Claims vs. Beliefs

CG Didymus · May 3, 2022

Policy said:
Like not enough room is the only problem with the Ark myth.

Like the Ark myth is the only problem with the Bible. The Sun stopped in the sky. Jonah being able to survive inside in big fish for three days. Jesus and Peter walking on water. A talking donkey. Moses' cane turning into a snake. Parting of the seas. Virgin birth, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. But, once a person commits themselves to believing everything in the Bible literally, there's just so many things that got to accept as having really happened. And yes, I was gullible enough in my younger days to fall into the Fundy Christian way of thinking. But that was way back during the Jesus Freak movement. We all kind of reinforced each other. But mainly, for me, I depended on Christian leaders that said they had researched it and proved the Bible was accurate and dependable.

I kind of remember some of the things I was told about the flood. A canopy of water in the sky and unground springs. That mountains weren't necessarily as high as they are now. That dinosaurs were on the ark. That it had never rained prior to that. A mist came up from the ground to water plants. And, of course, God put the first rainbow up in the sky as a sign that he would never flood the whole world again. Flooding just parts of it, I guess, are okay. These days I fine with the Bible just being the myths and legends of an ancient people.

CG Didymus · May 3, 2022

Sheldon said:
It most certainly does, you may want to deny known scientific facts, but this doesn't change the fact that they are accepted as true by a global scientific consensus, based on overwhelming objective evidence.

Ironically, the Baha'is are supposedly a religion that does support and believe in science. I wouldn't be surprised if they reject things like the flood because of what scientists have found... or not found... objective evidence. But then when it comes to some of their beliefs, who needs objective evidence. Their prophet saying so is all the evidence they need. Just like with Fundy Christians... the Bible is all the evidence they need.

CG Didymus · May 3, 2022

Policy said:
Oh @Trailblazer, I have read your texts and heard Baha'i arguments. I already know that your claims are not true. And even if I were wrong about that, and B did happen to be a messenger of some god, you still lack the ability to arrive at that conclusion by any rational means.

Yeah, it's as if we didn't look into it at all. Most of us and found all sorts of issues with it. Issues in which Baha'i can't and don't answer. Of course, it's our problem for not having the faith and "spiritual" eyes to see their truth.

ElishaElijah · May 3, 2022

CG Didymus said:
Like the Ark myth is the only problem with the Bible. The Sun stopped in the sky. Jonah being able to survive inside in big fish for three days. Jesus and Peter walking on water. A talking donkey. Moses' cane turning into a snake. Parting of the seas. Virgin birth, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. But, once a person commits themselves to believing everything in the Bible literally, there's just so many things that got to accept as having really happened. And yes, I was gullible enough in my younger days to fall into the Fundy Christian way of thinking. But that was way back during the Jesus Freak movement. We all kind of reinforced each other. But mainly, for me, I depended on Christian leaders that said they had researched it and proved the Bible was accurate and dependable.

I kind of remember some of the things I was told about the flood. A canopy of water in the sky and unground springs. That mountains weren't necessarily as high as they are now. That dinosaurs were on the ark. That it had never rained prior to that. A mist came up from the ground to water plants. And, of course, God put the first rainbow up in the sky as a sign that he would never flood the whole world again. Flooding just parts of it, I guess, are okay. These days I fine with the Bible just being the myths and legends of an ancient people.

One problem is I came to know God because He delivered me from my addictions when I was hopeless. Had nothing to do with the Bible until someone shared the Gospel with me, that God
loved me, died in the Cross, was buried in a tomb, rose from the dead so my sins could be forgiven. I was asked if I believed that and wanted to receive
Jesus forgiveness, repent and live a different life according to the Word of God. I said yes and prayed for that. Well, I really was born again and changed that day, I was filled and was different, I was so full I had to just had to tell everyone what God did. At that time I started reading the Bible and never doubted the narrative of the Bible from start to finish, I understood the meaning of the Scriptures and had a strong desire for the Word of God and still do. None of what’s in the Scriptures is a problem for me as you describe your experience.

Subduction Zone · May 3, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
One problem is I came to know God because He delivered me from my addictions when I was hopeless. Had nothing to do with the Bible until someone shared the Gospel with me, that God
loved me, died in the Cross, was buried in a tomb, rose from the dead so my sins could be forgiven. I was asked if I believed that and wanted to receive
Jesus forgiveness, repent and live a different life according to the Word of God. I said yes and prayed for that. Well, I really was born again and changed that day, I was filled and was different, I was so full I had to just had to tell everyone what God did. At that time I started reading the Bible and never doubted the narrative of the Bible from start to finish, I understood the meaning of the Scriptures and had a strong desire for the Word of God and still do. None of what’s in the Scriptures is a problem for me as you describe your experience.

Okay, if you understand the Bible how do you explain events that we know did not happen, such as the Flood myth?

What you may have is a hysterical belief due to your fear of relapse. A person facing that pressure could easily convince themselves that they "understood" the Bible.

ElishaElijah · May 3, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
What you may have is a hysterical belief due to your fear of relapse. A person facing that pressure could easily convince themselves that they "understood" the Bible.

I did have a fear of relapse early on when I would share my testimony and people would say things like you’re gonna drink and drug again. But God gave me this verse.
“Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:24-25‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And that was 30+ years ago, He has been faithful to keep His promise

ElishaElijah · May 4, 2022

Sheldon said:
It's in the post you responded to, here:

"Macroevolutionary studies tend to draw heavily from the fossil record. Fossils document the emergence of new life forms, how their geographic distribution changed over time, and ultimately when they went extinct."

<LINK>

Thanks and sorry I missed this post or should I say your reference, I had a question, is your sole evidence of macro evolution the fossil record? Are there transitional fossils that show this change ? What were the changes, from what to what was shown in the fossil record or were fossils found and extrapolations made from the fossils?

Sheldon · May 4, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
Why? If I answer your questions and provide the evidence for Noah’s Ark, if God came down to earth right now like He did 2000 years ago would you believe and place your trust in Him? If the answer is probably not then why should we talk?

You have provided none, and as I said it is a geological fact that no global flood occurred, and it is a genetic fact that the genetic diversity of species, including humans, that they could not have ever had a breeding population as low the Noah's myth suggests.

So two facts that falsify the Noah flood myth, and all you have to offer is unevidenced speculation and what ifs.

Sheldon · May 4, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
God uses natural and supernatural means sometimes like He used the wind to part the Red Sea. Same with the Flood and Noah’s Ark.

Another bare unevidenced assertion, why do you think these are at all compelling? You might as well be claiming Superman is real.

Sheldon · May 4, 2022

Trailblazer said:
Trailblazer said: ↑
I am tired of being accused of making claims.
#1 Trailblazer, Apr 25, 2022

Trailblazer said: ↑
I don't care if people call what I say a claim. I have already said that several times.
#879 Trailblazer, Today at 9:56 AM

If you are going to do a job I suggest you do it right.
You posted those quotes in the wrong chronological order.
A lot can happen in 8 days.

Your claims contradict each other, the order they were posted is irrelevant to that point, it seems you'd rather create a red herring than address the fact you have yet again posted contradictory ideas.

mikkel_the_dane · May 4, 2022

Sheldon said:
Your claims contradict each other, the order they were posted is irrelevant to that point, it seems you'd rather create a red herring than address the fact you have yet again posted contradictory ideas.

Yeah, but that is no different than debating with you. You conflate making sense for different cognitive domains. So what some religious people do, is natural and not unique to them, because some non-religious people also do it.

Sheldon · May 4, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
Yeah, if you say there wasn’t enough room on the Ark then you would need to know how many were on it.

I never claimed that, as it doesn't matter, there is no objective evidence for the myth, and at least two known scientific facts refute it, as I have said.

ElishaElijah said:
I don’t need to know because I already believe

that obvious bias was the point, it illustrates a flawed rationale, a closed mind.

ElishaElijah said:
God is telling me what happened and although I don’t have the complete manifest, I don’t need that but you do.

I don't believe you, anymore than I would anyone who reels off unevidenced assertions like this, and I don't need to disprove a flood myth no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for, that is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. I have also pointed out several times that the flood myth as well as being entirely unevidenced, is contradicted by two known scientific facts. Firstly there the geological record desaturates unequivocally that no global flood has occurred, secondly the genetic diversity of species alive today, could not have been derived from a breeding population as low as the myth suggests, or anywhere near it.

So since I prefer to believe what is true, I am more inclined to accept scientific facts, since these are supported by a sufficient weight of objective evidence. I am disinclined to believe archaic superstitious myths, unsupported by any objective evidence, and that are refuted by known scientific facts. You may believe the moon is made of soft cheese, if this makes you happy, but I am not obliged to share such beliefs.

Sheldon · May 4, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
Because I’m telling you the truth and your eternal destiny hangs in the balance.

Whilst I might be persuaded to believe that you think what you're telling me is true, this would not of course make what you're telling me true, and your last claim is simply another unevidenced assertion, I believe I have been pretty clear and consistent in explaining I lend no credence to unevidenced assertion.

Sheldon · May 4, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
I did have a fear of relapse early on when I would share my testimony and people would say things like you’re gonna drink and drug again. But God gave me this verse.
“Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:24-25‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And that was 30+ years ago, He has been faithful to keep His promise

You are doing yourself a disservice, by believing you have not done this yourself. However I did caution you from the very start, that if you believe your sobriety needs the crutch of religious belief, it might be unwise to subject that belief to critical scrutiny. However I see now that you're not, as you are completely closed minded to any facts or evidence that remotely contradict any aspect of those beliefs. Even going so far as to deny known scientific facts.

ElishaElijah · May 4, 2022

Sheldon said:
I never claimed that, as it doesn't matter, there is no objective evidence for the myth, and at least two known scientific facts refute it, as I have said.

that obvious bias was the point, it illustrates a flawed rationale, a closed mind.

I don't believe you, anymore than I would anyone who reels off unevidenced assertions like this, and I don't need to disprove a flood myth no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for, that is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. I have also pointed out several times that the flood myth as well as being entirely unevidenced, is contradicted by two known scientific facts. Firstly there the geological record desaturates unequivocally that no global flood has occurred, secondly the genetic diversity of species alive today, could not have been derived from a breeding population as low as the myth suggests, or anywhere near it.

So since I prefer to believe what is true, I am more inclined to accept scientific facts, since these are supported by a sufficient weight of objective evidence. I am disinclined to believe archaic superstitious myths, unsupported by any objective evidence, and that are refuted by known scientific facts. You may believe the moon is made of soft cheese, if this makes you happy, but I am not obliged to share such beliefs.

What I see is the same evidence but different conclusions from that evidence. Some scientist use purely natural evolutionary process and conclusions while rejecting anything supernatural, while others start with a Creator and intelligent design and come at the data with that perspective, then they debate it.
It’s all interesting to me but I didn’t start at either place. I didn’t need any science or evidence to call out and find God, so all the science is a secondary thing but just by observation of the world and how everything works from a human standpoint and experience this all points to God and just as the Bible describes in Romans 1.

“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:20, 23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Romans 1:20-23 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, becaus | New King James Version (NKJV) | Download The Bible App Now

ElishaElijah · May 4, 2022

Sheldon said:
However I did caution you from the very start, that if you believe your sobriety needs the crutch of religious belief, it might be unwise to subject that belief to critical scrutiny.

Scrutinize away but there is a difference between a crutch and being empowered by the supernatural Spirit of God is what I’m talking about but I would say you are limping pretty bad. I traded my old nature for a new one. The old landed me in rehab the new one eternal life and success on Earth.

Sheldon · May 4, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
Thanks and sorry I missed this post or should I say your reference, I had a question, is your sole evidence of macro evolution the fossil record?

No, and again I have linked the talkorigins website several times, and explained it has a massive database of some of the objective evidence that supports species evolution.

ElishaElijah said:
Are there transitional fossils that show this change ?

All fossils are transitional, this is quite a common error creationists make, and again the talkorigins website as I explained, debunks a large number of propaganda lies and misconceptions like this one, peddled by creationists. I understand that one of the most complete fossil records we have is for the modern horse, it spans 55 millions years of evolution. However given how fossils are formed, the record is never going to be 100% complete, but what we have already uncovered is quite remarkable, and sufficient objective evidence to support macroevolution. Incidentally macro and micro evolution is effectively the same process, just on a different time scale.

ElishaElijah said:
What were the changes, from what to what was shown in the fossil record or were fossils found and extrapolations made from the fossils?

You are talking about the evolution of every living thing on the planet we know see, over billions of years, so the subject is unbelievably vast. I have linked the talkorigins website, and the database of objective evidence on there is vast enough to cover any of your questions I'm sure. It's up to you what you do with this evidence.

Sheldon · May 4, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
What I see is the same evidence but different conclusions from that evidence.

You have provided no objective evidence, and there is only one objective and rational conclusion from the fact that the geological record demonstrates unequivocally that no global flood ahs occurred.

Some scientist use purely natural evolutionary process and conclusions while rejecting anything supernatural, while others start with a Creator and intelligent design and come at the data with that perspective, then they debate it.

I don't care what an individual scientist believes, only what the methodologies of science validates.

I didn’t need any science or evidence to call out and find God,

Another unevidenced anecdote, I'm not sure how many times I must explain I lend no credence to such claims or assertions.

so all the science is a secondary thing

Well you are entitled to deny objective scientific facts of course, but I cannot concur. I should also be obliged to point out the obvious bias in such a claim, since you don't use religious beliefs to post here, but technology derived from science, if that science is secondary to your belief in the power of prayer, why aren't you just praying your message to us, but instead relying on scientifically derived knowledge? One assumes you would go to a doctor is you were ill, or a mechanic to fix your car, why not abandon these "secondary" methods of acquiring knowledge, and only pray to become better or your car to be fixed?

but just by observation of the world and how everything works from a human standpoint and experience this all points to God

Another unevidenced assertion, can you demonstrate anything approaching objective evidence or even rational argument to support this claim?

and just as the Bible describes

We have just spent a deal of time demonstrating that the bible contains errant nonsense, that known scientific facts refute, so how does quoting the bible help your argument?

Sheldon · May 4, 2022

ElishaElijah said:
Scrutinize away but there is a difference between a crutch and being empowered by the supernatural Spirit of God is what I’m talking about but I would say you are limping pretty bad.

I see no objective difference, only an unevidenced and anecdotal claim.

ElishaElijah said:
I traded my old nature for a new one.

As I said, many people do this, change their lives profoundly, and many do it without religion or superstition, and of course as i have already pointed out, a belief can have a profound effect on the holder, even if the belief were a delusion. I have never tried to assert that delusions can't be extremely powerful.

ElishaElijah said:
The old landed me in rehab the new one eternal life and success on Earth.

I'm glad you turned your life around, but this as I have explained, does not lend any credence to your beliefs, and I don't believe you or anyone else have gained eternal life.

mikkel_the_dane · May 4, 2022

Sheldon said:
You have provided no objective evidence, and there is only one objective and rational conclusion from the fact that the geological record demonstrates unequivocally that no global flood has occurred.
...

Yes, if you accept at minimum methodological naturalism. But I have seen no evidence that it is supernatural to be non-objective and non-rational. To me that is also a fact of how the everyday world works.

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