Gender Roles

I had a weird dream last night where some Platonic Communists took over the country and implemented several Platonist-like policies. Children weren't viewed as a part of a family, but rather as a part of the community (they were schooled without regard to their sex, their talents, and only their talents, defined the direction the school pushed them in; bathrooms and locker rooms were shared in common; men and women did pretty much everything together as equals without distinction between genders and there was no fear or insecurity existing between the genders. So it got me to thinking. (This is a weird damn dream for an individualist, old-fashioned, capitalist like myself).

1. Should men and women fulfill different roles in marital and romantic relationships? If so, which roles and why?

2. Should men and women spend so much time separated by gender in school, in friendships, and with regard to matters of privacy (i.e. bathrooms and locker rooms).

3. Are the sexes in competition for authority in society and in relationships? If so, in what ways and why?

4. Are the sexes and the roles they play defined by society (as opposed to biology)? If so, is society doing a good job at defining those roles?

1. Should men and women fulfill different roles in marital and romantic relationships? If so, which roles and why?
There are various roles to fill and frankly I don't care which person takes care of them as long as everything gets done, the distribution of responsibility is fair and both sides are respected. My husband and I have a rather traditional division of roles, but they make us happy so it works. I get a lot of grief for it too. I'm a stay-at-home-mommy and military housewife. I cook. I clean. I raise our child. I knit, crochet and sew. I'm terribly domestic, but I am not a doormat. My husband appreciates and respects what I do and I reciprocate.

2. Should men and women spend so much time separated by gender in school, in friendships, and with regard to matters of privacy (i.e. bathrooms and locker rooms).
I've only been to coed schools, so I have no experience with gender separation in schools, but all my friends attending all girl and boy schools were very happy with it and there was ample time to mingle with the opposite gender outside of school. I would say that the schooling environment should fit the child.

I don't think that friendships should be seperated by gender. My dearest friends are guys. I'd been told that I would have to give up my guy friends after marriage, which I though was ridiculous. If my beloved didn't trust me to hang out with people when he wasn't around, then we shouldn't have gotten married in the first place and if he was concerned about another person having impure intentions towards me, he should respect me enough to let me know his concerns so we can decide how to handle things.

I do feel there should be seperation with regards to privacy. I would not feel comfortable sharing a changing area with a guy I didn't know because I would be too vulnerable. I've been raped and I am not going to put myself in a situation where it would be all too easy to happen again. I know that women cannot necessarily be trusted either--a bi girl I had just met (a friend's new girlfriend) tried, and failed, to coerce me into sex with quite a bit alcohol a month before my wedding. I had thought she was just trying to be friendly. I was very wrong. Regardless, I would have a much easier time defending myself against another woman than a man.

3. Are the sexes in competition for authority in society and in relationships? If so, in what ways and why?
I agree with Foucault. Every individual has a will to power and it manifests itself in all relationships. Some people are more dominant and some are more submissive, but it is not defined by sex or gender... though traditional gender roles idealize men as dominant and women as submissive.

4. Are the sexes and the roles they play defined by society (as opposed to biology)? If so, is society doing a good job at defining those roles?
I believe strongly in the interaction between nature and nurture, as well as the circular nature of culture: culture creates the individual and the individual creates culture. The gender roles still remain to an extent, but I don't think all the roles are being taken care of because while women have been liberated to pursue which ever roles they desire, the value of traditional women's work has been demeaned so neither side wants to pick up the slack. That's part of the reason we see so much outsourcing in families for traditional women's work from child care to cooking to cleaning....

1. Should men and women fulfill different roles in marital and romantic relationships? If so, which roles and why?

Probably unavoidable to have different roles...they should pick the roles they want.

2. Should men and women spend so much time separated by gender in school, in friendships, and with regard to matters of privacy (i.e. bathrooms and locker rooms).

I think some time separated not so mcuh for the purpose avoiding the opposite gender, but for interacting with one's own gender, can be helpful. I think to have some classes seperate in school, for example, is a good thing, but I don't see a need for completely seperate schools unless one wants it that way. Different strokes for different folks.

(Haha, but I would love to see some kind of restrictions on clothing...not necessarily uniforms, but something about decency and non-violent apparel would be good and yes I'd be a happy to decide those standards for you if you ask! )

3. Are the sexes in competition for authority in society and in relationships? If so, in what ways and why?

Everyone is in competeition for authority (well, those who want it are not determined by gender anyway), and right now women still have the harder row to hoe in this. There is still gender discrimination, institutionalized and culturized. It's getting slowly better. However, until we figure out that having kids is part of life for most of us, and one or the other parent is most likely going to sacrifice something about career for child-rearing, we are going to continue to have significan gender issues when it comes to promotions and authority/responsibilities.

4. Are the sexes and the roles they play defined by society (as opposed to biology)? If so, is society doing a good job at defining those roles?

Both biology and society. What's good?

Evearel,

Thank you for your well thought out response. I have a couple of questions.

1. Do you resent being pigeonholed into a "domesticated housewife" label? I mean, if you love what you do and your husband respects it, is it really fair for society to say that you are somehow in a submissive role?

2. Do you feel that because most women have been subject to sexual abuse, that the idea of sharing a bathroom, shower, or locker room would feel unsafe?

3. Do you feel that women should feel pride within their roles as females and men should feel pride within their roles as males, relative to their own gender roles?

1. Do you resent being pigeonholed into a "domesticated housewife" label? I mean, if you love what you do and your husband respects it, is it really fair for society to say that you are somehow in a submissive role? I don't resent it at all. In fact, I joke about being in the Cult of Domesticity quite frequently. I do resent the people who demean what I do because I don't bring home a second income or because they believe I epitomize the roles the women's lib movement was fighting and that I am hurting the cause. Society sees my role as submissive, regardless of the value my husband and I put on it, because what I do and my passions in life align all too easily with their stereotypes. I don't see my role as submissive any more than my husband's role because both sides are absolutely necessary for us to maintain the life that we desire. We work with each other on decisions, each yielding to the others expertise in the area in question. We are fairly matched with regard to varieties of skills and intellect, so this works well. It is essential that my husband makes money to fiscally support our family... and my ability to stay at home. It is essential that I provide support for my husband's military duties as well as care for our child. That way he can focus on work while he is at work and our child and myself while he's at home. He shouldn't be wasting the precious few hours at home cleaning his socks. Military life is very rough and will either pull a family together or tear it apart. My duty is to hold it together.

2. Do you feel that because most women have been subject to sexual abuse, that the idea of sharing a bathroom, shower, or locker room would feel unsafe?
Since I realized that the silence driven by shame only empowers the predators and allows them to reoffend without consequence, I've been open and vocal about my experiences which is painful and difficult but it has put me in the position to encourage others to come forward, go to the police and seek help working through the aftermath of the violation(s). I've been absolutely horrified at the sheer number of women and girls who've been through it... and I am the only one who went to the police. If they haven't been molested, sexually assaulted or raped, they very likely know at least one person who has and it would be only natural to be at least a bit apprehensive in situations where they were vulnerable.

3. Do you feel that women should feel pride within their roles as females and men should feel pride within their roles as males, relative to their own gender roles?
I feel that the individual should feel pride in the roles they feel most comfortable with and that they should not be shamed for finding happiness in roles that are matched or opposed to tradition. This nonsense of traditional men's roles being so elated that both women and men try to fill them and of traditional women's roles being so demeaned that no one wants to do them has to stop. Part of this is driven by the deep desire for conspicuous consumption beyond the couple's means which would be hindered by only having a single income to draw from, but that is another discussion.

Radio Frequency X said:

1. Should men and women fulfill different roles in marital and romantic relationships? If so, which roles and why?

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'Should' as in 'should they be obligated to'? No. Absolutely not. 'Should' as in 'should they be able to'? Yes, certainly.

2. Should men and women spend so much time separated by gender in school, in friendships, and with regard to matters of privacy (i.e. bathrooms and locker rooms).

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I think the bathroom one is moronic. If the bathrooms were all in stalls, it wouldn't matter who was in what. In my 20 years of going into bathrooms and using stalls, I've never seen anything exciting. I don't see why anyone thinks that would change if there was suddenly an extra sex in a bathroom. As for locker rooms, nobody should be forced to change in front of someone if they're not comfortable with it.

3. Are the sexes in competition for authority in society and in relationships? If so, in what ways and why?

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Not quite sure what you're asking here.

4. Are the sexes and the roles they play defined by society (as opposed to biology)? If so, is society doing a good job at defining those roles?

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Yes, they are defined by society. And society does a crappy job of defining what roles a woman should have and what roles a man should have and what roles neither should have.

1. Should men and women fulfill different roles in marital and romantic relationships? If so, which roles and why?

If necessary, yes. I don’t really care if my wife ends up being the mechanic of the family. Or if I end up doing the ironing and folding. The intention has always been what is better for the family. If me doing the clothes is better for the family as a whole, then I will do it even If I don’t want to.

2. Should men and women spend so much time separated by gender in school, in friendships, and with regard to matters of privacy (i.e. bathrooms and locker rooms).

I don’t think is true anymore. Now a days, groups are so mixed that even the bathrooms aren’t a place of privacy anymore. Granted, normally it’s all the girls going together but guys and girls being friends sharing intimate things is very normal.

3. Are the sexes in competition for authority in society and in relationships? If so, in what ways and why?

I want to believe it’s not, but I can tell you from experience that some feminist take it too far and literally want to show the guys not only that they are equal, but better in many areas. I always thought this is the sort of attitude they didn’t like and unfortunately ended up producing the very same behavior they loath.

4. Are the sexes and the roles they play defined by society (as opposed to biology)? If so, is society doing a good job at defining those roles?

I don’t think so. I do believe men and women are wired differently. To ignore that, I believe has detrimental affects on the family. No matter, how much my wife may try, she can’t teach my son how to be a man, and do male stuff. I said that to my cousins who are in their “man hating phase” and they just about punched me. They can say what they want, but it’s clear to me that children need fathers and mothers.

1. Should men and women fulfill different roles in marital and romantic relationships? If so, which roles and why?
Men and women should fill the roles they are best suited to. That won't always coincide with tradition.

2. Should men and women spend so much time separated by gender in school, in friendships, and with regard to matters of privacy (i.e. bathrooms and locker rooms).
No, I don't think so. Most of my friends are guys and that's the way it's always been for me. If I didn't spend time with guys, I'd probably be miserable.

3. Are the sexes in competition for authority in society and in relationships? If so, in what ways and why?
I agree with Victor on this one. I'd like to say there isn't any gender competition, but I have met too many hardcore feminists who make it a competition. It drives me nuts, by the way. I do feel that I can do many things just as well as men, but I don't have to prove it to anyone and it's not imperative that I do those things better.

4. Are the sexes and the roles they play defined by society (as opposed to biology)? If so, is society doing a good job at defining those roles?
I think it's mostly society and I think society is doing a really poor job with it.

Radio Frequency X said:

1. Should men and women fulfill different roles in marital and romantic relationships? If so, which roles and why?

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Couples generally fall into roles that suit their relationship and lifestyle, and because these things differ from couple to couple, I don't believe it's anyone's business but theirs to decide how their relationship will work.

2. Should men and women spend so much time separated by gender in school, in friendships, and with regard to matters of privacy (i.e. bathrooms and locker rooms).

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I don't think so, but then it's really an individual preference that comes down to one's comfort level. So again, I don't think it's society's business to come in and say 'things should be this way' concerning these matters.

3. Are the sexes in competition for authority in society and in relationships? If so, in what ways and why?

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Perhaps; Honestly, I think it's only natural for some women to seek a more authoritative position in both society and relationships, not having had the opportunity in the past. In this way, I think it may be a competition of sorts because even in the twenty-first century, the mind-set that men are to be the reigning authority figures still exists in some circles.

4. Are the sexes and the roles they play defined by society (as opposed to biology)? If so, is society doing a good job at defining those roles?

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I think that by and large, they are defined by society, as opposed to biology. I only need look at the number of exceptions to what we consider to be 'the norm' to be convinced of this.

Victor said:

No matter, how much my wife may try, she can’t teach my son how to be a man, and do male stuff.

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What does it mean, to teach your son 'how to be a man?' And, what is 'male stuff?'

Victor said:

I don’t think so. I do believe men and women are wired differently. To ignore that, I believe has detrimental affects on the family. No matter, how much my wife may try, she can’t teach my son how to be a man, and do male stuff. I said that to my cousins who are in their “man hating phase” and they just about punched me. They can say what they want, but it’s clear to me that children need fathers and mothers.

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I agree completely. Boys need men to model what it means to be a man. Girls need women to model what it means to be a woman. However, the world needs men and women that demonstrate virtues pertaining to gender roles. "Manliness" changes with the general trends of society. For example, most people wouldn't consider providing for a family a "manly" thing. Most people wouldn't consider taking care of all your children as a "manly" thing. A lot of people view family as an unnecessary hassle.

So these roles and their virtues need to be defined, in my opinion, by what builds the strongest and most loving families. I also think children need mothers and fathers, because women simply have no idea what it is like being a man and men have no idea what it is like being a woman.

I once read that women find that men who help around the home are sexy!

1. Should men and women fulfill different roles in marital and romantic relationships? If so, which roles and why?

there are many roles that need to be fulfilled in a marrage, reguardless of who does them they need to get done, i dont see why it would matter who does them.

2. Should men and women spend so much time separated by gender in school, in friendships, and with regard to matters of privacy (i.e. bathrooms and locker rooms).

i dont think that they should be seperated by gender in school, i have been in coed schools my entire life, and i dont feel i have gained something from it, nor do i think that i have been deproived of anything either.

3. Are the sexes in competition for authority in society and in relationships? If so, in what ways and why?

Well no matter how you look at it there will be competition in society with men and women, that was caused way back in the day when women first fought for there right to work. And still to this day males in the workplace earn more than women.

4. Are the sexes and the roles they play defined by society (as opposed to biology)? If so, is society doing a good job at defining those roles?

Well that is something to be debated. 30yrs ago i would have said yes to your first question. Then no to the second. Now i have to say that society has a contradictive nature to it, they tell us as women to go get your education and make a name for yourself, yet they stress the importance of a stay at home mother, i believe its the family that raised you really is the definiing factor more so than society

Hema said:

I once read that women find that men who help around the home are sexy!

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Definately! i cant see anything more sexy than that!:yes:

Hema said:

I once read that women find that men who help around the home are sexy!

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It's very true. Any time a man fulfills the needs and desires of a woman, the woman will feel more sexually attracted to him. This is why men so often use money. They use money to fulfill a woman's more superficial needs and desires, but often that's all it takes. Now, you take a husband that works around the house, the doesn't mind helping with the laundry, that doesn't mind sweeping, dusting, vacuuming etc, now you are fulfilling something much less superficial. The best I've heard it explained is that you need to begin turning your wife on in the morning with little things, small gestures, and so on, and continue doing so through the day. If a woman feels that her man has considered her all day, that he is attentive and interested, then she becomes quite willing to satisfy a man's every desire at night. And I have found this to be true.

It's so sad that some women think that men who have lots of money are sexy. But it's true RFX. My fiance has seen happen to one of his friends. His friend was interested in a girl who didn't give him the time of day and when he got a car she couldn't stay away from him. I would never ever do that to my honey. Even in my fiance's case, his neighbour was making extra efforts to talk to him when he got his car (I always thought she had a crush on him). So I told him that I loved him from the days when he used to ride his old bicycle.

Tigress said:

What does it mean, to teach your son 'how to be a man?' And, what is 'male stuff?'

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I think it was Cardero that said once "who is to dance like elmo with the kids, if not the man?". Think of the kids Tigress.

1. Should men and women fulfill different roles in marital and romantic relationships? If so, which roles and why?
NO! Absolutely not. The sexes are equal in all things. Any differences between people are personality based and not due to sex.

That is not to say that people won't take on different roles in a relationship. It is just that they should not take on these roles because that is the way it is supposed to be done. It should be down to whatever works best in the relationship. There is no role that men and women cannot fulfill equally and so sex does not matter. It should be based on the strengths and weakenesses of the individual.

2. Should men and women spend so much time separated by gender in school, in friendships, and with regard to matters of privacy (i.e. bathrooms and locker rooms).
*shrugs* I don't think it really matters either way. A general reduction in prudeness would be healthy, I think.

Whilst there is some evidence to suggest that the sexes are schooled better independently, I feel that these results are skewed (single sex schools tend to have entrance exams for example or have more money due to being private) and impact negatively on other key areas of development such as social skills.

3. Are the sexes in competition for authority in society and in relationships? If so, in what ways and why?
Some people compete with the opposite sex. I see it as a result of insecurity and therefore unhealthy. Some people react to oppression with competitiveness but I view that as counter productive since striving for equality will usually provide a more stable equilibrium.

4. Are the sexes and the roles they play defined by society (as opposed to biology)? If so, is society doing a good job at defining those roles?
Roles are entirely defined by society and society has done a terrible job in defining those roles. This is partially because these roles should not even exist and should be actively dismantled. We have outgrown the necessity of such roles through our advancement as a species.