Satan serpent..

SoulTYPE · Jan 8, 2005

I am certain that Satan was the serpent in Genesis. I would just lke to share with thee who do not believe it how I got this opinion..

But first, let us start here:
"He was thrown down to earth, and all his angels with him. (Rev. 12: 9)

Satan was an angel, much like God, and could appear in the form of another beast. Hewas always there, but was thrown down to Earth. Now following what
I believe, Satan DID have the possibility of appearing as the serpent in Genesis. As he was an opposing "angel"?Johns reference to the ancient serpent can only mean the serpent in the Garden of Eden. (Genesis 3: 1-20)
Eve was taken in with Satan's reasoning; especially when "the serpent said unto the woman,Ye shall not surely die:"(Gen.3:4)

Was Satan not trying to cease life's existance at the source? (indirectly). God was trying to create a world for humans to live and breathe, and reproduce, and Satan began his jealousy and adversary to foil God's plan?

Thankyou for your time

pensive · Jan 8, 2005

SoulTYPE01 said:
I am certain that Satan was the serpent in Genesis. I would just lke to share with thee who do not believe it how I got this opinion..

But first, let us start here:
"He was thrown down to earth, and all his angels with him. (Rev. 12: 9)

Satan was an angel, much like God, and could appear in the form of another beast. Hewas always there, but was thrown down to Earth. Now following what
I believe, Satan DID have the possibility of appearing as the serpent in Genesis. As he was an opposing "angel"?Johns reference to the ancient serpent can only mean the serpent in the Garden of Eden. (Genesis 3: 1-20)
Eve was taken in with Satan's reasoning; especially when "the serpent said unto the woman,Ye shall not surely die:"(Gen.3:4)

Was Satan not trying to cease life's existance at the source? (indirectly). God was trying to create a world for humans to live and breathe, and reproduce, and Satan began his jealousy and adversary to foil God's plan?

Thankyou for your time

Personally, I'd be a little careful connectiong "serpent" in one of the book of the Bible and "serpent" in another book of the Bible and assuming they're talking about the same serpent. After all, if you do that with "Morning Star"....

"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! (Isaiah 14:12, NAS)

I, [size=-1]R1145[/size] Jesus, have sent My [size=-1]R1146[/size] angel to testify to you these things for [size=-1]R1147[/size] [size=-1]F264[/size] the churches. I am the [size=-1]R1148[/size] root and the descendant [size=-1]R1149[/size] of David, the bright morning [size=-1]R1150[/size] star. (Revelation 22:16, NAS)

...you could quickly draw the conclusion that Jesus and Satan were the same person as well.

I'm not saying that Satan wasn't the serpent in the Garden of Eden, mind you. I don't know. But I'd personally look for more than a verse or two that refer to Satan as a serpent. Especially if those verses are coming from such a symbol-rich/prophetic book as Revelation.

t3gah · Jan 8, 2005

pensive said:
Personally, I'd be a little careful connectiong "serpent" in one of the book of the Bible and "serpent" in another book of the Bible and assuming they're talking about the same serpent. After all, if you do that with "Morning Star"....

...you could quickly draw the conclusion that Jesus and Satan were the same person as well.

I'm not saying that Satan wasn't the serpent in the Garden of Eden, mind you. I don't know. But I'd personally look for more than a verse or two that refer to Satan as a serpent. Especially if those verses are coming from such a symbol-rich/prophetic book as Revelation.

God uses the word 'serpent' to denote the kind of person that's perpetrating this bad deed. In Revelation 12:9 the text goes on to explain that the serpent is a deceiver. Just like real snakes. But that's what I've discovered in my research. You'd have to really think about why God would call it or whomever a serpent in Genesis and then in Revelation as well. There are other serpents mentioned in other scriptures but they are denoting the real animal because the rest of those verses talk about it in the sense of a animal. I guess one would have to use a dictionary to look up the word 'serpent'.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=serpent

[size=-1]Revelation 12:9 (World English Bible)[/size]
[size=-1]The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. [/size]

[size=-1]2 Corinthians 11:3[/size][size=-1] (World English Bible)[/size]
[size=-1]But I am afraid that by any means, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is toward Christ. [/size]

[size=-1]Revelation 12:14[/size][size=-1] (World English Bible)[/size]
[size=-1]Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.[/size]

Morning Stars are all the angels.

[size=-1]Job 38:7 [/size][size=-1](World English Bible)[/size]
[size=-1]When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? [/size]

Jayhawker Soule · Jan 8, 2005

t3gah said:
Morning Stars are all the angels.

Good grief! See, for example, "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12-17; Translation and Ideology.

t3gah · Jan 8, 2005

In case you don't have a concordance on hand I looked up serpent and serpents for you:

serpent & serpents

Ge 3:4
Ge 3:13
Ex 4:3
Nu 21:9
2Ki 18:4
Isa 65:25
Mic 7:17
Mt 10:16
Mt 23:33
Joh 3:14
Re 12:9
Re 20:2
Ge 3:1
Ps 58:4
Pr 23:32
2Co 11:3

t3gah · Jan 8, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
Good grief! See, for example, "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12-17; Translation and Ideology.

That link doesn't talk about Job 38:7 where the verse mentions Morning Star in the plural sense, stars.

King James Version

[size=-1]Job 38:1[/size]
[size=-1]Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,[/size]

[size=-1][size=-1]Job 38:2[/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?[/size][/size]

[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Job 38:3[/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.[/size][/size][/size]

[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Job 38:4[/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.[/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Job 38:5[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Job 38:6[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Job 38:7[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Job 38:8[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb?[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Job 38:9[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

Jayhawker Soule · Jan 8, 2005

t3gah said:
That link doesn't talk about Job 38:7 where the verse mentions Morning Star in the plural sense, stars. [/indent]

Perhaps because its author can walk and chew gum at the same time. Meanwhile, you (predictably) avoid addressing his points.

linwood · Jan 8, 2005

Yep.

What pensive said.

I also thank pensve for saying it

pensive said:
Personally, I'd be a little careful connectiong "serpent" in one of the book of the Bible and "serpent" in another book of the Bible and assuming they're talking about the same serpent. After all, if you do that with "Morning Star"....

...you could quickly draw the conclusion that Jesus and Satan were the same person as well.

I'm not saying that Satan wasn't the serpent in the Garden of Eden, mind you. I don't know. But I'd personally look for more than a verse or two that refer to Satan as a serpent. Especially if those verses are coming from such a symbol-rich/prophetic book as Revelation.

t3gah · Jan 8, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
Perhaps because its author can walk and chew gum at the same time. Meanwhile, you (predictably) avoid addressing his points.

Should I agree with you that Morning Star is used in the bible more than one time to denote all kinds of things other than angels? Yup it is.

I did read the bit about babylon and lucifer. I have since deleted that other message about satan and isaiah 14:12. As for Job 38:7, the point still stands. The angels are morning stars too. If not then why does the verse say it?

[size=-1]Job 38:7 ASV
When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?[/size]

Jayhawker Soule · Jan 8, 2005

t3gah said:
Should I agree with you that Morning Star is used in the bible more than one time to denote all kinds of things other than angels? Yup it is. I did read the bit about babylon and lucifer. I have since deleted that other message about satan and isaiah 14:12.

Excellent response. I'm impressed.

Ronald · Jan 8, 2005

Don't forget this one!

Re 22:16 "I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star."

linwood · Jan 8, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
Good grief! See, for example, "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12-17; Translation and Ideology.

Where was this during my Satan in Eden thread?

Thanks deut

SoulTYPE · Jan 9, 2005

oracle said:
Rather the fall is simply a birth process and human suffering, the pangs of birth unto which a consciousness that is divided amongst itself had been born.

Please er..rephrase your statement..

oracle said:
Satan is not literally a being, but the self-will (selfish) state of mind all of us have symbolized into this one entity.

Well..he WAS a being..

oracle said:
Satan is often pictured symbolically as a satyr, a humanoid being with the head of a goat and with goat legs, who are associated with Dionysus (the greek god fo ecstasy, wine, and music). Satan has also been represented as a semi-circle( a symbol of incompleteness) a cat, and dragons. Other symbols include an upside down pentagram and a caduceus protruding from the genitals.

Yes, I think the little red demon with a pitchfork is way too pathetic too.

[/QUOTE]

oracle said:
After eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve's eyes opened, and they became aware that they were naked.So in the end, it was a blessing that Eve ate the forbidden fruit, or we would be forever condemned to these limitations,.

Just a little question on that..are we meant to beashamed of being naked? I am certain we would not be able to live naked in these times...[/QUOTE]

oracle said:
and that is also why the serpent is also a symbol for the evolution of consciousness.

Your key word..

Jayhawker Soule · Jan 9, 2005

oracle said:
First off it is known (even by jewish rabbis) that the book of genisis is allegory; ...

Then you should have no trouble verifying this Rabbinic perspective and explaining its conspicuous absence in Totah commentary.

Secondly, all allegory is based on the literary idiom of the people who use them. Perhaps you could suggest the foundation of Jewish (or West Semitic) literatary scholarship upon which you base what otherwise seems indistinguishable from superficial, new age association and speculation.

Everyone has the right to an opinion: not all opinions are created equal.

oracle · Jan 9, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
Then you should have no trouble verifying this Rabbinic perspective and explaining its conspicuous absence in Totah commentary.

Secondly, all allegory is based on the literary idiom of the people who use them. Perhaps you could suggest the foundation of Jewish (or West Semitic) literatary scholarship upon which you base what otherwise seems indistinguishable from superficial, new age association and speculation.

Everyone has the right to an opinion: not all opinions are created equal.

Its too bad you criticize it for being new age. Allegory is a very ancient practice, it's not very new at all. Calling it new age is just like someone claiming that Santa Clause and Christmas are the work of the Devil. You obviously are conservative in belief, you are bound to your own limited perspective.

Commentary found in "The Chumash (the Stone Edition)"
Genesis 6-8. Second Day The heavens had been created on the first day, but they were still in a state of flux. On the second day, at God's command, "Let there be a firmament," they solidified, creating a division between the waters above and the waters below (Rashi). According to Ramban, however, the seperation mentioned in this verse is between the wholly spiritual, extraterrestrial aspects of creation and the tangible world that is within the province of Man [which would include even the furthest reaches of the solar system]. He states, "Do no expect me to write anything about [the creation of the second day] since Scripture itself did not elaborate upon it... The verses in the literal sense do not require such an explanation. Those who understand the explantation are forbidden to reveal it. For those of us who do not understand, [it is forbidden to speculate about the unknown]. " Ramban's implication is clear: The "firmament" and the "upper and lower waters" are among the mysteries of creation that are either unknowable to Man or must be limited to those qualified to know them.
Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy.
Thus an allegory is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning. http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/lit_terms/allegory.html

oracle · Jan 9, 2005

SoulTYPE01 said:
Well..he WAS a being..

On a literal aspect, yes. However the metaphor of it is pointing to a state of mind which was the cause of the fall, the collective of this state of mind symbolized into one entity. In other words, selfishness.

What is the motive for all sin? Selfishness. So selfishness is the cause of all disobedience towards God. Here are some presentations I did a while back. They are a bit odler than my current views, although they are much the same.

I would suggest studying mysticism before calling it New Age. I was like that once, very conservative, calling everything outside the literal sense New Age and of the devil, untill I sat down and studied it. Then I realized Kabbalism, Sufism, and Gnosticism is more profound and makes more sense then Orthodoxy. That is why I consider myself a Christian Mystic, and the orthodox views didn't quench my thirst for spiritual knowledge, rather orthodoxy is contradictive, orthodox interpretations become inconsistent with their other interpretations, and doesn't make much logical sense. Their mistake is that they take the bible too literal and excuse any of the metaphorical. In fact, there is a metaphorical coding throughout the bible, but only few ever see the patturn. I wouldn't blame them though, this society is highly discriminent against the ride side of the brain, the part of the brain that recognizes patturns. I happen to be extremely right-brained. That is why I recognize the underlying theme for all sin, which is the motive (Selfishness). The bible states that all sin is the same in God's eyes. Why is that so? Because He looks not at the works, but at the motives. And if you recognize the motive of every sin is a selfish one, then you realize that it is not the outer workings that constitue the verdict of a sin being a sin, but the internal motives of the heart. We commit sin in our hearts before the sin is even committed, by being selfish.

This is who Satan is, because Satan is the seed of all evil, and likewise the motive of all evil is selfishness, that state of mind of self-will which comes from an un-evolved consciousness, an un-evolved awareness without empathy or compassion, refusing to understand others but only understanding self.

So how can you Judge my views as being New Age? When I have constantly sought for the truth, yet I bear what is truth to you and you immediately dismiss it and deem it as New Age?

You don't have ears to hear, but the doors of your heart are closed to me because you refuse to embrace the underlying message of my sayings...

You judge me by my words as "New Age", but you do not see that within my words underlie the contents of my heart, and the motives of my heart are a selfless one.

You are bound by your limited perspective. You only see one side of a six sided square. You see shadows, but yet there are objects that cast these shadows. To be aware of the shadow and yet not the object, you are clearly mistaken.

You require evidence? I'll give you solid, concrete evidense that will blow literary scholarship out of the water.

SoulTYPE · Jan 10, 2005

Were you speaking to me or Deut, about the New Age thing

oracle · Jan 10, 2005

No I am speaking to anybody who comes across this and thinks that it is new age. I may be talking in referance to someone's quotes, but I don't like to really point my finger in self-righteousness, although we all do that. I wasn't talking in referance to your qoute however.

anders · Jan 10, 2005

Lots of things to discuss here.

oracle said:
"Beelzebub, a name now synonymous with Satan, was originally a Syrian personification of the destructive power of swarming insects"-- The Secret Language of Symbols. Hence the name Beelzebub means "lord of the flies".

Some other views: Ba´al Zebub (the OT reading) is the name of a local deity in the city of Ekron, in Samaria. Beelzebul (NT) (Βεελζεβουβ ) means "the Lord, the Prince", rather tautologically. Yet another interpretation is Beelzebub = Lord of dung. I think that it all boils down to that any "sacred scripture" has to be interpreted and researched for the total meaning, not making too much fuss over separate words.

Regarding the Morning Star, Satan and Lucifer, there are some interesting views on this site.

Jayhawker Soule · Jan 10, 2005

oracle said:
You require evidence? I'll give you solid, concrete evidense that will blow literary scholarship out of the water.

I'm waiting.

Satan serpent..

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