Claims vs. Beliefs

Subduction Zone · May 6, 2022

Valjean said:
The tree of life doesn't go anywhere. It's an educational aid.
Researchers continue to accumulate information, and diagram it for clarity.
What this has to do with your evolutionary skepticism I have no idea.

I know! I know! The explanation is:

"I do not understand evolution, therefore it is wrong."

I am sorry but that probably does not help, your head is gong to have to remain as is.

ElishaElijah · May 6, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
Okay, you do not understand the tree of life.

Why not ask questions instead?

The family tree - Understanding Evolution
It’s even said the evidence isn’t flawless, who are they kidding? Look at the tree diagrams they go to 1 single branch and you would have to fill in all the branches including that single branch at the beginning. They can’t though yet you’re so sure.
I’m positive about God and what He has done for me and what He will do in the future.

Valjean · May 6, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
The family tree - Understanding Evolution
It’s even said the evidence isn’t flawless, who are they kidding? Look at the tree diagrams they go to 1 single branch and you would have to fill in all the branches including that single branch at the beginning. They can’t though yet you’re so sure.
I’m positive about God and what He has done for me and what He will do in the future.

So where is the evidence for this God?

Subduction Zone · May 6, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
The family tree - Understanding Evolution
It’s even said the evidence isn’t flawless, who are they kidding? Look at the tree diagrams they go to 1 single branch and you would have to fill in all the branches including that single branch at the beginning. They can’t though yet you’re so sure.
I’m positive about God and what He has done for me and what He will do in the future.

So what?? The evidence is not flawless. It does not need to be. I You refute yourself again. What you would need to do is to show that there are massive flaws in the evidence and not even creationists with an education in biology have been able to find anything more than the expect low percentage of errors in evidence.

And why do you think that they have to fill in every branch? That is a ridiculous demand.

In a murder trial do we have to know what the accused had for breakfast ten years ago?

You really really really need to work on your arguments.

Sheldon · May 6, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
It’s even said the evidence isn’t flawless, who are they kidding?

No evidence is flawless, unless one happens to be utterly closed minded of course.

ElishaElijah said:
I’m positive about God

Ah, well there you go.

ElishaElijah said:
They can’t though yet you’re so sure.

There is no believe or acceptance of any fact, even one as well evidenced as species evolution and the shape of the earth, that I would not relinquish is the evidence demands it. If one has even the pretence of objectivity, then this must be the bare minimum required.

ElishaElijah said:
what He has done for me

Unevidenced subjective claim.

ElishaElijah said:
what He will do in the future.

Unevidenced subjective claim.

Sheldon · May 6, 2022

Valjean said:
So where is the evidence for this God?

In the minds of those who believe it is real, and those rendered too fearful or too proud to speak out, like the tale of the Emperor's new clothes.

ElishaElijah · May 7, 2022

Sheldon said:
No evidence is flawless, unless one happens to be utterly closed minded of course.

If evolution happened slowly over time by natural selection this seems like an impossible task. Anyone should be able to see the problems with the hypothesis and theory that life developed over billions of years.
Let’s say for example the heart was developed first, or maybe the brain first that controls the heart, or was it blood that’s needed to keep them both healthy or was it the lungs first?
No, none of this could ever happen, no not ever, because in order for the human body to work and live everything needed to be formed at one time and this happened when God formed man and breathed life into him and he became a living being, that’s what I’m convinced of and sticking with it.

Sheldon · May 7, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
If evolution happened slowly over time by natural selection this seems like an impossible task.

that's called an argument from incredulity fallacy.

ElishaElijah said:
Anyone should be able to see the problems with the hypothesis and theory that life developed over billions of years.

It is an accepted scientific fact, and supported by overwhelming objective evidence in the theory of evolution, so no you're simply wrong here.

ElishaElijah said:
Let’s say for example the heart was developed first, or maybe the brain first that controls the heart, or was it blood that’s needed to keep them both healthy or was it the lungs first?

The argument your parroting is a long debunked piece of creationist propaganda, called irreducible complexity, it has been refuted for many decades by science. Again if you have bothered to read the talkorigins website I linked you'd know this. I can only encourage you to educate yourself if you have any interest in the facts, but sadly I think you would prefer to protect your beliefs from critical scrutiny.

ElishaElijah said:
No, none of this could ever happen, no not ever,

Wrong again.

ElishaElijah said:
because in order for the human body to work and live everything needed to be formed at one time

Nope, still wrong.

ElishaElijah said:
this happened when God formed man and breathed life into him and he became a living being, that’s what I’m convinced of and sticking with it.

So unevidenced and inexplicable magic is believable, but scientific facts supported by overwhelming objective evidence is not? You seem to be determined to reverse facts to protect the core religious beliefs you are so heavily invested in, but you are very wrong, and clearly don't understand devolution even at it's most basic level.

ElishaElijah · May 7, 2022

Sheldon said:
So unevidenced and inexplicable magic is believable,

Sounds like the only “magic” and sleight of hand is in the scientific community of the religion of evolution and abiogenesis as described or should I say shown by the missing evidence of the branches to the tree of life. Yes, by the way, the major organs of the body cannot function alone, this argues against evolution and isn’t a fallacy.

Sheldon · May 7, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
Sounds like the only “magic” and sleight of hand is in the scientific community of the religion of evolution and abiogenesis

Science makes no claims about abiogenesis, and magic is defined as the the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. So that is a particularly stupid claim, as is denying that it accurately describes creationism.

Yes, by the way, the major organs of the body cannot function alone, this argues against evolution and isn’t a fallacy.

Not now no, no one has remotely suggested they can, so yes this is in fact a straw man fallacy. The function of organs change over time, again if you learned a little about evolution you'd not keep repeating these kind of ignorant creationist canards.

Using the placenta to understand how complex organs evolve

ElishaElijah · May 7, 2022

Sheldon said:
Not now no, no one has remotely suggested they can, so yes this is in fact a straw man fallacy. The function of organs change over time, again if you learned a little about evolution you'd not keep repeating these kind of ignorant creationist canards.

Using the placenta to understand how complex organs evolve

All this shows is common design, but what you fail to acknowledge is that these organs cannot function on their own like a slow evolutionary process of natural selection is hypothesized. They would’ve had to exist together and at the same time to function at all and survive.

Subduction Zone · May 7, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
If evolution happened slowly over time by natural selection this seems like an impossible task. Anyone should be able to see the problems with the hypothesis and theory that life developed over billions of years.
Let’s say for example the heart was developed first, or maybe the brain first that controls the heart, or was it blood that’s needed to keep them both healthy or was it the lungs first?
No, none of this could ever happen, no not ever, because in order for the human body to work and live everything needed to be formed at one time and this happened when God formed man and breathed life into him and he became a living being, that’s what I’m convinced of and sticking with it.

That is only because you have no understanding of it and refuse to try to learn. Guess what? If one keeps oneself totally ignorant that a 747 can fly looks like magic too. " It is impossible to get something that heavy into the air." And why do you think that everything had to form at once? We know how eyes evolved for example. They did not need to be "fully formed" to work. Earlier eyes were simpler but they still worked. They did not work as well. But they still did various jobs.

Subduction Zone · May 7, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
All this shows is common design, but what you fail to acknowledge is that these organs cannot function on their own like a slow evolutionary process of natural selection is hypothesized. They would’ve had to exist together and at the same time to function at all and survive.

No. Once again there is no evidence for common design. But then you refuse to learn what is and what is not evidence too. It is the only way to keep yourself ignorant of the facts that shown you to be wrong.

Oddly enough the people that understand evidence would have no problem teaching you what evidence is, even though you could possibly use that knowledge to make your case stronger. We know from experience whose side the evidence is on. That makes a person fearless. On the other hand a person that is very afraid that he is wrong will refuse to learn because he does not want to know the truth.

ElishaElijah · May 7, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
That is only because you have no understanding of it and refuse to try to learn. Guess what? If one keeps oneself totally ignorant that a 747 can fly looks like magic too. " It is impossible to get something that heavy into the air." And why do you think that everything had to form at once? We know how eyes evolved for example. They did not need to be "fully formed" to work. Earlier eyes were simpler but they still worked. They did not work as well. But they still did various jobs.

A 747 is a great example of engineering, planning, precise machine work and intelligence. I’m glad you used this example because anyone can see the 747 came about by a designer with a plan not haphazard.
Another reality of life that mocks the theory of evolution and it’s hypothesis.

ElishaElijah · May 7, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
No. Once again there is no evidence for common design

The evidence is right there in the picture and life we see right in front of you everyday.

Subduction Zone · May 7, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
A 747 is a great example of engineering, planning, precise machine work and intelligence. I’m glad you used this example because anyone can see the 747 came about by a designer with a plan not haphazard.
Another reality of life that mocks the theory of evolution and it’s hypothesis.

LOL! Yes, we can see that it is was man made because we understand what man made object look like. Life is not man made, nor is there any evidence that it is God mad. You keep shooting yourself in the foot because you refuse to learn.

Now the question is why are you so afraid to learn? To me it seems that you know that you are wrong.

Subduction Zone · May 7, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
The evidence is right there in the picture and life we see right in front of you everyday.

Nope. You do not know what is and what is not evidence.
Are you still afraid to learn? Fear comes from a lack of faith.

TransmutingSoul · May 7, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
No. Once again there is no evidence for common design. But then you refuse to learn what is and what is not evidence too. It is the only way to keep yourself ignorant of the facts that shown you to be wrong.

That reminds me of this,

Proverbs 1:1-33......."1_7 The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth— Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, ...22“How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?
How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing
and fools hate knowledge?....."

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 1 - English Standard Version

Regards Tony

ElishaElijah · May 7, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
That reminds me of this'll.

Proverbs 1:1-33......."1_7 The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth— Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, ...22“How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?
How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing
and fools hate knowledge?....."

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 1 - English Standard Version

Regards Tony

And reminds me of this:
:
“The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the Lord.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭14:1-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

TransmutingSoul · May 7, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
And reminds me of this:
:
“The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the Lord.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭14:1-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I thought about that passage.

I do consider a wider understanding of that passage. I see those that practice virtue in this world, can do good in this world, but it is contained to this matrix. The purpose of this life is to be born from this matrix, not to be contained within it.

A metephor would be like artificial light. The full light of the sun is required to sustain life and we need to partake of that sun in a balanced healthy way. If we only choose artificial light, our health is compromised and the potential for growth is diminished.

The more attributes we use from the life giving sun, the more life can flourish.

Regards Tony

Claims vs. Beliefs

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