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Are you a liar?

F1fan

Veteran Member
I don’t walk on eggshells. I have no reason to fear, as I am free forever in the love of Christ.
Of course not. *wink*

No where does the scripture say God created the Serpent which tempted A&E.
So some other God created it?

The scriptures reveal that God created a beautiful angelic being; Lucifer who chose to rebel becoming a fallen angel/Devil intent on being God’s enemy and an enemy of creation.
God just sucks at creating loyal beings according to the Bible.

The serpent was merely one of God’s animal creatures, which the devil then possessed to deceive A&E. It was not a set-up. God did not send the devil/serpent.
So God couldn't control what was going on with all these creatures it created in the world it created that wen't horribly different than what God wanted?

Certainly God being all-knowing knew what would happen, therefore He had valid reasons for allowing it to happen.
So God knew A&E would fail, thus it was a set up. Since God would have known the outcome it had the chance to create things in a way that the Fall wouldn't happen. But it did.

A&E certainly were not naive or stupid, though, as the scriptures indicate they walked with God each, they knew His love, care and provision in the beautiful garden environment. Yet, they chose to listen to and follow the lies of the serpent rather than trust and obey one simple instruction from God.
So how smart were A&E to screw up one simple instruction? And God knew this would happen, yet did nothing to change the outcome. So God wanted this outcome.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Yes, you have been good to not cross the line. Too bad you weren't in the Garden, perhaps you wouldn't have disobeyed God. What do you think?

I am sure I would have disobeyed. Anyone would, do you know why?





I don't believe they are, it's a fact that Christians assume God and Jesus exist. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise. I understand that believers treat their assumptions/beliefs as if true. This is part of religious behavior and activity.


I disagree. In debate it IS the intent and purpose to convince others that your position is valid and true as claimed. Theists have a dilemma in that their beliefs are no very well evidenced.


That God hasn't done this to any of millions of atheists is a bad sign. And even most theists admit their beliefs are uncertain and faith-based. So God seems to ignore believers as well as atheists.

This may be a place of debate, but we are also living in a physical realm now and if one isn’t willing to consider anything beyond the material, nothing I say will convince. Besides, I believe God desires that people seek Him to be convinced. I don’t think God ignores anyone who truly seeks. For myself, there is no doubt. I know God; He saved me, delivered me out of darkness and I have eternal life.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
That God hasn't done this to any of millions of atheists is a bad sign. And even most theists admit their beliefs are uncertain and faith-based. So God seems to ignore believers as well as atheists.

"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

It seems like a pretty sadistic plan to me for an all-knowing, all-powerful God to create people to be wicked only to punish them with everlasting torture and suffering in an eternal hell. Did you know that God predestines people to be saved? "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30), and "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves" (Ephesians 1:4-6). Basically, God created people whom he will save for an everlasting life with him in heaven, and he created people whom he will condemn to an eternal hell of never-ending torment and suffering.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I am sure I would have disobeyed. Anyone would, do you know why?
Because they never read the Bible?

This may be a place of debate, but we are also living in a physical realm now and if one isn’t willing to consider anything beyond the material, nothing I say will convince.
That's because you are making religious claims that have no evidence.

Besides, I believe God desires that people seek Him to be convinced. I don’t think God ignores anyone who truly seeks. For myself, there is no doubt. I know God; He saved me, delivered me out of darkness and I have eternal life.
This is irrelevant.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13
Irrelevant.

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20
False, no one knows any such thing. Some believe it.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Of course, God set up Adam and Eve. There are several verses in the Bible that assert God is all-powerful, all-knowing and ever-present, which means he knew A&E would be tempted by the apple on the tree of life, and they would disobey his command by eating the apple. Despite having this foreknowledge, he creates A&E anyway, but instead of correcting his mistake then and there, he cruelly decides to curse and punish the rest of humanity for A&E's disobedience against him. He also formulates an extremely vile plan to sacrifice his own son in order to correct his colossal mistake of creating morally flawed human beings. God also created Lucifer, knowing beforehand that Lucifer and the other angels would rebel against him. God set Lucifer and man up to fall before he created anything. In other words, Lucifer and humanity are nothing more than God's playthings to control and manipulate.
There is nothing said about the fruit being an “apple”. I think it’s better not to superimpose your own perceptions onto the scriptures, whether it be with regard to the fruit or the rest of your narrative claiming God manipulates or considers His creations mere playthings. The scriptures repeatedly declare God to be a God of love. The sacrifice of Christ was a demonstration of love and an act which the Son was in full, willing agreement with. So don’t bother with the false accusation that the Father perpetuated some vile act against His Son.
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. John 15:13

It is obvious to me that God loves His creation and though you may not understand God’s reason for doing things as He does, your limited knowledge and misunderstanding does not determine whether He has valid reasons and a good plan; the best plan.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

It seems like a pretty sadistic plan to me for an all-knowing, all-powerful God to create people to be wicked only to punish them with everlasting torture and suffering in an eternal hell. Did you know that God predestines people to be saved? "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30), and "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves" (Ephesians 1:4-6). Basically, God created people whom he will save for an everlasting life with him in heaven, and he created people whom he will condemn to an eternal hell of never-ending torment and suffering.
God needs a savior more than humans.

Could a God impregnate a woman against her will, and then have the kid tortured and executed for the sins of mankind, but also piggyback salvation for itself, and then allow Jesus to resurrect, even if that sort of invalidates the whole idea of a blood sacrifice, and God is still be the good guy?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

It seems like a pretty sadistic plan to me for an all-knowing, all-powerful God to create people to be wicked only to punish them with everlasting torture and suffering in an eternal hell. Did you know that God predestines people to be saved? "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30), and "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves" (Ephesians 1:4-6). Basically, God created people whom he will save for an everlasting life with him in heaven, and he created people whom he will condemn to an eternal hell of never-ending torment and suffering.
You are misinterpreting those scriptures out of context. God did not create people to be wicked, on the contrary He desires that none should perish and all to be saved.
2 Peter 3:9

Have you been taught the doctrines of Calvinism, rather than the Bible?
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
God needs a savior more than humans.

Could a God impregnate a woman against her will, and then have the kid tortured and executed for the sins of mankind, but also piggyback salvation for itself, and then allow Jesus to resurrect, even if that sort of invalidates the whole idea of a blood sacrifice, and God is still be the good guy?

A God who orders his followers to mercilessly massacre an entire race of people and wipe them off the face of the Earth; killing every man, woman, child and infant and slaughtering all of their animals (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17) is not the good guy. A God who commits worldwide genocide; drowning all of humanity in a global flood (except for one man, his wife, his sons and his son's wives) isn't the good guy. A God who allowed the Holocaust and every other atrocity throughout the history of mankind isn't the good guy. That's a sadistic and barbaric God, because he creates evil, disaster and calamity (Isaiah 45:7).
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
God needs a savior more than humans.

Could a God impregnate a woman against her will, and then have the kid tortured and executed for the sins of mankind, but also piggyback salvation for itself, and then allow Jesus to resurrect, even if that sort of invalidates the whole idea of a blood sacrifice, and God is still be the good guy?
Mary was willing. Read the account before you make up stuff.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
A God who orders his followers to mercilessly massacre an entire race of people and wipe them off the face of the Earth; killing every man, woman, child and infant and slaughtering all of their animals (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17) is not the good guy. A God who commits worldwide genocide; drowning all of humanity in a global flood (except for one man, his wife, his sons and his son's wives), isn't the good guy.
God is the Judge.
He was passing judgment on people/cultures who had hundreds of years of warning to turn from their extreme wickedness.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
God needs a savior more than humans.

Could a God impregnate a woman against her will, and then have the kid tortured and executed for the sins of mankind, but also piggyback salvation for itself, and then allow Jesus to resurrect, even if that sort of invalidates the whole idea of a blood sacrifice, and God is still be the good guy?
Jesus said...

No one takes it from Me, but I lay itdown of Myself. I have power to lay itdown, and I have power to take itagain. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:18

If there was no resurrection there would be no hope, nor eternal life for anyone.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
ARE YOU A LIAR?

The evangelist John asks a very challenging question in his first epistle (1 John 2:22). He asks, 'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

He goes on to say, 'He is an anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:'

Strong words from a man who preached a God of love!

But, how does one arrive at the position that a man is a liar if he denies that Jesus is Christ? I guess the opening premise is that God is Truth [Deut. 32:4 etc]. From here one can reasonably deduce that God's Word is true, and that Christ, coming from God, is the Word of God [Rev. 19:13]. If this be the case, then a denial of Christ is a denial of truth [John 14:6]. To deny truth is to make truth a lie. Is this, therefore, the unforgivable sin?

Christ deniers really have no rock to stand on when 'truth' becomes a victim, as happens in war. Where is the hope of justice if there is no God to hear your cry? If your daughter is raped and murdered by soldiers, or your son tortured, tied and shot in the back of the head, how do you respond? Hate and seek revenge? Add your vitriol to the great hell of war? Seek justice from courts that may never provide justice? Give up on life itself, with no hope of glory?

I'm with Paul, who said, 'For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.' [Phil.1:21]

Clara Tea's opinion:

Your question provokes Jews to fight (or at least defend themselves). That is hardly the role of a peaceful religion. Your post pits Christians against Jews....very hostile.

If what you say is true (that anyone who denies that Jesus was the Messiah is a liar) then all Jews would be liars. Otherwise, they would have converted to Christianity long ago.

God pretenders are a dime a dozen (as they were in the days of Jesus).

Jews heard of the miracles of Jesus, and assumed that he dabbled in the occult and was an evil sorcerer.

The whole idea of a Messiah came from Jewish prophets, and it was written in ancient Hebrew. Because Jews were not allowed to speak their native language or have bibles (old testament), their language (old Hebrew) died out, and only recently did they speak a new form of Hebrew that is approximately the same.

Jews have a better chance to interpret old Hebrew prophecies that Christians, because most Christians don't speak Hebrew at all (not old Hebrew which is now extinct, and not new Hebrew).

So, Jews should know whether or not a God pretender is really the Messiah or just another fraud (and there have been so many of them).

Of course the New Testament would say that Jesus was the Messiah (that is what the entire religion is about). But does that necessarily mean that it is true?

When Mary (mother of Jesus) had Jesus, fooling around with another man was a stoning offense (stoned to death). Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, and while she was she had Jesus. What choice did she have but to come up with a story that she was a virgin and that God was the father of the baby. Is it really like God to have a baby with a betrothed woman? I thought that God told us not to covet our neighbor's wives? If so, it seems as though God, Himself, committed a cardinal sin by having Jesus.

Maybe it is all a story designed to cover up a sex scandal (fooling around with another man while betrothed to Joseph?)?

Even in our day there are frauds who pretend to be of God.

For example, God said "thou shalt not kill" and President George W. Bush, elected by the Religious Right, made two wars (Iraq and Afghanistan) against peaceful people not linked to terrorism, also tried to lie us into war with Niger, falsely claiming that Niger sold Iraq Uranium yellow cake (but Wilson refused to lie so they outed his CIA wife, Valery Plame), and also W. Bush fought in Somalia (doesn't it seem odd to fight against such powerless people?).

Another example of a fraud who pretends to be of God: Jeb Bush said that hurricanes would not hit Florida while he was governor, and when one did, he said that it destroyed the trailer trash people (not the rich who could afford solid homes that don't blow away).

With so many people defying God and pretending to be prophets of God, it gets very confusing. So, how do you tell the difference between a real prophet of God and a phony? Simple....follow the money trail (greed.....lower taxes for the rich, and use the proceeds to move factories abroad to take advantage of cheap foreign labor and cheap foreign materials (which break). You can follow the blood trail (wars, torture camps). You can follow the callousness (ignoring the poor). You can follow the environmental damage (pollution, global warming). All of these trails lead to Satan, and this is why the world is so messed up today.

There is quite a difference between denying the existence of a Messiah, and denying that Jesus was that Messiah. Sure, the Jews believed that there would be a Messiah, and they were not trying to defy God or be disrespectful. However, in order to believe that Jesus was that Messiah, there has to be more proof than just a bible that someone claims is the word of God. Many claimed that they spoke the word of God, yet, there is no proof that they did.

You said that Christ deniers don't have a rock to stand on. Well, they might not deny that someone is Christ, but deny that Jesus was that person.

There is plenty of evidence that Jesus was not the Messiah. If Jesus was the Messiah, the Christian church would be a force for good. Instead, we see that there were Salem witch trials, in which Christians murdered innocent people. We see wars, tortures, denial of science, etc. I can hardly find any evidence that Christianity helped anyone in a big way. There are a few instances of Christian charity (currently an organization of Christians and Jews are helping holocaust survivors of Russia). But the problems that Christians created certainly outweigh the benefits, so far, and that is why the world is in such a mess.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
The NT is clear about the Holy Spirit, the fruit of which is described in these words, 'love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance'.

In opposition to the fruit of the Spirit of God we have, 'Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:' [Gal.5]

I'm sorry that you've been treated badly, but l think it's wrong to blame the Lord. Jesus is the Lord, l believe, and it's evident from the scriptures, and indwelling Holy Spirit, that Jesus is the righteousness of God.

Can you tell me of anything that Jesus said, or did, that does not convey his compassion for mankind, or his righteousness?

When George W. Bush sobers up, will he apologize for making wars? He was in Skull and Bones (Satanic club), and used the bones of Geronimo, which grandfather Bush stole for the club to do Satic rituals and idolatry. Were his morals strong when drunk? Why does the Religious Right support gun rights and the NRA? The pope is on the NRA's enemy list.

Many parts of the bible say that Jesus is the son of God. The bible says that Jesus can be called lord (as the son of God). The bible also says that there is only one God, and there is no other. Thus, there are parts of the bible that say that the notion of the trinity is wrong.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
The NT is clear about the Holy Spirit, the fruit of which is described in these words, 'love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance'.

In opposition to the fruit of the Spirit of God we have, 'Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:' [Gal.5]

I'm sorry that you've been treated badly, but l think it's wrong to blame the Lord. Jesus is the Lord, l believe, and it's evident from the scriptures, and indwelling Holy Spirit, that Jesus is the righteousness of God.

Can you tell me of anything that Jesus said, or did, that does not convey his compassion for mankind, or his righteousness?

Opinion of Clara Tea:

Theists describe Christianity as peaceful.

That doesn't ring true, given all of the wars that they made against peaceful people (Iraq, Afghanistan, taking land from Native Americans, etc).

Calling Christianity peaceful seems like lying. It is as if they can't handle the truth.

Imagine a man who poisons someone to death, then hangs the dead body, then shoots the corpse, and over and over again does deadly things to the dead body. I would think that this person has an anger issue. I would wonder about the motives and soundness of logic of anyone who says that he is a man of peace.

Yet, theists somehow get away with lying to themselves and lying to others.

I thought that God was supposed to be against liars?

Maybe torture camps are okay if we can later lie about them? Deny holocausts? Deny torture camps by redefining the word torture, as attorney John Woo did for W. Bush? Deny wars? Deny enviroinmental damage? Suggest that theists be in control and run things so that we will have peace?

All this amounts to "lying for Christ." Such lies could cover up child molesting priests (with the idea that telling the truth might somehow harm the church and the religion). This cover up allowed boy molesting priests to continue raping innocent little boys as they were moved to new parishes. Now the Catholic church seeks bankruptcy to protect its assets and prevent its victims from getting just compensation.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
All kinds of people and Angels are connected to Jesus, according to Scripture.

Scripture says "we are one body in Christ".

Paul said "it is no longer I who live, but Christ", in Scripture.

If a person can be transformed into Christ, we are one body in Christ, that would mean a lot of people carry Jesus in them, are one with Christ, and can lead people to the Father.

Jesus also said "call no man your Father", but Scripture says "honor your father and your mother", and Paul said "I became your Father", and Stephen referred to Abraham as Father.

So, call no man your Father, doesn't mean call no man your Father.

Jesus also said "call no man your teacher". He obviously didn't mean what he said.

Jesus said "if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out".. He didn't mean it , or I would have no eyes.

Jesus said you can move mountains and trees with faith the size of a mustard seed.

Jesus often didn't mean what was said.

Scripture is extremely hard to interpret.

God is love Scripture says. There are Christians with no love, and Buddhists who are full of love.

Please quit assuming you know exactly what Jesus was talking about, in a book that very often doesn't speak literally!:mad:
It's important to understand the process of redemption. The Father sent the Son, who becomes the head of the Church, the body of Christ. The Church is also called the bride, because the wife is made from the 'rib' of her husband. In spiritual terms, this means that the Church is of the same Spirit as its head, which is Christ.

Individuals within the Church have the seal of the Holy Spirit but not the full measure, which resides in the head. When the marriage feast takes place, at the return of the groom, the two (head and body) are united as one.

Human love and God's love are not the same. The Spirit that is received from above is not our's to boast about! It's the gift of God.

Try reading Romans 10:1-5.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Opinion of Clara Tea:

Theists describe Christianity as peaceful.

That doesn't ring true, given all of the wars that they made against peaceful people (Iraq, Afghanistan, taking land from Native Americans, etc).

Calling Christianity peaceful seems like lying. It is as if they can't handle the truth.

Imagine a man who poisons someone to death, then hangs the dead body, then shoots the corpse, and over and over again does deadly things to the dead body. I would think that this person has an anger issue. I would wonder about the motives and soundness of logic of anyone who says that he is a man of peace.

Yet, theists somehow get away with lying to themselves and lying to others.

I thought that God was supposed to be against liars?

Maybe torture camps are okay if we can later lie about them? Deny holocausts? Deny torture camps by redefining the word torture, as attorney John Woo did for W. Bush? Deny wars? Deny enviroinmental damage? Suggest that theists be in control and run things so that we will have peace?

All this amounts to "lying for Christ." Such lies could cover up child molesting priests (with the idea that telling the truth might somehow harm the church and the religion). This cover up allowed boy molesting priests to continue raping innocent little boys as they were moved to new parishes. Now the Catholic church seeks bankruptcy to protect its assets and prevent its victims from getting just compensation.
A distinction needs to be made between actions made that follow the Spirit of Christ, and actions that follow the lusts of the flesh. If you read Romans, you will see that a war continues to be waged between the flesh and the Spirit even after coming to faith. This battle is won by those who continue to worship 'in Spirit and truth'.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
To lie is to tell falsehoods to deceive with the sole purpose of causing harm and damage. Are you saying all non believers are liars? I know my own intentions as a non believer. I can tell you I have no such intentions.

So do you make your judgment on the sole basis of these passages? It sounds like a claim that Jesus is the obvious truth and all nonbelievers are choosing to be willfully blind out of resentment toward your God.

That is very interesting. I would consider this fundamentalist Christianity and a very literal reading of the Bible through the words of the NT.

I believe the authors of the NT would approve of your interpretation of it. I also think it's not reality based.

As for justice for the non believer I would rather know reality for what it is then live for a promise that will never come to pass.

What test do you have that Christianity is true?
I believe evidence for Jesus Christ is to be found in the Bible, working in conjunction with the Holy Spirit. One testifies of the other. Both lead us to the Father.
 
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