Christmas & Santa are agents of evil sent by Satan the Devil

I have to admit, vbmenu_register("postmenu_75714", true); t3gah, I'm rather amazed at your posts. You just keep posting more "evidence" in support of your predefined position. However, you completely ignore any critical examination of your "evidence" to see if it is valid or relevant. Instead, as someone criticizes one post you make, you post more quotes, verses, and online citations. I find myself wondering, though. Have you sincerely read these with a critical eye to determine the truth? Or are you merely grabbing anything that might support your predefined position and gobbling it down without any examination.

In other words, what are you really looking for? Are you trying to find the truth about Christianity and Christmas? Or are you just trying to "prove yourself right" about it?
vbmenu_register("postmenu_75714", true);

It seems to me that you are encouraging the criticism, t3gah. I mean that not as a go at you, but as of somewhat advice..

Pensive raises some AWESOME points that EVERYONE needs to focus on.

Some people have come to SF to learn... they tend to teach instead without realising it (Some awesome lessons too!).

Some people come to SF to debate. They think they know what they believe and they want to test their assumptions. They are quick to point when the Crap-O-Meter is pointing in the wrong direction.

Some people come to SF to teach... and they are frustrated because the students are so much better teachers! They either turn to being a student or a debater.

Some read the Bible to justify their actions. They don't mind putting square pegs in round holes as long as they can justify the ends in their mind.

Some people read the Bible to learn about what God wants. They freely admit to knowing very little and are open to listening to all views.

NetDoc said:

Some people have come to SF to learn...
Some people come to SF to debate...
Some people come to SF to teach...

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Many go there for the sea food.

In Leviticus 18:3 God gives the command that the Israelites not take up the pagan practices of Egypt and Canaan.

Christ Mass (mass of Christ) and Christmas aren't detailed out in the scriptures. And those that created them admit they are pagan celebrations.

Celebrate Christ Mass (mass of Christ) or Christmas and you are not a Christian.

The Christian celebration of the Messiah (Christ) was one Jesus himself initiated with the apostles on the night of Nisan 14. The night of the passover which has now been abolished with the death and resurrection of the Messiah (Christ). Eating of the unleavened bread and drinking of the wine once a year on Nisan 14, not April 14 or the week of April 14th. When or what is Nisan 14? You can check this out at (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar).

In Acts this celebration or commemoration of Jesus' death is detailed out again by the apostles.

So the only "celebrations" we Christians are to observe are the ones detailed out in the scriptures themselves. Since the Mosaic Law has been replaced with a new covenant of the Messiah, those festivals are no longer valid. If you want to see what they were you can look them up in your bibles in the books of, Exodus, chapter 23, verses 14-16 and Leviticus, chapter 23, verses 1-8 and there are others which I won't go into detail here.

t3gah said:

The night of the passover which has now been abolished with the death and resurrection of the Messiah (Christ).

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That is a baseless and fundamentally antisemitic belief about two equally baseless stories. This is a debate forum.

The Voice of Reason said:

No - frubals are a feedback system, designed to let each member know how the thoughts that they post are viewed by others in this community.

If this were a face-to-face roundtable, we would be able to see and hear the small comments that are intended to show support for our positions on all these widely arrayed subjects.

Negative frubals are the vehicle by which the moderators and supporters let us know that we are being argumentative just for the sake of being rude.

TVOR

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People can also abuse this 'system' by ganging up on someone if they don't like them, etc. Also it brings the scripture to mind that I just posted.

And the reason that I said they are a joke is because someone put a 23 point negative frubal on me for posting my koneecheewa link. That person could have just not participated in the conversation but nnnnno! gotta stone the guy with a negative frubal! And there were no comments for it, how's that for the 'face-to-face' system?! Really nice system.

Regardless of what it's supposed to be used for, there's the first example of why it's wrong.

Deut. 32.8 said:

That is a baseless and fundamentally antisemitic belief about two equally baseless stories. This is a debate forum.

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wrong.

The admin's or moderators moved this thread from Discussion to Religious Debates and they won't move it back.

pensive said:

I have to admit, t3gah, I'm rather amazed at your posts. You just keep posting more "evidence" in support of your predefined position. However, you completely ignore any critical examination of your "evidence" to see if it is valid or relevant. Instead, as someone criticizes one post you make, you post more quotes, verses, and online citations. I find myself wondering, though. Have you sincerely read these with a critical eye to determine the truth? Or are you merely grabbing anything that might support your predefined position and gobbling it down without any examination.

In other words, what are you really looking for? Are you trying to find the truth about Christianity and Christmas? Or are you just trying to "prove yourself right" about it?

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The reason I'm not debating is because it's a Christian bible principle. Christian's are not permitted to debate.

1 Timothy 2:8

Phillipians 2:14

1 Timothy 6:4

1 Corinthians 1:20

t3gah said:

wrong.

The admin's or moderators moved this thread from Discussion to Religious Debates and they won't move it back.

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t3.....

If you look back at the first page of this thread, you will notice that you answered a post that presented a different view in... I think.... post #3 of this thread. When you did so, YOU made it a debate and I moved it.

If you choose to offer something and don't want to discuss or debate it, in the future, please do not respond to a post and click the report button. The Admin and Mods will get the report and delete/warn the poster and you will be free from having to debate your views.

*** MOD POST ***
Back on topic please..... save the frubal discussion for another thread.

Scott

t3gah said:

In Leviticus 18:3 God gives the command that the Israelites not take up the pagan practices of Egypt and Canaan.

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Once again, I'd argue that you're freebasing Scriptures. (I love that term, and should really frubal NetDoc for introducing me to it.) The next several verses in Leviticus 18 goes into great length describing the kinds of practices and statutes that God is talking about in verse three. You have taken an introductory statement into a series of instructions and applied it to whatever you want it to mean.

t3gah said:

wrong. The admin's or moderators moved this thread from Discussion to Religious Debates and they won't move it back.

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I stand corrected. My apologies.

Hey Pensive...

I think "Freebasing Scriptures" about sums it up to. And hey, you were there when I conjured it up! It seems that scriptures are being twisted way out of context to validate a pre-concieved idea.

t3gah said:

The reason I'm not debating is because it's a Christian bible principle. Christian's are not permitted to debate.

1 Timothy 2:8

Phillipians 2:14

1 Timothy 6:4

1 Corinthians 1:20

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Please try reading Acts 17. And the rest of Acts, for that matter. I think that you will find that Paul was quite fond of debating.

Perhaps you should try reading more than one verse at a time.

Nicholas was the Bishop of Myra around 310 A.D.
He used his own money to buy many people out of slavery, I believe the emphasis was on children. He was elevated to sainthood after death and the roman catholic church made Dec. 6, Saint Nicholas day, when children were given gifts to remember his efforts on their behalf.
After the protestant movement, even though protestants did not believe in saints, they continued to honor Nicholas and created new characters based on him,Father Christmas, Pere Noel,ect...
American Dutch settlers through bad pronunciation of Saint Nicholas perverted it to Sinta Claes, which in turn became Santa Claus. There is no connection between santa and satan.
If you step back and take a look at what the legend of Santa Claus has evolved into and consider that children can't grasp complex ideas the way that most adults can you might consider the story as something of a primer for Christian belief related on a level that children can more easily grasp.
The concept of Omnipresence, He can travel the world in a single night .
The concept of omniscience, He sees you when your sleeping, He knows when your awake, He knows when you've been bad or good.
The concept of omnipotence,(and this may be a stretch but consider it on the level of a childs understanding) He delivers rewards to "good children" .
Add to this Washington Irving's satire about Santas flying wagon used to distribute presents, Clement Moore's poem The Night before Christmas, and the artistic representation of the jolly elf from mister Moore's poem by Thomas Nast (complete with a map to the fabled workshop at the north pole-an inaccessible location for the normal human which I submit may be compared to heaven, at least in our present form) and you have a pretty good foundation to build upon.
Induction.
Faust.

t3gah said:

People can also abuse this 'system' by ganging up on someone if they don't like them, etc. Also it brings the scripture to mind that I just posted.
Regardless of what it's supposed to be used for, there's the first example of why it's wrong. There's the scripture where the apostle Peter says "how many times must I forgive my brother?". With frubals there's no forgiveness, is there?

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If you feel like you are being "ganged up on", it is a reflection of the fact that there are multiple people telling you they don't care for either your attitude or the delivery style of your message (possibly both).
I, am not one of them, as I do not have the ability to negafrubal, nor do I want it. If I disagree with something I read, and feel strongly enough about it, I will address it in a post. As for "forgiveness", you couldn't be more wrong. If there were no way to positively frubal, we would all be in the red.

Thanks,
TVOR

t3gah said:

The reason I'm not debating is because it's a Christian bible principle. Christian's are not permitted to debate.

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You're gonna have to help me on this one - I have never heard of anything remotely like this. Skeptical. Very skeptical. Highly skeptical. Exceedingly skeptical.

TVOR

"The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of New Testament origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the New Testament, or, indeed, from any other source." (M'Clintock and Strong's Cyclopædia, New York, 1871, Vol 2, p 276)

"The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice, when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the 'rebirth of the sun.'. The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration." (Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol 6, p 666)

"The date of Christ's birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month. According to the hypothesis suggested by H. Usener and accepted by most scholars today, the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the Invincible Sun). On Dec. 25, 274, Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome." (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol 3, p 656)

The Voice of Reason said:

You're gonna have to help me on this one - I have never heard of anything remotely like this.

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1 Timothy 2:8 Click Me (new world translation @ watchtower.org)

t3gah said:

Celebrate Christ Mass (mass of Christ) or Christmas and you are not a Christian.

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Whoa!! Pardon me, but I must strongly disagree with you there!

Since you are fond of quoting Scripture, please give a me a verse that backs up this statement. Better yet, give me a verse that makes that statement outright. Who are we to say who is and isn't a Christian, anyway? Isn't that between God and each individual? God is the judge, not us. Doesn't John 3:16, that very well-known verse, say that whoever believes in the Son of God shall not perish, but has everlasting life? There is no conditional clause at the end of that statement, such as, "but only if you don't celebrate Christmas."

I know many wonderful Christians, both those that do, and those that don't celebrate Christmas, and my conviction that they are true believers is not based on what holidays they celebrate, but rather on how they live their lives and the essence of Christ that exudes from them. To judge another's salvation on a legalistic detail serves only to divide the Body of Christ, and to make one group of people, or one individual, feel that they are somehow 'better' or more 'spiritual' than all the rest. That is what I call 'spiritual pride.' Nowhere to be found is the humility of Christ.....what a shame.