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Jesus only Started one Church

Watchmen

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
KW said:
The Church exists in the entire 2000 year history since Christ.

Mormonism started with a known charlatan in the 19th century.

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, was subjected to approximately thirty criminal actions during his life.[1] Another source reports that Smith was arrested at least 42 times, including in the states of New York, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois.[2]
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Yep. Don’t disagree. How do you explain the prophesy that there would be a falling away?
 
KW

KW

Well-Known Member
Watchmen said:
Yep. Don’t disagree. How do you explain the prophesy that there would be a falling away?
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Jesus promised to be with his church until the end of the world. He also promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth.

What prophesy are you referring to?
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
metis said:
Thus, you defy what Jesus taught since the word "Church" ["Ecclesia" in Greek] is used 109 times in the N.T. [see Bible, Revised Standard Version (umich.edu)]. If it wasn't that important, then why did Jesus create his Church in the first place with the appointments of the Twelve, and then have the authors of the NT refer to it 109 times?

It was and is the Catholic Church that both composed and selected the canon of the Bible you probably use.

Also, Paul said that the Church is "one body" that was headed by the Apostles and their appointees. He did not teach that the Church was some sort of free-for-all whereas anything goes. It says that Jesus "taught with authority", which the Apostles did as well.

Anyway, have a Happy Easter.
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I never said the church is not important, it definitely is important.
I am just saying the Catholic Church is not “the church”. Jesus established the church, the Apostles spread the Gospel and the early church had all the OT scriptures and circulating letters of the NT well before any church council or Roman Catholic Church existed.
Have a blessed Easter.
He is Risen!
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
KW said:
The instruction from Jesus only makes sense if there is a single church with one message. How do you listen to multiple churches making contradictory claims?
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By reading the Bible and searching the scriptures daily to make sure what any pastor or teacher says lines up with the scriptures...


These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Watchmen said:
Yep. Don’t disagree. How do you explain the prophesy that there would be a falling away?
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I think Mormons take that passage about falling away out of context and use it inaccurately to justify the founding of their new church by Joseph Smith.
Although 1 Timothy 4 states there will be those who depart from the faith in the last days, the scriptures are also adamantly clear that the faith was ONCE for all delivered. So there was no necessity for it to be delivered again. Joseph Smith was a false prophet with a different and false gospel.


Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
Jude 1:3
 
KW

KW

Well-Known Member
InChrist said:
I never said the church is not important, it definitely is important.
I am just saying the Catholic Church is not “the church”. Jesus established the church, the Apostles spread the Gospel and the early church had all the OT scriptures and circulating letters of the NT well before any church council or Roman Catholic Church existed.
Have a blessed Easter.
He is Risen!
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Acts 15 is the first council
 
KW

KW

Well-Known Member
InChrist said:
True. You may note that it took place in Jerusalem ( not Rome) and was made up of Jews who had placed their faith in Jesus Christ. These were not Catholics.
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The location is irrelevant.

It was the same Church. It came to be based in Rome because that was where Peter settled and because it was the center of the empire

That is historical fact.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
KW said:
The location is irrelevant.

It was the same Church. It came to be based in Rome because that was where Peter settled and because it was the center of the empire

That is historical fact.
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No I disagree, the Catholic Church is not the same church started by Jesus and the Apostles. The narrative of the RCC is not historical fact. It is revisionist history created by the Catholic Church.

“The stark reality of the facts of history of the true church permeated with the Gospel of God’s grace in doctrine and practice utterly voids the papal assertion of an historical continuity between the early believers and the papal church via their dogma of apostolic succession. Rather the Roman Catholic Church is the proven schismatic from the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

History of the Early Church Invalidates Papal Claim of Apostolic Succession – Berean Beacon
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
KW said:
Do you believe a disobedient son should be killed?
I doubt it. The OT is full of quotes that are hard to understand. Sirach is no different than many other OT books in that Regard.
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When you say 'son' are you speaking of an adult son, or do you also have minors in mind _________
I don't know of minor children as being classed as drunks or gluttons.
Yet, some think Deuteronomy 21:18-21 is about delinquent minor children.
So, to some people the word 'son' is dealing with young or minor sons.
Minor children are Not taken to court - Deuteronomy 21:20.
Plus, as Deuteronomy 17:5-7 says there needs to be a least two witnesses to one's criminal case.

Sirach is different because it does Not have the cross-reference corresponding or paralled Bible verses as the '66' books of Bible canon has.
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words., " it is written....." meaning already written down in the OT.
The '66' do Not contradict each other but are in harmony with each other. Sirach contradicts the '66' harmonious books.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
KW said:
.........................What does this passage mean to you?
John 20:21Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.
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Jesus said to 'them' (apostles) in this case for example:
One case that involved apostolic involvement (serious issues) I find is that of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11) who played false to God's spirit. Peter, who heard what Jesus said at John 20:22-23, is the one who exposed Ananias and Sapphira. Peter did Not forgive their deliberate sinning but proclaimed adverse judgement.
Thus, the apostles had God's insight into the matter, so they would declare 'God's forgiveness or retention of sins'.
Un-repentant practices would Not be forgiven by the apostles such as found at 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
Forgiveness must be based on Jesus' ransom sacrifice, otherwise God would Not forgive - 1 John 1:8-10.
Nor would the apostles forgive. The apostles view on matters simply reflected God's view as biblically presented.
 
KW

KW

Well-Known Member
InChrist said:
No I disagree, the Catholic Church is not the same church started by Jesus and the Apostles. The narrative of the RCC is not historical fact. It is revisionist history created by the Catholic Church.

“The stark reality of the facts of history of the true church permeated with the Gospel of God’s grace in doctrine and practice utterly voids the papal assertion of an historical continuity between the early believers and the papal church via their dogma of apostolic succession. Rather the Roman Catholic Church is the proven schismatic from the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

History of the Early Church Invalidates Papal Claim of Apostolic Succession – Berean Beacon
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That’s opinion, not history.
URAVIP2ME said:
Jesus said to 'them' (apostles) in this case for example:
One case that involved apostolic involvement (serious issues) I find is that of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11) who played false to God's spirit. Peter, who heard what Jesus said at John 20:22-23, is the one who exposed Ananias and Sapphira. Peter did Not forgive their deliberate sinning but proclaimed adverse judgement.
Thus, the apostles had God's insight into the matter, so they would declare 'God's forgiveness or retention of sins'.
Un-repentant practices would Not be forgiven by the apostles such as found at 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
Forgiveness must be based on Jesus' ransom sacrifice, otherwise God would Not forgive - 1 John 1:8-10.
Nor would the apostles forgive. The apostles view on matters simply reflected God's view as biblically presented.
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Jesus gave the leaders of his church, the apostles, his authority to forgive sins.

The church Jesus started has his authority to forgive sins.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
...........“What makes the Roman Catholic purported method of salvation so horrific is that it is a rejection of the manifest love of God given in the Gospel.”.........
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At a Catholic uncle's funeral the priest said that he was told Mr. Kish was a pius man, however, the sacrifice of Jesus was Not enough to keep him out of purgatory. ( pray and pay for masses to get him out of purgatory ).
I did wonder what Scripture the priest had in mind_________
Especially since Romans 6:7 says the dead ARE acquitted of their sins.
Adam was Not pius, there was No post-mortem penalty to pay for dead Adam. No double jeopardy for dead Adam.
 
KW

KW

Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME said:
At a Catholic uncle's funeral the priest said that he was told Mr. Kish was a pius man, however, the sacrifice of Jesus was Not enough to keep him out of purgatory. ( pray and pay for masses to get him out of purgatory ).
I did wonder what Scripture the priest had in mind_________
Especially since Romans 6:7 says the dead ARE acquitted of their sins.
Adam was Not pius, there was No post-mortem penalty to pay for dead Adam. No double jeopardy for dead Adam.
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I don’t believe a priest said that.

Your prejudice is clear.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
KW said:
There are dozens. It appears you know little of Christian history.
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Here are the verses I find with Rome mentioned:
Acts of the Apostles 2:10
Acts of the Apostles 18:2
Acts of the Apostles 19:21
Acts of the Apostles 23:11
Acts of the Apostles 28:14
Acts of the Apostles 28:16
Romans 1:7
Romans 1:15
2 Timothy 1:17
I can't find any verses that mention or connect Peter to Rome.
 
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