous? Should their political ideologies be opposed?
So, the Baha’is on this site are like some of the nicest people here, don’t get me wrong.
I was very interested in the Bahai faith at one point. They believe there should be a one world government which design is outlined in Baha’i scripture (at least from what I understand). This was a very attractive idea to me at first. However, looking back, I now see this as a possible danger to society.
Baha’is preach peace, sure, but what if Baha’u’llah is not a real prophet of God? Just some guy. There are only a few million Baha’is in the world right now, but imagine if there was a comparable number of them to let’s say, Christians (2 billion plus). We’d be in a lot of trouble I think.
One needs to only look at countries where religion has integrated itself with the political landscape. America has Christianity interwoven into their political system. Afghanistan is under Sharia (right?). Does mixing religion with politics ever result in anything good? No, they result in crusades and stuff like that.
I think this is when organized religion becomes dangerous. Supposing there is no prophet from god, then Mohammed and Baha’u’llah and other like figures are either delusional or con men. Either way, the influence that their religions wants to wield in politics is dangerous, not divinely directed.
I oppose the Baha’i world order, as well as any other religious order that seeks to exert its influence throughout the governments of the world.
Does that leave me opposing most religions?
What dangers of organized religion do you see?

When it gets possessive of individuals.

Viker · May 23, 2022

It becomes dangerous when it uses majoritarianism to deny minority belief systems equal treatment. "Majority rules!" is only the chant of tyranny.

Ella S. · May 23, 2022

I think this is subjective.

In my opinion, life is dangerous, and having any set of values creates danger not just for the person, but it also creates conflict with those who disagree.

"Live and let live" is not a realistic philosophy. We cannot avoid conflict and conflict is inherently dangerous; although some conflicts may pose more of a threat than others, we should never allow ourselves to fall into the illusion that we are somehow safe and in control of our external circumstances.

Instead, we should be cultivating control of our own thoughts and actions, so that danger and its consequences can no longer conquer us.

ppp · May 23, 2022

Xavier Graham said:
When does an organized religion become dangerous?

When it says there are is's or oughts.

ppp · May 23, 2022

Ella S. said:
Instead, we should be cultivating control of our own thoughts and actions, so that danger and its consequences can no longer conquer us.

That sounds completely unrealistic. There are all sorts of things that can conquer you no matter your thoughts or your actions.

Ella S. · May 23, 2022

Policy said:
That sounds completely unrealistic. There are all sorts of things that can conquer you no matter your thoughts or your actions.

That is irrelevant to my point about striving to shift our focus onto what we have genuine control over.

ppp · May 23, 2022

Ella S. said:
That is irrelevant to my point about striving to shift our focus onto what we have genuine control over.

Ah. Your last sentence sounded like you thought there was some way to avoided all consequences.

TagliatelliMonster · May 24, 2022

Augustus said:
Nothing unique.

Religions cause harm when they promote things that cause harm. They do good when they promote things that do good.

Same as any other belief system.

There isn't even any meaningful way to differentiate a religious from a non-religious belief system imo.

I kind of disagree.
For me, a big part of ethics, morals and values are the motivations that underpins them.

To give a simplistic example....
If a society wants to outlaw anything, like rape for example, one should ALWAYS - no matter the subject - ask the question "why"? And that question should have a well reasoned answer.

"because our holy book forbids it" is not a good answer.

So when you say that when a religion (out of religious conviction / principle / belief) does good things, then I don't consider them good by default. If the motivation is corrupt then I can't consider it good - no matter the outcome.

Especially when it comes to organizing society, I think the motivation / reasoning behind the rules imposed are far more important then the rules themselves.

Religions / theocracies tend to impose rules based on whatever their holy books / stories say. They'll outlaw / allow certain activities not because of a well-reasoned argument and / or rational motivation to do so, but rather only because they feel like their god / religious rules requires them to do so.

That is really what the danger is when religious organization amass too much power. Not really the rules they implement themselves, but rather the reason why.

To put it simplistically: if the reason they outlaw rape is "because god says so", then there is nothing moral about that. If such a "motivation" for installing a rule is acceptable... then one has NO ARGUMENT against for example allowing slavery if the god in question happens to think slavery is not a problem.

It's a can of worms.

So, if the question here is "when does organized religion become dangerous", my answer is: when they gain too much power in combination with the idea that it is acceptable to impose rules with as motivation "because god says so".

Today he says "be nice to people".
Tomorrow he might say "commit genocide and infanticide to people X because they are against me".

mikkel_the_dane · May 24, 2022

TagliatelliMonster said:
I kind of disagree.
For me, a big part of ethics, morals and values are the motivations that underpins them.

To give a simplistic example....
If a society wants to outlaw anything, like rape for example, one should ALWAYS - no matter the subject - ask the question "why"? And that question should have a well reasoned answer.

"because our holy book forbids it" is not a good answer.

So when you say that when a religion (out of religious conviction / principle / belief) does good things, then I don't consider them good by default. If the motivation is corrupt then I can't consider it good - no matter the outcome.

Especially when it comes to organizing society, I think the motivation / reasoning behind the rules imposed are far more important then the rules themselves.

Religions / theocracies tend to impose rules based on whatever their holy books / stories say. They'll outlaw / allow certain activities not because of a well-reasoned argument and / or rational motivation to do so, but rather only because they feel like their god / religious rules requires them to do so.

That is really what the danger is when religious organization amass too much power. Not really the rules they implement themselves, but rather the reason why.

To put it simplistically: if the reason they outlaw rape is "because god says so", then there is nothing moral about that. If such a "motivation" for installing a rule is acceptable... then one has NO ARGUMENT against for example allowing slavery if the god in question happens to think slavery is not a problem.

It's a can of worms.

So, if the question here is "when does organized religion become dangerous", my answer is: when they gain too much power in combination with the idea that it is acceptable to impose rules with as motivation "because god says so".

Today he says "be nice to people".
Tomorrow he might say "commit genocide and infanticide to people X because they are against me".

How do you solve the fact value distinction?

TransmutingSoul · May 24, 2022

Nakosis said:
I think when they've gained he ability to enforce their beliefs on others.

That is not the Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

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