SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I understand that you're making assertions that aren't backed by evidence and claiming them as fact.
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Love and Rebellion
- Thread starter David Davidovich
- Start date
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Nope.
ElishaElijah
Return
When I get a chance will send you the evidence, now about you claiming to be born of the Holy Spirit…how so?
ElishaElijah
Return
That’s not how you are born again or how faith comes that causes a person to seek God. God sets the rules, He said this is how faith works, this is how you receive eternal life.
If you want an explanation on this then would be happy to tell you.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Great. You should submit it to the Nobel Prize Committee while you're at it.
I didn't claim that.
ElishaElijah
Return
You said this so what did you mean by this?
More claims. "All people born of the Spirit since then, including myself have the Holy Spirit who is the down payment ... " That's not evidence. That's not proof. That's a claim.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
That's a quote from your post.
I’ve been debating Christians since 1996 so I’ve heard most everything. I know that Christians believe their learned dogma is true, but also that Christians can’t demonstrate their beliefs are true or rational.
But feel free to offer your explanation, but be aware it will be scrutinized objectively and for consistency with facts.
ElishaElijah
Return
Do you understand what faith is and can you explain these verses as it applies to you or anyone? This is the point where every human being finds themselves. I don’t believe you can prove or disprove this, you either believe it or not. If you don’t believe this you won’t seek God and find Him, if you do then you will seek God, find Him and then have your proof because He is the reward, He reveals Himself to you at that point. That’s how you get your proof.
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”
Hebrews 11:1, 3, 6 NKJV
ElishaElijah
Return
Thanks for clearing that up
and yes like I said it is proof for me but not for you. This may be a claim for you but it’s proof and something God did for me.Yes, faith is unreliable and uncertain. iT is a useless tool to trust to make decisions and navigate life. At best faith can be used if a person is in trauma and powerless and needs to believe in something for hope. This doesn't apply to everyday life.
If a person can't prove or disprove some idea then the intelligent thing to do is not to believe it. Why? Lack of evidence for a sound and rational conclusion.
How does belief lead to finding a God? What you really mean here is make a bad judgment based on assumptions and then you will find God. That's self-deception and illusion. It isn't knowledge of anything.
Self-deception via self-confirmation. In other words, assume something is true and then you will know it's true because you believe it's true, therefore how can you be wrong?
Well, that's what we critical thinkers do, point out how your thin king is highly flawed and biased.
This is the basis of non-rational faith in dogma. This doesn't work on people who want to know truth.
InChrist
Free4ever
Just a couple thoughts...
In Genesis, referring to creation, including the first humans, it does not say they were “perfect”, but states...
Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good... (Genesis 1:31)
The fact is that only God is a perfect Being, so any created beings are less than God and therefore not perfect. Less than perfect beings with freedom to choose have the ability to choose wrongly, make mistakes, or as the scriptures say-sin.
Also, the passage you referenced about love never failing was written by Paul to believers who had trusted Jesus Christ as their Savior, been born anew, and risen to new life in Christ. Christ already has the victory over sin and death on behalf of believers. Adam and Eve made their wrong choice and failed in their love for God before and without the in dwelling presence of Christ as their Savior.
I think the most important point is that the Creator wanted His creatures to be endowed with the freedom to choose because a real relationship based on love requires free choice. God is Love. We were created solely for an eternal loving relationship with our Creator, yet we each must willingly choose.
ElishaElijah
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It’s not irrational and by your comments you didn’t understand. You are one of those people who don’t have faith so obviously you won’t seek God or find Him.
My parents did promote prayer and encouraged us to trust God but we really were more into sports as a family. I wasn’t ever a Bible reading person because I had no real desire or understanding of it. I always did believe in God though, I always felt I had some kind of relationship even though I was drinking, partying and living a promiscuous lifestyle till I ended up a bankrupt person isolated from everyone. If I didn’t believe God was real had faith, I would’ve never prayed to Him for help in the first place. Now the all knowing person that you seem to believe you are has all the answers to how when I did cry out to God it must’ve been some super power I all of the sudden had within myself to deliver myself and change me. This is quite funny though. Because after that and continuing to seek God I was then saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and had different desires and could see life a lot differently. I do understand the Scriptures, I am free, I do have Eternal life, I am living the abundant life Jesus promised and this is all because of Jesus Christ. Like I said this is proof for me because it’s my life, I’m living it. But for you it’s not anything. For you to say my experience is anything other than what I told you, you will have to come up with your own evidence that what I say is false. Maybe do some interviews with my family or ask God yourself if what I say is true or not, maybe do some experiments.
ElishaElijah
Return
It was the best decision I ever made when I received Jesus Christ, was forgiven of my sin, born again and received eternal life. Nothing else worked, I was dying. What you are asking people to do is show me God’s invisible qualities, well they are “invisible”. You need a different set of eyes, you can get them here right now by being born again or you will see God later after you die, that’s when you will get the proof you’re asking for.
ElishaElijah
Return
Believers live by the Word of God and that does take faith. For instance when God says that He is not mocked, whatever a man sows he will reap.
We have found this to be true and I learned early on to sow good seed, physically in the garden and helping people with needs, God has continued to provide for our family even when I was at a poverty level income, we always gave. God always provided. So to say faith is unreliable and uncertain shows a lack of understanding of what faith is. Faith is trusting that God will do what He said. Well, you won’t know unless you trust what He said.
You say:Yes, faith is unreliable and uncertain.
Depends on what or who you place your trust/faith in. Everyone lives by faith, you do, is your faith uncertain, unreliable? Is whatever you trust in ever changing? What are you placing your trust in?
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Sure, believers need to use faith because Christian concepts are too fantastic and absurd to conclude via reason. Christians adopt an irrational framework of belief and apply these concepts to life in ways a church teaches them. It's no wonder that some folks are only Christian is name only, and the more fervent are more invested in the rhetoric. The dilemma is how conservatives christians tend to be republicans, and republic policies are counter to what Jesus taught. So that certainly creates a lot of confusion and inner conflict among Christians.
Doing good works should be required for all Christians just so there is some good that comes from this dogma. But it is still odd that God doesn't use magic to help the poor and humans need to pick up the slack. There are still natural disasters, wars, famine, poverty, diseases, greed among the wealthy, etc. and still God does nothing by stand by, and humans need to pick up the slack of this lazy God.
If Christians do good works just to make God look better, that's a bad motive.
Sure, it's a gamble. You invest faith in your friend Bob in him beating his drug habit. You help him get into rehab, get a job, invite him to dinner so he has support, etc. Then one day Bob meets an old friends, goes out for a drink at a bar, and ends up doing drugs again and nearly dies. Faith helped, but was unreliable.
Same with God. Your child gets diagnosed with cancer and you get her in the best hospital for treatment. You pray to God and have faith that God will save your little girl. Alas, the treatment don't work, your daughter dies. How did faith in God not work? What do you tell yourself? It's was God's plan, right? God's plan was for you to have a child then give it cancer so it suffers for nearly two years and dies shortly after 5 years of age?
Both of these scenarios are based on real life examples in my life of people I know. But hey, sometimes a person has faith and the things true out fine. The point is faith is unreliable and uncertain.
Faith helps people cope with uncertainty. It guarantees nothing.
As a competitive cyclist I have to trust all the car and truck drivers on the road. I've been hit 4 times over the last decade and have used my experience and skill to not be injured too badly. But I know cyclists are killed by careless drivers and it is a risk. I accept this risk, and trust myself to be careful and avoid drivers who I see are a threat.
I certainly won't go out and ride assuming a God is watching out for me. But perhaps God has saved an atheist 4 times, despite my lack of faith. Still, why does God kill children with cancer as a weapon? It don't add up.
ElishaElijah
Return
Well, did God say we weren’t going to die? Get sick? He didn’t but said this:
“Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.””
John 16:32-33 NKJV
The definition of faith is “trusting what God said and acting on that”. A lot of faith talk is more presumption. I heard people say things like I have faith for this or that and I ask them, did God tell you that?
There are concrete promises that God has made to me in His Word especially concerning eternal life. How do I know? Because He gave me the engagement ring of His Spirit as a guarantee. This isn’t something a person can get on their own merit or wishful thinking. It doesn’t take faith to believe I have the Holy Spirit because He lives in me, I know that, it does take faith to believe that I will live with God for eternity because I haven’t obtained that yet. He also said He would never leave or forsake us, so even in tragedy He will be with me.
It's more likely humans wrote this for their character of God. Let's be realistic.
This is what primitive people would say who face death, and can't explain their trauma and fear. We understand vastly more about life and death, and how our minds work today. We still fear death, but we have the chance to understand the reality of life and death.
Trusting God basically means to trust fate, and whatever comes, comes. No wise person approaches life like this. You don't have faith that God will prevent cavities in your teeth, you brush and go to the dentist. You don't have faith that God will protect you as you drive, and you can drive blindfolded, you use your experience and follow the rules. People who are negligent in personal responsibility take care of themselves, no need for faith in God. Of course, nature has it's own rules as it is a lottery of life and death. You might get cancer, you might not. You might survive your cancer, you might not. Faith is God won't make any difference. All faith will do is help folks cope with the uncertainty of life. And it guarantees nothing.
You don't know you bought into the indoctrination of whoever taught you. Telling yourself it is knowledge is your part in the conspiracy against your freedom of life and thinking.
This is all rhetoric you are repeating to help you justify what you believe. It's not factual. it's not demonstrably true. I doubt you understand why you post this rhetoric when you fail to provide any rational basis for a skilled thinker to agree with you.
ElishaElijah
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What do you mean it’s not factual? It certainly is, how can you say my relationship with God and what He has done in my life isn’t factual? You can say that, you can disbelieve me but as surely as I tell you I went on a service call and fixed someone’s AC unit is a fact, you can say you do t believe me, I could provide a receipt or could say my computer lost all the information, it still is fact whether provable to you or not.
Just like Jesus Christ rising from the dead is a fact, people saw Him after He was crucified, they wrote their testimonies, the grave is empty, believers and historians wrote about Him, archeological evidence as well. You can say you don’t believe but you cannot produce any evidence contrary because no body was in the tomb.
ElishaElijah
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And what reality exactly do you understand about life and death. What exactly do you know about death now more than anyone from the past.