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So have many others.Hope said:I notice my questions have been avoided, t3gah.
Well, let's stop and make sure of that, shall we? Before we can talk about whether pagan nations could add new practices on the list, we need to ask if the list was an exhaustive list of pagan practices at the time. A quick study of ancient Egyptian culture would indicate that the answer to that question is a big no. So it appears that at the time, not all the pagan practices of the time made the "no-no list," suggesting that only certain pagan practices were inpermissable to begin with. As such, any new pagan practices that came into existence would have to be carefully conidered through a lengthy study of whether that specific pagan practice is contrary to Biblical instruction.t3gah said:And if those pagan nations came up with new practices that weren't on the list of "no no's" wouldn't they still be pagan and disapproved by God? Yes they would.
So now you're not only focusing on single verses, but single words within those verses. There is a severe theological problem with that approach. There's also a severe problem with that approach relating to problems of translation and historical context.t3gah said:God detailed what he didn't like about those pagan practices and the key word here is 'pagan' nations.
I really fail to see where you've successfully proven supported such a blanket statement.t3gah said:So the relevance of whether I'm taking the first verse only is not relevant because the key point is that they are pagan. God doesn't like pagan observances period.
Now this is where your thinking gets really tricky. In one of his epistles, Paul makes it clear that he's "gave up" on the chosen people of Israel and began to teach the gospel to the Gentiles (pagan). He even went so far as to continue to write that "there is therefore no Jew (chosen) nor Gentile (pagan) in Christ Jesus." The apostles upheld this in the book of Acts when the question came up as to whether one must become a Jew and follow the law before one can become a Christian. So I'd be careful about pulling this "pagan vs. chosen" argument. After all, it tends to go against the main flow of the New Testament.t3gah said:Pagan as opposed to chosen people. They versus we. The verse is what it means, them that are they and not them that are us. Egypt, not Israel. Canaan, not Israel. Pagan, not chosen.
Note how the magi gave him gifts and didn't exchange gifts to each other.SOGFPP said:You mean except for this:
Luke 2:
13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.
20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.
Sounds like a pretty big deal to me.....
Matthew 2
11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.
They gave him gifts????? And without "Satan Claus" to deliver them??? :biglaugh:
My goodness..... I can't imagine why anyone would want to shout "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests".... and then give each other gifts to symbolize not only the gifts from the magi/wise men but to symbolize the glorious gift of Jesus Christ.
It all sounds sooooo horrible.!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You crack me up t3, thanks for being here.
Scott
Only due to the notable absence of a 24 hour WalMart in town.Note how the magi gave him gifts and didn't exchange gifts to each other.
Great heavenly host, not people. OK *gotcha*SOGFPP said:Luke 2:
13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
Nice scripture. Doesn't apply to a pagan celebration.SOGFPP said:Luke 2:
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.
What are they doing here? Are they engaged in any of the Christmas ceremonies? Where did they come from then?SOGFPP said:Luke 2:
20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.
The magi weren't wise men, they were astrologers.SOGFPP said:Matthew 2
11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.
My goodness..... I can't imagine why anyone would want to shout "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests".... and then give each other gifts to symbolize not only the gifts from the magi/wise men but to symbolize the glorious gift of Jesus Christ.
I best tell my mom Xmas is off this year as she is a christian..t3gah said:Christmas is nothing like the custom at all. Gift giving to each other is a pagan thin
Living up to your username, eh?The Voice of Reason said:For the sake of sanity, let's just let this one die.
Paul doesn't debate the facts with anyone. He goes around and tells everyone what for and supplies examples from the scriptures. Some accept the news and others do not. He, Paul, doesn't go after the ones that don't and debate the facts with them.pensive said:Please try reading Acts 17. And the rest of Acts, for that matter. I think that you will find that Paul was quite fond of debating.
Perhaps you should try reading more than one verse at a time.
Yes and the Pharisee's sort of returned with the Churches that dug up the Christmas gig and the whole celebrating it on the 25th bit. Made it a tradition and now that's what we have today. Just like the Pharisee's, a group supposedly working with God's intentions in mind, take a bunch of pagan ceremonies, bunch them together in the real spirit of what Satan did in the garden of Eden. For sensualties sake and well, it's not really a law I'm breaking, they say to themselves, these false Christians have created a pagan monster of lies perpetuating another lie that because they were a Church of Christ, it's ok in the history books for all Christians to participate in the 'holy day' festivities.pensive said:Now wait a second. By that logic...I'm sure that you have sinned. Therefore, you must no longer be Christian. You're making some rather powerful statements.
Continuation of this false Christian holiday only perpetuates the lie of those who claim they are Christians but are only a synagogue of Satan.Indeed. Let's check out those scriptures. Let's look at them in context:
[size=-1]Mark 7:9: The Pharisees are complaining that Jesus' disciples are not obeying their rules about washing their hands before eating. Jesus replies that that rule was made by men, not God. Jesus then goes on to point out that these same Pharisees break God's law where God said "honor your father and mother." The first thing to note is that the "man's law" that Jesus is criticizing is a prohibition. There is no prohibition with Christmas. There's no requirement to observe it. It's just what people do. I don't see that as in contradiction to this passage. I would also note that Jesus goes on to say that the real problem is that while following their own, man-made rules, the Pharisees also neglect God's rules. I fail to see compelling evidence in this passage that suggests that following man-made rules or traditions by an act of conscience while still following all of God's rules is a no-no.
Hardening their hearts to the scriptures and making the niceties part of Christmas a valid reason for disregarding celebrating pagan holy days, practicing pagan ceremonies and passing it off as a celebration of the Christ who was against all pagan celebrations and ceremonies just like God.[/size]pensive said:[size=-1]Ephesians 4:17: This verse, in context, talks about Gentiles hardening their hearts and giving themselves over to greed and needless sensuality. Again, I don't see why this necessarily has to do with Christmas. I suppose one could take a greedy approach to the gift-giving, but I'm unconvinced it's necessary.
Read the documents associated with the links I posted. The 24th to the 1st of January is for some pagan sun god, the winter solstice, etc. Not the God of the heavens or Jesus.[/size]pensive said:[size=-1]2 Kings 17:34: This passage has to do with people serving and honoring other gods. You have yet to demonstrate that a Christian celebrating Christmas is doing this.
Friendship with the world means taking the worlds side and not God's. They aren't devout Christians if they observe this 'holiday'. Christian isn't like race. You are either following what the Father in heaven likes and what his son, Jesus added further, thus you are a Christian or you are not, which makes you a pagan, not a Christian. It's a sin if you do it out of ignorance and you can ask for forgiveness with a prayer to the heavenly Father. If you find out it's wrong and continue to do it, you are leaving the Father, which the scripture says, and if you leave Him, he will leave you forever. You cease to be Christian and become a pagan.[/size]pensive said:[size=-1]James 4:4: Again, this passage has to do with greed and the things caused by greed. It has little bearing an Christmas as observed by most devout Christians I know.
And that's the kick of pagan celebrations that came to be after the bible was penned. If someone can't find it on the list of "no-no" celebrations or observances in the bible then it's alright to do it. But the key point of each "introduction" scripture is that it denotes the group or people the next scriptures will discuss in detail about the customs of the time for the real worshippers of the only true God. The rest is a list that most definitely would have included today's pagan customs and celebrations had they known about them back then. Pagan is pagan unless you can't speak english, then it's gibberish.pensive said:I'm sorry, but your verses don't pass the "context test." Nothing you have said specifically says "thou shalt not celebrate Christmas or any other holiday that coincides with a nonChristian holiday." It only says that if you completely ignore the greater message and context of the passages your verse comes in. Also, standing on your head and closing one eye may be necessary to get the interpretation you're trying to force these passages into.
Apparently not.linwood said:OK..now can we stop it?
I think you got you Maria's crossed. The song NetDoc is referencing is from the musical, "The Sound of Music." The "Maria" in the song is Maria Von Trapp (forgive me if I botched the spelling).Deut. 32.8 said:I thought the problem of Maria was the whole virgin birth thingie ...