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To Die For The Sin of Mankind – what does that really mean ?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The word "soul" is very hard to discuss since it's basically abstract. Do animals have souls? How could I possibly know?

OTOH, the thing I drift towards is there quite possibly being a "piece" of God within us, such as the Society of Friend's belief in the "Inner Light". Is that the "soul"? I don't know.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Mathew 5.17

If God is jealous, than his jealousy will show in all that he does. A leopard cannot change its spots.
God has ZERO Jealousy. Man can not control the emotions of God. God does NOT need men to worship Him. People need God for eternal life.
Men that want to rule as a Lord God have jealousy and wrath and demand war for wealth and power claiming God desires it when they are lying. WOE to those scribes..
Study the prophets because they do explain what happens in nuclear WW3 but it is difficult to understand because of the symbolism and personifications.
A rod of iron is a rifle representing an army. Pillows sewn to arms are parachutes. Pearls are radar installations. A unicorn is an army tank and so is behemoth. Trees are nations so when a forest is marching that represents a world war. Locusts are attack helicopters. A Seraphim is a fighter jet like a F-35 that flies with twain =2 jets using twain= DAS placed in 2 units each location to locate the enemy with accuracy. DAS is also described in scripture as "eyes all around" since it gives total 360 degree sight even through the bottom of the jet. When the jet is loaded with missiles it is called a candlestick.
Understanding the symbolism is interesting and fits like a glove to what has advanced in our generation, the final generation on Earth because we are forced into a thermonuclear world war because of a dead man named Abraham and the red dragon China. Like the1st BEAST=WW2 that ended by the use of an atomic bomb, the upcoming war will be fought according to scripture in 2 theaters, the SEA BEAST is nuclear war in the South China Sea. The BEAST is war over Abrahamic religions in the Mid-East that spreads over the world because of alliances. Heads are nations that have claims to land and resources in contention with other nations and Horns are nations in alliance to one or more of the Heads to fight for them in war. Israel is a Head, China is a Head, Japan is a Head, Russia is a Head, the USA is a Horn.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
What the Christians believe today came from what the early Church preached 2 thousand years ago, it never came from any of the prophets, including Jesus.
Jesus himself never heard of ‘original sin’ or its concept, rather, it was coined long after Jesus had departed to support the preaching of Jesus dying for the sin of mankind.

You are quoting the second part of the 2nd Commandment in the 10th Commandment which has nothing to do with original sin/sin of Adam.

The 2nd Commandment read, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments”.
You do understand that the image you spend your life looking at that shows everything on Earth and what is in space is your computer, a man made form? Do you want to never use a computer? Are you willing to never look at a computer or make or look at a photograph? People do not obey this command because they define it as they want it defined and do not realize what it really means. I use this technology but to help people because we are near the End of Days and few will be saved from it.

In context, God is giving a warning to mankind that they should not make any image in the form of anything (which Christians clearly disobey) and they shall not bow down or worship those forms that are made with his own hands. If man practices this (which is a sin as God forbids it), and traditionally passed it on to their children who then will pass it on to their children and so on, then, their children and children of their children and so on are also committing the same sin of their parents and God will punish all those who continually commit this sin. It's NOT that the parent's sin will also automatically sin their children, but, the children sin because they continue the traditional practice of their parent, which is, making images and worshipping those images instead of worshiping the One and Only True God.

I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God’ simply means that there’s only ONE True God who is worthy of worship and you shall not ‘share’ that worship with anyone or anything else other than the One and True Only God.
It would be ridiculous to think that God can be jealous of anything or anyone when everything is created by Him.
Are you aware that according to Jewish history, Abraham was the son of an idol maker helping his father make idols for all kinds of religions? He knew that the stone and wood he carved had no power. What had power was the BELIEF those images had power. So Abraham decided it is easy to become powerful if one tells people God has blessed them as chosen. So Abraham destroyed his fathers idol workshop and declared himself the chosen of God and people that will believe and follow Abraham are chosen of the God that Abraham created that allowed Abraham to BE Lord God.
Abraham invented Adam and that talking snake so the people that liked to worship fantasy would believe him.
 
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JerryMyers

Active Member
Jerry, I like how you think but you still miss an important topic. Jesus is the son of God. Males carry male gender females do not and Jesus was created by God with no male DNA from any man. The male DNA in Jesus was designed fresh never in the body of any man on Earth. Joseph did not beget Jesus so Jesus is not a SON of MAN even though the Jews insist he is because they believe as shown in Matthew 1 that Jesus is Christ only by bloodline. But God would not let it be written that Joseph beget Jesus making Jesus the "seed of David" because that did not happen. Jews reject virgin birth and believe as Paul does that Jesus was conceived in fornication between Joseph and Mary so is Christ only by the Abrahamic covenant bloodline.
Jesus is called the Son of man but is not and praised Peter for understanding that fact. There is only 1 Christ and when Jesus was killed the Jews thought they were killing a son of David. Judas when betraying Jesus thought he was betraying a son of David, Son of man, as Judas had returned to the Jewish temple beliefs to rejoin that religion although they refused to accept him back in their temple still believing judas should be killed for leaving their religion joining Jesus. So when Jesus was betrayed by Judas, he was in fact betraying the only Christ that God offered Judas but the Christ Judas wanted to accept is a Jewish "son of man" Christ that Judas was willing to betray. Judas had stopped believing Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus knew that. Jesus made it clear to Judas that he understood Judas no longer wanted to follow Jesus by calling himself 'the Son of man" a betrayal of the Son of God that Judas had professed to love with a kiss.
The Son of Man is a son of Abraham/David that is a MILITARY commander that will lead an army of killers in the final war to establish dominance of Earth. ALL military commanders vow to die for their country if necessary, sacrifice their life, for their ruler to prevail.
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
Jesus is making a comparison of religious rule and secular rule. The commander in chief of an army does not enter war to be told what to do by the enemy, "be ministered to", that Son of man fights to establish his right to tell another country how to run their government. The "many" he is willing to die for is his own country and any allies his country may have.
Jesus is never going to break the command of God to not kill. The Son of God is not the Son of man. Jesus knows that final Abrahamic war will happen if Jesus is killed ( but the Jews are relentless and will keep killing the disciples of Jesus until they kill Jesus, so Jesus agrees to die on a cross so his religion will not die and a few people that are disciples will be saved in that final conflict) and the Son of man military commander supporting belief in Abraham that tells people he is going to win, will die in it.
Son of God’ is a reference to those who are holy, righteous, and guided by the Spirit of God, and Jesus is such a man.

Anyone who is holy, righteous, and guided by the Spirit of God are called the son of God. Even Paul acknowledged that – “For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” – Romans 8:14. Angels too are called “the sons of God” (Job 38:7). Adam, the first human being, being a direct creation of God, is called “the son of God” (Luke 3:38). In John 1:12-13, we read about believing Jews who became “the children of God…children born out of God”.

So, being called ‘S/son of God’ got nothing to do with male or female DNA as Adam was created directly without any involvement of both male and female. Jesus was created with the involvement of a female as he was created in the womb of Mary who then gave birth to him through the normal human reproduction process.

Son of man’ in Aramaic is ‘bar enash and it means human being. Jesus, more often than not, referred to himself as the ‘son of man’ because he knew many people regarded him as God or God the Son, and he wanted them to know that he was just a human being like Adam or any other man, NOT God.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Are you aware that according to Jewish history, Abraham was the son of an idol maker helping his father make idols for all kinds of religions? He knew that the stone and wood he carved had no power. What had power was the BELIEF those images had power. So Abraham decided it is easy to become powerful if one tells people God has blessed them as chosen. So Abraham destroyed his fathers idol workshop and declared himself the chosen of God and people that will believe and follow Abraham are chosen of the God that Abraham created that allowed Abraham to BE Lord God.
Abraham invented Adam and that talking snake so the people that liked to worship fantasy would believe him.
Yes, I am aware that Abraham’s father was an idol-maker. However, I am not sure where you get the idea that Abraham declared himself as ‘the chosen God’ or that he invented ‘Adam and the talking snake’. Care to share your source(s) of information?
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Son of God’ is a reference to those who are holy, righteous, and guided by the Spirit of God, and Jesus is such a man.

Anyone who is holy, righteous, and guided by the Spirit of God are called the son of God. Even Paul acknowledged that – “For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” – Romans 8:14. Angels too are called “the sons of God” (Job 38:7). Adam, the first human being, being a direct creation of God, is called “the son of God” (Luke 3:38). In John 1:12-13, we read about believing Jews who became “the children of God…children born out of God”.

So, being called ‘S/son of God’ got nothing to do with male or female DNA as Adam was created directly without any involvement of both male and female. Jesus was created with the involvement of a female as he was created in the womb of Mary who then gave birth to him through the normal human reproduction process.

Son of man’ in Aramaic is ‘bar enash and it means human being. Jesus, more often than not, referred to himself as the ‘son of man’ because he knew many people regarded him as God or God the Son, and he wanted them to know that he was just a human being like Adam or any other man, NOT God.
Romans is written by a lying Pharisee that betrays Jesus like Judas did by wanting the death of Jesus. There are only 12 Apostles allowed and Paul is not one of them because no man that desires the death of Jesus is an Apostle.
You are right about all men being sons of God but only one man was created by God by a virgin birth with designed male DNA that had been in no prior human. God speaks directly to Jesus. Jesus is told about the future and is told by God to teach it. God gave the power of healing to Jesus and temple Pharisees were made aware they had the ability to judge and kill people but had no power from God to heal lepers, make blind people see and the lame walk. They were not chosen by God, to lead the people teaching religion, Jesus was the chosen by God.
Understand the context in which he called himself the son of man, He did it with Judas to let Judas know he already knew Judas was going to betray him because Judas no longer believed Jesus was the son of God and thought Jesus was a son of man. As soon as Jesus said son of man Judas knew that Jesus knew Judas was betraying the Son of God. When the Son of Man comes to kill people Jesus explains what to do to keep from being killed. A man with the goal to kill people does not warn his victims how to keep from being killed. Jesus refused to be a killer and is not the Son of man that is a killer.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Yes, I am aware that Abraham’s father was an idol-maker. However, I am not sure where you get the idea that Abraham declared himself as ‘the chosen God’ or that he invented ‘Adam and the talking snake’. Care to share your source(s) of information?
Be aware that Jews circumcise themselves to show support for and belief in the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant is a unilateral covenant that God made with Abraham according to what Abraham said. Abraham had zero witnesses to God giving Abraham a covenant. No one ever verified it was truth, All people have is the word of a proven by scripture liar. We know Abraham was a married man but lied denying his vow of marriage by telling people he and his wife were single not married to each other.
Abraham will lie if he thinks it will give him an advantage over people.
Jesus said without a witness to verify what happened actually did happen then what Abraham said is what Abraham wants people to believe and is unprovable as truth. Jesus was told by God that God never spoke with Abraham and Jesus explains that in John chapter 8. Abraham lied. God never spoke with Abraham and God never gave him a covenant. Abraham has no promise of land from God. Another lie is Abraham is promised to have descendants as numerous as the sand on the seashore.
Jesus said there is no salvation in Jacobs well, his religion and linage. So God gave no future Christ promise to Abraham thru Issacc or Jacob. No savior comes out of Abraham.
So what is used to establish the "royal" linage of Abraham but the dust man, rib woman ,talking snake fiction. Just like a Greek man made Zeus seem real by creating a lot of family members with lots of stories to support the existence of Zeus, Abraham the liar, made his linage of fake men that lived hundreds of years before dying and made his first father the first man Lord God created. The serpent is the most subtle Lord God created because Lord God Abraham is the serpent that made up that talking serpent fiction so Abraham could rule as the voice of Lord God. That is why Jesus called the sons of Abraham, "Vipers".
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
dam was
Son of God’ is a reference to those who are holy, righteous, and guided by the Spirit of God, and Jesus is such a man.

Anyone who is holy, righteous, and guided by the Spirit of God are called the son of God. Even Paul acknowledged that – “For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” – Romans 8:14. Angels too are called “the sons of God” (Job 38:7). Adam, the first human being, being a direct creation of God, is called “the son of God” (Luke 3:38). In John 1:12-13, we read about believing Jews who became “the children of God…children born out of God”.

So, being called ‘S/son of God’ got nothing to do with male or female DNA as Adam was created directly without any involvement of both male and female. Jesus was created with the involvement of a female as he was created in the womb of Mary who then gave birth to him through the normal human reproduction process.

Son of man’ in Aramaic is ‘bar enash and it means human being. Jesus, more often than not, referred to himself as the ‘son of man’ because he knew many people regarded him as God or God the Son, and he wanted them to know that he was just a human being like Adam or any other man, NOT God.
Agreed that Jesus taught he is not God!
Adam was created directly out of the imagination of Abraham. The first humans were not given names. There were generations of people already created and having children before the lies of Abraham were cast out into society and his followers began killing people for not believing in that talking snake.
The true creation outline by God, the Father of Jesus, ends in Genesis 2:4. Finished no more talking about it. Then the heathen animal and child sacrificing , war mongering religion that Abraham established so he could be a jealous, wrathful ruler is shown.
In chapter 1 of creation in Genesis by GOD, humans were created together AFTER plants and animals were created.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
The "US" are the plants and animals already created that humans need to eat to stay alive to build new cells throughout life. We are in the likeness of animals because we have flesh and blood, 4 limbs, one head, one heart, 2 eyes, etc. That is the formation of our body but we are made in the likeness of God because we are designed to have advanced intelligence with the ability to create a computer, fly in aircraft, understand math, physics, literature, etc. and we have the spiritual emotions of love and compassion for not only our specie but other species as well. Male and female are created in the same manner with programed DNA that evolves.
In Abraham's talking snake fiction, Adam is created BEFORE plants and animals are created. The truth is a woman was not created out of the rib of a man. A talking snake is as real as a flying reindeer.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Are you aware that according to Jewish history, Abraham was the son of an idol maker helping his father make idols for all kinds of religions? He knew that the stone and wood he carved had no power. What had power was the BELIEF those images had power. So Abraham decided it is easy to become powerful if one tells people God has blessed them as chosen. So Abraham destroyed his fathers idol workshop and declared himself the chosen of God and people that will believe and follow Abraham are chosen of the God that Abraham created that allowed Abraham to BE Lord God.
Abraham invented Adam and that talking snake so the people that liked to worship fantasy would believe him.

Abraham was not the son of an idol maker.
God DID bless Abraham's children and gave them the promised land.
God DID bless all the people of the world through Abraham and his children.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yes, I am aware that Abraham’s father was an idol-maker. However, I am not sure where you get the idea that Abraham declared himself as ‘the chosen God’ or that he invented ‘Adam and the talking snake’. Care to share your source(s) of information?

What is the source of information that Abraham's father was an idol maker?

That's OK I just read about an Islamic legend that says that.
The law about not making cloths from more than one type of fibre in the Mosaic law was imo about syncretism and not to believe in other religions while believing in YHWH and mixing the other beliefs with the truth.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Psalm 49:7 “No man can by any means redeem his brother or give to God a ransom for him.”

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin”.

The Old Testament clearly preached no man can die for another man’s sins.

Yet, Christians believe Jesus literally died for the sin of mankind - a belief which is clearly at odds with the preaching of the OT. But then, we know God is not a ‘flip-flop’ God of confusion. He would not have said “each will die for their own sin” and then, decided to send His chosen servant, or the son of God, if you like, Jesus, the son of man, to die for the sin of all mankind.

Did the New Testament contradict the Old Testament on this matter ? If the NT did not contradict the OT in this matter, then, the seemingly contradictions must be the result of the Christians’ misinterpretation of the phrase “die for” in the NT verses. Soldiers, regardless of whether they survived or were killed in battles, can be said to ‘die for their country’ because their life as a soldier was fully committed and dedicated to protecting and defending the sovereignty of their country at all costs. In the same way, Jesus too can be said to ‘die for the sins of man as his life on earth was truly dedicated and committed to save man from their sinning ways and show them the way to eternal life.

‘Died for’ or ‘to die for’ is an idiom, which is similar to someone saying, ‘her ice cream cake is something to die for’ which would mean the cake is so delicious and highly sought after, and not that you have to literally ‘die for’ the ice cream cake, or a ‘workaholic’ man who doesn’t seem to have a break, even on weekends and public holidays, could be said as a man who ‘die for his company’.

To be saved does not mean one must believe Jesus literally must die for your sin and rose from the dead, but to be saved would mean man need to believe in the One and Only God AND to listen and believe in the preaching of His prophets/messengers in their respective lifetimes, in this case, Jesus, who was sent by God so that man can understand righteousness thru his preaching, so said Jesus himself – “whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life” – John 5:24.

So, if we understand Jesus’ words, then, we should also understand that all the passages in the NT which implied Jesus ‘died for the sin’ of man was actually to mean Jesus had lived his whole life on earth to bring righteousness to mankind and had shown man THE WAY out of eternal death and into THE (eternal) LIFE. So, Jesus was what he said he was in his lifetime – “I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through me” – John 14:6. In Moses’ lifetime, Moses was the WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE, and no one comes to (know) the Father (that is, the Supreme Being, God) except through Moses – if not through Moses, from who else can the people in Moses’ time come to know God? In the same way, most, if not all, prophets endured sufferings in their lifetimes, and, some were even killed for bringing the message of God and preaching righteousness to the people and they too could be said to have died ‘for the sin of mankind’, as they too, are committed to show mankind the way to the eternal life. In other words, these prophets are the way, the truth, and the life in their respective lifetimes just as Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life in his lifetime on earth.

Fact is, like all prophets and messengers of God, Jesus has lived for man’s sin just as he was said to have ‘died’ for man’s sin – both ‘lived for’ and ‘died for’ here carry the same meaning. If both statements carry the same meaning, then, the New Testament did not really contradict the Old Testament, it’s only the Christians who had taken the idiom ‘to die for’ LITERALLY as to them, Jesus had literally died on the cross for their sins when it was only made to appear so unto them.

The only reason why Jesus himself NEVER preached to his disciples his ‘death’ will redeem the sins of man, was because Jesus, as a prophet of God, knew only God have the power to forgive sin, and thus, he taught his disciples to pray to God for the forgiveness of sin (Matthew 6:12) and NOT that his ‘death’ will save all mankind from their sins – nothing and no one can forgive sin, ONLY the One True God can.
That is one of the biggest flaws in Christianity. The idea that God needs revenge for some made up wrong. Worse yet it paints God as being psychotic. He makes up an unrealistic standard, with an unjust punishment. The only way that he can forgive is if something pays the price. Justice has nothing to do with it since substitutionary atonement is never just.

This concept also often leads to very bad behavior by some Christians. The least "Christian" of Christians are often those that have the belief of "once saved always saved". They have the mistaken belief that they can no longer sin as part of that doctrine. Yet we see them harming their fellow man more than any other Christians.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member

Son of man’ in Aramaic is ‘bar enash and it means human being. Jesus, more often than not, referred to himself as the ‘son of man’ because he knew many people regarded him as God or God the Son, and he wanted them to know that he was just a human being like Adam or any other man, NOT God.

Jesus wanted men to know that He is the one in Daniel 7:13,14 who is given an everlasting Kingdom
Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That’s the preaching of other people, NOT Jesus. You will be hard-pressed to prove Jesus preached the same…and God does not set ransom on anyone.

When Jesus said he came “to give his life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28), he was speaking figuratively to mean he had come to commit his whole life to save sinners from their sinning ways - he did that not by dying, he did that through his preaching. Also note that Jesus said ‘as a ransom for many’, NOT ‘for all’, which mean the word ‘ransom’ is to be understood figuratively, NOT literally, as Jesus can only save those who listen to him. Christians believe Jesus died for all mankind, NOT for many.

God did not put a ransom on anyone, but Jesus did come to satisfy the judgement of God that those who sin will die. Through the OT law we see the death of animals as a means to cover sins and that points to Jesus who did that fully for all sins and people that accept Him.
So I have evidence and even proof from the OT, the gospels and the rest of the NT. You have no evidence from the Bible at all.
Jesus ransomed "many" because not all accept Jesus.

It would be illogical to take the word ‘ransom’ in Matthew 20:28 literally, especially when earlier, in Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that only those who do the Will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. He NEVER said only those who believe he came to die for the sin of all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven, now did he ?? Again your belief came from the preaching of other men, NOT from Jesus.

Those who accept Jesus do repent and do the will of their Lord, Jesus. Paul preached repentance and doing the will of God and James said that without works faith is dead. There is no contradiction between what Jesus taught and the rest of the NT.
It is what you teach that comes from other men, men who deny the Bible and the gospel message that can be seen throughout the Bible.
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You believe that because you took the word ‘ransom’ in Matthew 20:28 literally.

Well Jesus did actually give His life as a ransom for many.


Again, you will be hard-pressed to prove that Jesus ever said or even implied he was sent to die for the sin of mankind or the only way to eternal life is to believe he died for your sin. If you have come across those verses, please quote them.

I don't have to show where Jesus said exactly what you want Him to have said. He said enough about His death and resurrection and His followers taught what He had taught them.

Can you quote which Bible verse are you referring to when Jesus said/implied he came to die? I can give you the Bible passage where Jesus said/implied that he did not die after the so-called ‘crucifixion and resurrection.

You cannot show where Jesus said/implied that he did not die. All you can do is show how you twist some scriptures and deny others because you do not believe what they tell us.
Luke 24:13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, 14 and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17 And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” 19 And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.” 25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Even today, Christian scholars are still debating whether Isaiah 53 is referring to Jesus or to the nation of Israel. So, your ‘point’ here is doubtful.

Christian scholars do not doubt Isa 53 is about Jesus if they believe the New Testament. Whether it also has a meaning with the nation of Israel being the servant is what would be debated.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Sin is not imputed where there is no law. Once a law is created, it defines a new sin, bringing a new sin into the world. Sin does not exist without law first defining something as a sin. When Jesus died for our sins, he essentially did away with law, since without law, there is no more sin.

Original sin is based on Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Once they bought into the premise that social reality can be correlated to a polarization of good and evil and not an integration of nature, then law will appear to help define and control evil, thereby giving power to sin. As Paul said, I would not have known about coveting if the law did not tell me not to covet; prohibitions create temptations. New law often bring things to awareness, that many would not think of, for themselves.

As a modern example, in the USA during the COVID pandemic, it was a social sin not a wear a mask in some states; Left leaning states. But it was not a social sin, to not wear a mask, in other states; Right leaning states. The difference, in terms of sin, had to do with which states made a law that defined it a sin. The law states reinforced this newly defined sin with a carrot and stick; self righteousness versus punishment. It had to be evil or else they would not fine you, right?

If I stepped over the border, to an adjacent state, that had no mask law, now the exact same behavior is not a sin, by definition in that state. In the end, both ways led to about the same outcome in terms of the virus. This law was not objective, meaning even the sin was no objective, but subjective and defined by man.

Law is not always objective, but is very often subjective; based on political views. This is the main pitfall of law. Dictators will make laws to help them maintain power and control. They do not make laws to help define an objective path for social reality. They often define anything that makes them paranoid as a sin. If they are neurotic or project their own propensities for evil onto others, they may see evil, that is not really there and make strange behavior a sin. Censorship will make language a sin, with the wage of some words, death from Twitter. Law can get very self serving and arbitrary. But even self serving and subjective law can define new sins. All you need is the self righteous mob and punishment.

Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. This was a backdoor way for doing away with law. If you lived in a mask mandate state, and your were caught not wearing a mask, but you were forgiven by the patrol officer, this would lead to the same end result, as no law. Sin is only imputed when there is a law, so if the sin is neutralized because of forgiveness, you get the same end result as in a state that has no law. Back at the time of Jesus, each culture and sub-clique had their own pet laws. Some could eat pork and others could not due to sin being defined, but only in some places. This was not objective law.

Humans have been under law of good and evil for thousands of years; 6000 years. There has been genetic changes based on the natural selection process in the context of knowledge of good and evil, law and punishment. This polarization propensity and behavior is more or less engrained in our DNA. \This is how we all become sinners at birth. We are born with sin or the natural propensity to define things as good and evil or right and wrong, and then make a law, thereby defining sin for us and others.

If you had many generation of musicians in a family, the later generations start to have an innate talent for music. The same was true for the talent of polarizing reality via law and sin. A neural subroutine has formed that I like to call the Satan Subroutine; shadow side connected to the dark side of law.

If I was to say that law should be done away with, the prospect of no law is frightening to most, since the underlining premise of good and evil, due to millennia of selection and reinforcement, will cause you to see all kinds of evil appearing to the fill the void. As an analogy, defund the police in some Left leaning states caused crime spikes.

Each generation could not figurer out how to forgive sin, but rather each reinforced law and each define a whole new range of sins, which now include CO2, since CO2, the food of plants, is defined as subjective evil. The insanity continues due to the fear and the subjectivity law. The fact remains this conditioned POV; good and evil, will never bring one righteousness, since it is not even objective. The righteous man shall lives by faith in natural impulses without any law type value pre-judgement. Paul became all things, to all men or he learned to live in each land of subjective good and evil; culture, and was also able to cross the borders of sin to no sin, based on his faith.
 
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Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Abraham was not the son of an idol maker.
God DID bless Abraham's children and gave them the promised land.
God DID bless all the people of the world through Abraham and his children.
Abraham was a son of an idol maker written in the history of the Hebrews by Hebrews. There is no basis for your belief he is not the son of an idol maker, his people say he is.
Jesus said Abraham is the father of the lie. Jesus said, “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.” Abraham has no witness to God giving Abraham a covenant so there is no truth in it, it is just a claim by a proven by scripture liar.
Moses destroyed the tablets written by the finger of God refusing to show them to the people Moses was told by God to show them . Moses is a murderer hiding from justice. There is no water of salvation in the well of Jacob. Jesus was sent to Israel=jews because they are LOST, not the people of God yet claim they are. Jesus said those that want him killed do not love God or Jesus and are not the people of God. Jesus said in John 8: 21 that the Jews are going to die in their sins and he taught that in their temple.
Judas lost his Apostleship because he wanted Jesus to die. Paul is found in the house of Judas wanting Jesus dead so is not a man of God although being a Pharisee Paul lies saying he is.
Jesus said Abraham did not hear the voice of God. Jesus hears the voice of God. Abraham did not. Abraham rejoiced in the day his sons had Jesus killed because a lie always rejoices when the truth is destroyed so the lie is believed as truth.

The world is in constant torment and threat of a world nuclear war that will soon start because of Abraham and that is NOT a "blessing" as people are killed over their religious beliefs spawned by the man Jesus called the Devil, Abraham.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Sin is not imputed where there is no law. Once a law is created, it defines a new sin, bringing a new sin into the world. Sin does not exist without law first defining something as a sin. When Jesus died for our sins, he essentially did away with law, since without law, there is no more sin.

Original sin is based on Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Once they bought into the premise that social reality can be correlated to a polarization of good and evil and not an integration of nature, then law will appear to help define and control evil, thereby giving power to sin. As Paul said, I would not have known about coveting if the law did not tell me not to covet; prohibitions create temptations. New law often bring things to awareness, that many would not think of, for themselves.

As a modern example, in the USA during the COVID pandemic, it was a social sin not a wear a mask in some states; Left leaning states. But it was not a social sin, to not wear a mask, in other states; Right leaning states. The difference, in terms of sin, had to do with which states made a law that defined it a sin. The law states reinforced this newly defined sin with a carrot and stick; self righteousness versus punishment. It had to be evil or else they would not fine you, right?

If I stepped over the border, to an adjacent state, that had no mask law, now the exact same behavior is not a sin, by definition in that state. In the end, both ways led to about the same outcome in terms of the virus. This law was not objective, meaning even the sin was no objective, but subjective and defined by man.

Law is not always objective, but is very often subjective; based on political views. This is the main pitfall of law. Dictators will make laws to help them maintain power and control. They do not make laws to help define an objective path for social reality. They often define anything that makes them paranoid as a sin. If they are neurotic or project their own propensities for evil onto others, they may see evil, that is not really there and make strange behavior a sin. Censorship will make language a sin, with the wage of some words, death from Twitter. Law can get very self serving and arbitrary. But even self serving and subjective law can define new sins. All you need is the self righteous mob and punishment.

Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. This was a backdoor way for doing away with law. If you lived in a mask mandate state, and your were caught not wearing a mask, but you were forgiven by the patrol officer, this would lead to the same end result, as no law. Sin is only imputed when there is a law, so if the sin is neutralized because of forgiveness, you get the same end result as in a state that has no law. Back at the time of Jesus, each culture and sub-clique had their own pet laws. Some could eat pork and others could not due to sin being defined, but only in some places. This was not objective law.

Humans have been under law of good and evil for thousands of years; 6000 years. There has been genetic changes based on the natural selection process in the context of knowledge of good and evil, law and punishment. This polarization propensity and behavior is more or less engrained in our DNA. \This is how we all become sinners at birth. We are born with sin or the natural propensity to define things as good and evil or right and wrong, and then make a law, thereby defining sin for us and others.

If you had many generation of musicians in a family, the later generations start to have an innate talent for music. The same was true for the talent of polarizing reality via law and sin. A neural subroutine has formed that I like to call the Satan Subroutine; shadow side connected to the dark side of law.

If I was to say that law should be done away with, the prospect of no law is frightening to most, since the underlining premise of good and evil, due to millennia of selection and reinforcement, will cause you to see all kinds of evil appearing to the fill the void. As an analogy, defund the police in some Left leaning states caused crime spikes.

Each generation could not figurer out how to forgive sin, but rather each reinforced law and each define a whole new range of sins, which now include CO2, since CO2, the food of plants, is defined as subjective evil. The insanity continues due to the fear and the subjectivity law. The fact remains this conditioned POV; good and evil, will never bring one righteousness, since it is not even objective. The righteous man shall lives by faith in natural impulses without any law type value pre-judgement. Paul became all things, to all men or he learned to live in each land of subjective good and evil; culture, and was also able to cross the borders of sin to no sin, based on his faith.
Adam and Eve were not the first humans, they were the first of a race of people, Jews. Many other "races" of people were already alive for generations in the day the Jewish race was formed by the first Hebrew/Jew that invented his own God to worship he called Lord God so he could rule as that Lord in Genesis 2:4.
Their fake creation story is full of interesting symbolism though. The tree of knowledge is the tree of maturity that produces people that can discerned the difference between what is right and wrong. The forbidden by God fruit is believing a lie is the truth. Anyone that believes in a "talking serpent" is eating his forbidden by God fruit.
Anyone that believes an innocent child should be burned alive or an innocent man should be nailed to a cross to please a God serve the Devil Abraham that gained control of the world with his serpent lies. That is why Jesus called Abraham's sons, "Vipers" because they do the murdering works of Abraham and believe his lies are truth.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Son of God’ is a reference to those who are holy, righteous, and guided by the Spirit of God, and Jesus is such a man.

Anyone who is holy, righteous, and guided by the Spirit of God are called the son of God. Even Paul acknowledged that – “For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” – Romans 8:14. Angels too are called “the sons of God” (Job 38:7). Adam, the first human being, being a direct creation of God, is called “the son of God” (Luke 3:38). In John 1:12-13, we read about believing Jews who became “the children of God…children born out of God”.

So, being called ‘S/son of God’ got nothing to do with male or female DNA as Adam was created directly without any involvement of both male and female. Jesus was created with the involvement of a female as he was created in the womb of Mary who then gave birth to him through the normal human reproduction process.

Son of man’ in Aramaic is ‘bar enash and it means human being. Jesus, more often than not, referred to himself as the ‘son of man’ because he knew many people regarded him as God or God the Son, and he wanted them to know that he was just a human being like Adam or any other man, NOT God.
Judas lost his apostleship because he arranged for the death of Jesus. No other Apostle wanted Jesus to die because they had learned what "I desire mercy and not sacrifice" means. Jesus tells people to go and learn it. It was not the desire of God for Jesus to die. The death of Jesus removes no sins. The Jews die in their sins because they believe blood sacrifice and money can remove their sins and that makes them Lost, not the people of God. God never wanted any animal or human sacrificed to please Him and sent John the Baptist to teach that truth. Belief in water baptism is to remove belief in blood sacrifice for sin removal. The flesh and blood that Jesus wants people to eat and drink is DOCTRINE, listen and understand WORDS of confession and repentance, sincere prayer to God is all that is required for sin removal with no death of any life
required with the act of washing away sins with water baptism. Then no further action other than keeping the vow to love one another, living a kind, righteous life treating all people as equals with compassion proving their love of God is required.
People that want Jesus dead on a cross believe Jesus is the Son of man. Jesus praised Peter for knowing Jesus is not the Son of man but is the Son of God. Anyone that proclaims Jesus is both the Son of man and the Son of God are denying Father and Son. God is not a man, Jesus is the son of no man.

Royal bloodline only exists in the minds of people and is not granted by God. All people on Earth are equals and none are granted a throne of rule by God by blood/genetics. People can elect a ruler but to claim a throne only by genetics is not approved by the gospel of Jesus. Jesus in a court of law denied he wanted a throne, to be a king. People were trying to force that government upon his shoulders and Jesus rejected it. Jesus said OTHER people called him a King, he did not. Jesus desires separation of religion and government and Jesus wants to lead people into a righteous spirit based on truth from God so when people are elected to rule they will rule with love for the people as equals with none exalted above another because of wealth or position.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Jesus wanted men to know that He is the one in Daniel 7:13,14 who is given an everlasting Kingdom
Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Daniel's vision is of a fighter pilot and the clouds are on the wings of the Jet as it breaks the sound barrier. There are photos online where you can see that. The Ancient of days is nuclear fusion as our sun that creates days is made of nuclear fusion and it goes back to the first "day" that the planet Earth experienced. Nuclear Fusion is Ancient the source of suns. The nuclear missile is given power by the hand of the pilot to destroy and the Radiation that results from the use of it will rule Earth forever. Hundreds of nuclear power plants in meltdown because of battle are the self sustaining fire of Hell that no human on Earth survives. Be removed from this planet by Jesus or die on this planet because of a merciless thermonuclear world war where friends end up killing friends and brothers end up killing brothers.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Romans is written by a lying Pharisee that betrays Jesus like Judas did by wanting the death of Jesus. There are only 12 Apostles allowed and Paul is not one of them because no man that desires the death of Jesus is an Apostle.
You are right about all men being sons of God but only one man was created by God by a virgin birth with designed male DNA that had been in no prior human. God speaks directly to Jesus. Jesus is told about the future and is told by God to teach it. God gave the power of healing to Jesus and temple Pharisees were made aware they had the ability to judge and kill people but had no power from God to heal lepers, make blind people see and the lame walk. They were not chosen by God, to lead the people teaching religion, Jesus was the chosen by God.
Jesus is NOT the only one created directly by God. Adam was also created directly by God. In fact, as I have told you before, Adam was created without any involvement from any man or a woman. In Jesus’ creation, Mary was involved. Both are special, no doubt, BUT, their origins do NOT make them any different from any other man – they both are required to submit to the will of God to find eternal life. They, like any other man, are answerable to God for any of their actions.

As for God giving Jesus power, well, Jesus himself admitted, “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me” – John 5:30.

So, it turns out that all the amazing miracles Jesus did that we heard and read about were NOT because God gave him super-powers but those amazing miracles were performed by God through Jesus – “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.” – Acts 2:22

Understand the context in which he called himself the son of man, He did it with Judas to let Judas know he already knew Judas was going to betray him because Judas no longer believed Jesus was the son of God and thought Jesus was a son of man. As soon as Jesus said son of man Judas knew that Jesus knew Judas was betraying the Son of God. When the Son of Man comes to kill people Jesus explains what to do to keep from being killed. A man with the goal to kill people does not warn his victims how to keep from being killed. Jesus refused to be a killer and is not the Son of man that is a killer.
Why would Jesus need to call himself the ‘son of man’ just ‘to let Judas know he already knew Judas was going to betray him’?? It makes no sense.

In fact, in John 6:70-71, we are told Jesus knew Judas will betray him - ‘Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)’.

Whenever Jesus referred to himself as ‘son of man’, he’s telling you that he’s a human being, that is, a man, NOT a God/God the Son. What do you think ‘son of man’ means??
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Be aware that Jews circumcise themselves to show support for and belief in the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant is a unilateral covenant that God made with Abraham according to what Abraham said. Abraham had zero witnesses to God giving Abraham a covenant. No one ever verified it was truth, All people have is the word of a proven by scripture liar. We know Abraham was a married man but lied denying his vow of marriage by telling people he and his wife were single not married to each other.
Not quite true. Jews and Muslims carry out the practice of circumcision because it’s the Command from God. In Genesis 17:10, God said, “This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised”. In other words, the Covenant of Circumcision which is everlasting is between God and Abraham and all his descendants. Are Christians NOT the descendants of Abraham?

Abraham will lie if he thinks it will give him an advantage over people.
Jesus said without a witness to verify what happened actually did happen then what Abraham said is what Abraham wants people to believe and is unprovable as truth. Jesus was told by God that God never spoke with Abraham and Jesus explains that in John chapter 8. Abraham lied. God never spoke with Abraham and God never gave him a covenant. Abraham has no promise of land from God. Another lie is Abraham is promised to have descendants as numerous as the sand on the seashore.
Jesus said there is no salvation in Jacobs well, his religion and linage. So God gave no future Christ promise to Abraham thru Issacc or Jacob. No savior comes out of Abraham.
So what is used to establish the "royal" linage of Abraham but the dust man, rib woman ,talking snake fiction. Just like a Greek man made Zeus seem real by creating a lot of family members with lots of stories to support the existence of Zeus, Abraham the liar, made his linage of fake men that lived hundreds of years before dying and made his first father the first man Lord God created. The serpent is the most subtle Lord God created because Lord God Abraham is the serpent that made up that talking serpent fiction so Abraham could rule as the voice of Lord God. That is why Jesus called the sons of Abraham, "Vipers".
I don’t know from where your resentment towards Abraham came from, but definitely not from the Scripture or the Quran. Want to share your source of information??
 
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