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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
[

The stats I've seen say that the single-celled organism has the smallest known genome of any free-living organism still has 1,308,759 base pairs of DNA. It's not unlikely, it's impossible.
Actually, the smallest currently known is 159,662, but that is irrelevant. Even if something is extremely unlikely it is still possible.

The issue is pretty simple.
1. We know life exists.
2. If it started to exist, it must have come from a state of non-life.
3. Either that occurred through natural processes or by magic.
4. We have mountains of evidence for natural processes causing extraordinary and unlikely things, but zero evidence of anything being caused by magic.
5. Therefore, while both explanations are possible, natural processes is the more likely and more reasonable.

If you disagree, you must explain which of those 5 points fails.
Good luck!
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Sigh One last time. I will not do this again, for you. Okay?
  1. The marvelous design in creation. The testify to an intelligent designer whose qualities are clearly seen in his works.
  2. The truthfulness, and reliability of the Bible, seen in its overall harmony, historical accuracy, scientific accuracy, prophetic accuracy, timeless practical value, and candor of those who penned it.
*sigh*
One last time...

Those are not "evidence", they are "opinion" of a layman. There are people who are qualified and expert in both those fields who absolutely disagree, and can provide evidence to support their position. You can only provide assertion and belief.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Richard Carrier is an atheist, skeptic and activist, wouldn’t call him a un-biased source of scholarship.

Carrier only decided Christianity was a myth AFTER reading the entire Bible. I don't know how being a "skeptic" would in any way be a negative point to raise? Skeptic doesn't mean you don't believe things, it means you don't fall for nonsense that lacks evidence? I'm sure you are fine with scholars who are skeptical of Islam, Hinduism or any other competing claim at being the one true religion.
And yes, he is un-biased. He believes things that demonstrate good evidence? That's all it takes? A reasonable argument with evidence? Do you consider historians who don't literally believe in Islam to be biased? Or is that ok? It's just your bunch of ancient myths that if scholars don't buy into they are "bias"? As if it's Carriers fault that your religion is easily debunked on every front?

The Biblical historicity field has a consensus, the Gospel Jesus is a myth. There may have been a man who the Greek/Persian legends were put onto but those tales are fiction. Carrier and Lataster also agree with Mythicism but Ehrman, Pagels, Crossan, Thompson, Purvoe, Price and so on do not believe the supernatural tales are anything but mythology.





Definitely not the consensus of all biblical scholarship and the way he communicates shows this as well.
You didn't read it. If you did you would have immediately noticed this isn't his work for one:

"Principal peer-reviewed sources I rely on in this article are C.L. Seow’s Daniel by Westminster Knox Press (2003) and John Collins’ Daniel by Fortress Press (1993), part of the excellent Hermeneia commentary series. See also The Book of Daniel: Composition and Reception, vols. 1 and 2 (Brill, 2002), edited by John Collins and Peter Flint. This is all mainstream scholarly consensus now."



He just pulls several sources into an article. Second, yes it IS the consensus in Biblical historicity. A peer-reviewed PhD historian is literally saying it here?

"Only biblical fundamentalists and similarly desperate believers still hold out hope that Daniel was actually written by an actual Daniel when it purports to have been. Mainstream scholarship has long since left them behind."

Carrier does a debate on youtube with Sheffield on Daniel. Sheffield is a theologian and a believer and desperately tries to study the historicity and make arguments. He is a nice guy and he tries but he isn't a historian and he didn't make any good arguments. If he had one he would write a paper and submit it for review.
Daniel is a forgery. This isn't a big deal. Half of the Epistles are considered forgeries by Christian scholarship. There are 38 other Gospels considered herecy by the Church. The Acts of Peter almost made the original Bible in 367 AD when it was put together. It's ancient apocryphal writings but got cut and is considered inauthentic. Even by Christian standards there are a lot of forgeries.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Wildswanderer said:
Actually no ..if life comes from God it comes from another life.

Leaving aside the complete lack of evidence, and the fact this appeal to mystery has no explanatory powers, since goddidit is not an answer it's a claim, where in your superstitious fantasy did this deity (life) come from? Or is this to involve the usual special pleading fallacy theists use for first cause arguments.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I put a lot more credence in other scholars instead of a 50 year old activist. You don’t just throw out all the previous scholarship for thousands of years and all of the sudden he has some new finding.
The field is in consensus. Carrier, Ehrman, Pagels, Thompson (Moses is myth), Price, Goodacre (Mark is the source Gospel), Purvoe (Acts is historical fiction), Crossan, Lataster, Sanders, Wright, Fransesca Stravopouou

Dr Carrier on the field:

"
When the question of the historicity of Jesus comes up in an honest professional context, we are not asking whether the Gospel Jesus existed. All non-fundamentalist scholars agree that that Jesus never did exist. Christian apologetics is pseudo-history. No different than defending Atlantis. Or Moroni. Or women descending from Adam’s rib.

No. We aren’t interested in that.

When it comes to Jesus, just as with anyone else, real history is about trying to figure out what, if anything, we can really know about the man depicted in the New Testament (his actual life and teachings), through untold layers of distortion and mythmaking; and what, if anything, we can know about his role in starting the Christian movement that spread after his death. Consequently, I will here disregard fundamentalists and apologists as having no honest part in this debate, any more than they do on evolution or cosmology or anything else they cannot be honest about even to themselves."

Historicity Big and Small: How Historians Try to Rescue Jesus • Richard Carrier
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
[

The stats I've seen say that the single-celled organism has the smallest known genome of any free-living organism still has 1,308,759 base pairs of DNA. It's not unlikely, it's impossible.

Argument from incredulity fallacy. Also how does adding inexplicable magic with no explanatory powers from a completely unevidenced deity, make things more likely than an as yet unknown natural process?

Oh wait it doesn't obviously, unless one were barking mad.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
There is no need to falsify your presuppositions. They're faith-based beliefs, insufficiently evidenced guesses.

A presupposition is not a belief. My presupposition remains that God exists. As of yet, I have found no evidence to the contrary. I have no compelling reasons to change my view.

However, you make unsubstantiated conclusions about the substance of my knowledge of God as if you know me.

I am not the one denying the documented history of salvation. It's up to you to show that the biblical history of salvation is indeed wrong. Be my guest.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
It's still life coming from a pre existing life no matter how it happened.
So are you claiming that god and something else had sex, and the first life on earth was their baby?
Or are you claiming that god had the ability to indirectly and remotely cause life to start where there was previously no life?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
All of the Apostles plus many more were eye witnesses, the 3000 that believed at Pentecost were eye witnesses to the Holy Spirit being given with visible signs.


-The Apostles are people Paul claimed also saw "visions" of ghost Jesus.
-Acts is the most fictive of all using Homer and other known sources of fiction. The 3000 is a claim written in a myth. Islamic stories also tell of hundreds of witnesses to the Angel Gabrielle and Allah. BTW they claim Christians and Jews have screwed up Gods message and are liars. If your anecdotal claims from myths count than Islamic claims also count. Those are ancient stories. Written as fiction.
Paul was one abnormally born as he said, met Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus and was changed at that moment. All the Apostles welcomed him and recognized that Jesus had in fact met Paul and from there became a mighty Apostle himself. I gave you a list of biblical scholars so you could do some checking on their scholarships. Paul has written many in the Bible right there.

Paul never met Jesus. He saw "visions" of a ghost Jesus already in heaven. As did his buddies. So now revelatory claims are valid evidence? Cool because Islam is founded on Muhammad having a visit from the angel Gabrielle and getting updates on Christianity/Judaism. Also Mormonism is a revelation to Joe Smith from the angel Moroni.
So all these claims are equally valid. See what happens when you let your standard of evidence drop to the floor?

Biblical scholars are theologians. They study scripture as if it's true. They do not care about actual evidence, they accept claims. Islamic theologians do the same. They accept ridiculous claims and declare they have the ultimate truth. This is every revelatory religion. Historians look at evidence, comparitive religion, what historians of the day were saying, what actual evidence exists. They do not believe religions are anything but mythology.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You mean the previous scholars that walked with Jesus and wrote the Bible or scholars closer to the events weren’t the answers they wanted to hear so they got answers from their own bias.



People that walked with Jesus are stories from mythology. Paul knows of no earthly Jesus in any of the authentic Epistles, just visions from a ghost. 1 humann lifetime later come the gospels, anonymous, non eyewitness, highly mythic in literary style and content and the Synoptic Problem has shown Matthew and Luke are just re-writes of Mark.
We also don't take the myths from Islam serious and do not think the angel Gabrielle actually gave revelations to Muhammad. But neither claim is any stronger.
You seem to think people closer to the actual time had the truth? That's odd, why would the 2nd century be 50% Gnostic Christians?

These various interpretations were called heresies by the leaders of the proto-orthodox church, but many were very popular and had large followings. Part of the unifying trend in proto-orthodoxy was an increasingly harsh anti-Judaism and rejection of Judaizers. Some of the major movements were:

In the middle of the second century, the Christian communities of Rome, for example, were divided between followers of Marcion, Montanism, and the gnostic teachings of Valentinus.

The council of Nicea wasn't when they picked the canon, it was in 367AD. It's believed it was for political reasons. Another theory by historians is that the 4 most popular churches were chosen and each one was using a different Gospel, so those 4 were used. The idea that they were "weeding out" false doctrine is absurd. That isn't mentioned in historical essays on these councils? That is pure fantasy.


It really doesn’t mean much to me what unbelievers say other than I can spot the lies easy enough. It’s easy to spot a fraud who doesn’t know and never has met the Lord Jesus Christ.


I've met Jesus in my mind when I was Christian. It is all in the mind. Later I met people who also had relationships with Krishna and Allah just as intense as any Christian was about their "relationship" with Jesus. When you imagine you are in communication with a deity your mind plays along. You could actually do it with a different God if you tried.
So you need to provide evidence if you claim contact with a supernatural entity.

Nice that you can come to a debate forum, act surprised, defensive and angry when people debate you, call others fraud and THEN act superior because you have a ghost friend.
Now if it doesn't mean much what unbelievers say why in the creaking world would you go to a debate forum?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
A presupposition is not a belief.

Yes it is, it is an a priori assumption that something is the case, or true.

My presupposition remains that God exists. As of yet, I have found no evidence to the contrary. I have no compelling reasons to change my view.

It's an unevidenced assumption, that seems a pretty good reason not to accept it. Why would you need contrary evidence to an presupposition, that's the very definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy? Ipos facto it is irrational by definition.

However, you make unsubstantiated conclusions about the substance of my knowledge of God as if you know me.

You claimed it was a presupposition? If you had knowledge that would be mutually exclusive with a presupposition, since you could demonstrate the facts, and no such facts have been demonstrated, only subjective unevidenced claims. So I have no alternative but to disbelieve your claim for knowledge, until or if you ever demonstrate this knowledge.

I am not the one denying the documented history of salvation.

It isn't objective evidence for a deity, since humans have imagined countless deities and religions, and faith and presuppositions would validate them all just as effectively.
It's up to you to show that the biblical history of salvation is indeed wrong.

No, you're back to using an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy again.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I have checked all this, don’t share your view. OT and NT compliment each other perfectly.


Yeah in the OT heaven is for God only and humans go to the gravesite after death. Satan is an agent of God doing his dirty work - a plague, torturing Job. God is the only thing to be worshipped.

Then in the NT it's all Greek/Persian myths?
dying/rising savior demigods who rise in 3 days getting followers into heaven - Greek
baptism - Greek
eucharist - Greek
world saviors virgin born - Persian
general resurrection at the end of the world and everyone lives in paradise - PErsian
God at war with Satan - Persian
God is supreme and uncreated - Persian
Salvation - Greek
redeemed souls that can go to heaven - Greek
the word becomes flesh - Greek

Sorry, the OT is based on Mesopotamian and Babylonian myths. The NT is all PErsian and Hellenistic myths. Both cultures occupied the Hebrew nations from 500BC to 100 BC. It's known in scholarship that both cultures myths pre-date Christianity, influenced Christianity and the Christianity is the last of the Hellenized religions in the area.
No the OT and NT. do not compliment each other.

The only compliment is during the Persian occupation the Hebrews saw that the Persians had predicted a world savior and wouldn't you know the Hebrews also started writing predictions about a messianic savior. Wow, what a coincidence??
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
A presupposition is not a belief. My presupposition remains that God exists. As of yet, I have found no evidence to the contrary. I have no compelling reasons to change my view.

However, you make unsubstantiated conclusions about the substance of my knowledge of God as if you know me.

I am not the one denying the documented history of salvation. It's up to you to show that the biblical history of salvation is indeed wrong. Be my guest.


Well it can be shown it's adapted from Hellenism. From 300-100BC Hellenism was sweeping through all religions. The changes that Judaism went through happened to many religions.
The Britannica entry on Hellenism detains some of the common changes, it describes Christianity exactly:

Hellenistic religion - Beliefs, practices, and institutions
This shows all the Christian concepts come from Hellenism, a trend sweeping through all religions from 300 BC - 100Ad. This is why the "mystery religions" also had dying/rising sons/daughters of their one true God. Like Judaism they started out using Mesopotamian myths and then adopted Greek and Persian myths as well.



-the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.


-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.


-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.


-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme



-The temples and cult institutions of the various Hellenistic religions were repositories of the knowledge and techniques necessary for salvation and were the agents of the public worship of a particular deity. In addition, they served an important sociological role. In the new, cosmopolitan ideology that followed Alexander’s conquests, the old nationalistic and ethnic boundaries had broken down and the problem of religious and social identity had become acute.


-Most of these groups had regular meetings for a communal meal that served the dual role of sacramental participation (referring to the use of material elements believed to convey spiritual benefits among the members and with their deity)


-Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century


- The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.


-Other traditions even more radically reinterpreted the ancient figures. The cosmic or seasonal drama was interiorized to refer to the divine soul within man that must be liberated.


-Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)


-and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events)


- Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—whose preaching corresponded to the activities of various Greek and Roman philosophic missionaries


the concept of souls that can be redeemed and go to heaven is another Greek invention the Hebrews adopted. From Sanders and Wrights work:

During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]

Heaven - Wikipedia


only in Hellenistic times (after c. 330 BCE) did Jews begin to adopt the Greek idea that it would be a place of punishment for misdeeds, and that the righteous would enjoy an afterlife in heaven.[
Sang Meyng Lee, Born 1963; 2005-2008 Adjunct Professor at San Francisco Theological Seminary, Pasadena;
 

Five Solas

Active Member
Hebrews 11:1 NIV. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.


It’s terrible to see how people use and abuse this verse without bothering to understand the context. Please refrain from quoting it if you are too lazy to understand the correct meaning of it.


This text speaks of real, saving faith in God. Each example of biblical faith in this chapter demonstrates trust, based on what that person knew about how God acted in the past and the reassurance that God would act in the same way now or in the future.


That is evidence-based faith!!!!


The "assurance" of saving faith is, therefore, not blind belief. It is based on the proof found in history. It is the belief that God cannot change and can be trusted to on doing what He had done in the past.


A study of the various characters mentioned in this chapter shows that they all had good reasons to trust in God. Their faith was based on past experiences.


We find the same thing many times in Scripture – the confidence that God will make good on His promises.


The great figures of the Old Testament, such as Abraham, Moses, and David, all lived according to this type of faith. This is saving faith that inspires real Christians towards a more confident faith.


In this context: Faith accepts things that are promised by God but are still unfulfilled.
 
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