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Ask About Islam

KWED

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
stanberger said:
yes but at then end of the day Mecca was taken without a battle and immunity given to its occupants
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So if an invader turns up with a vastly superior army and the defenders surrender in order to avoid bloodshed, that's ok and the invasion is acceptable?

BTW, some Quraysh did fight the invading Muslims, but were hopelessly outnumbered.
 
S

stanberger

Active Member
joelr said:
plenty of barbaric scripture in Quran, hating on other religions, barbaric, no religious freedom, barbaric, eternal fire, barbaric, eternal fire just for religious beliefs, barbaric, killing people for disbelief, barbaric
  1. Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a
  1. Disbelievers will wear garments of fire, boiling fluid will be poured on their heads, their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: Taste the doom of burning. 22:19-22
    1. Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:17
  1. Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

    Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
    1. 2:191-2
      1. Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 4:56
      1. For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1
      1. Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72


      2. Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73


      3. Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80


      4. Disbelievers will be owners of hell-fire. 5:86
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jesus 'prince of peace ' ' attacked rabbis in temple with a whip made of chord. abrogated early peaceful verses with ' go buy swords kill my deniers ' crusaders inquistioneyrs conquistadors. kkk. took him up on it
 
KWED

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
stanberger said:
if the ancient folks back then came to see life in west/christendom today they would think us barbaric. men marrying men.
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So which do you think is the more civilised, accepting homosexuality or killing people for practicing it?

mothers killing 55 million babies etc
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News to me! When did this happen?
 
S

stanberger

Active Member
KWED said:
More disingenuousness.
The Quran claims infallibility for itself and its source.
Muhammad is revered as "the Best of Creation".
The fact that some muslims through the ages have understood that such claims are impractical and lead to problems is actually a vindication of Policy's argument. When people insist on implementing the Quran exactly as revealed, with no concession to a changing world, everyone looses their shjt!
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we see what happened to west/christendom as it changed its bible /n t. today men marry men. mothers have killed 55 million babies in abortions. 25k gun murders in u s. thats 550k murders in u s since 9/11. muslims should continue to stay close to word of god [quran]
 
KWED

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
stanberger said:
jesus 'prince of peace ' ' attacked rabbis in temple with a whip made of chord. abrogated early peaceful verses with ' go buy swords kill my deniers ' crusaders inquistioneyrs conquistadors. kkk. took him up on it
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I agree that the Bible is just as violent and intolerant as the Quran.
Did you have a point there?
 
S

stanberger

Active Member
KWED said:
Muhammad ordering people to be stoned to death for adultery is recorded in several sahih hadith. Those collections are an integral and authentic component of Islamic belief. Muhammad is "the best of creation" and the ultimate role model for all Muslims to aspire to. To claim that torturing people to death for having consensual adult sex is not part of Islam is simply false.
But I agree with you that it is absolutely barbaric - which calls Muhammad's character into question.

BTW, flogging people with 100 lashes for consensual, adult sex is in the Quran.
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again stoning not in quran it could not come from a loving god. Muhammad used it util the punishment came awn to him from quran 4 witnesses 100 lashes. good luck finding 4 witnesses. but is in bible for gays. apostates and adultery
 
S

stanberger

Active Member
KWED said:
So which do you think is the more civilised, accepting homosexuality or killing people for practicing it?

News to me! When did this happen?
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killing gays not in quran but is in bible [stone to death]. quran just says its a sin to stay away from
 
KWED

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
stanberger said:
we see what happened to west/christendom as it changed its bible /n t. today men marry men. mothers have killed 55 million babies in abortions. 25k gun murders in u s. thats 550k murders in u s since 9/11.
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Really not sure what your argument is here. Both the Christian and Muslim world have a history of violent intolerance and oppressive expansionism. In the modern world, Islamic states seem to be more violently intolerant that Christian ones, although there is still plenty of violent intolerance in some Christian countries.
However, the most peaceful, healthy, tolerant, safe countries tend to be secular liberal democracies. Go figure.

Also, how was the Bible "changed"? I keep hearing this claim from Muslims, but the oldest extant copies of the Bible contain essentially the same details as the current ones. No major changes.

muslims should continue to stay close to word of god [quran]
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Do you mean "what the Quran actually says" or "what I want the Quran to say"?
When Muslims stick strictly to Allah's word and Muhammad's example and reject any concept of modernisation, most people are appalled. As you said, stoning and flogging for consensual adult sex is barbaric, but it's what Allah and Muhammad would have wanted - which is an understandably tricky position for many Muslims.
 
KWED

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
stanberger said:
Dartmouth religious studies. 1871 violent verses in bible. 81 in quran ...so in your mind 1871=81 ?
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Where did I make any claim about numbers of verses? And how did you quantify the amount and type of violence in each verse?
Also bear in mind that the Bible contains about 10 times more words than the Quran, so yes, they contain similar proportions of violent verses (although that wasn't my point).

But anyway, it is good that you accept that the Quran contains many violent passages. Many Muslims deny it.
 
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Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
stanberger said:
if the ancient folks back then came to see life in west/christendom today they would think us barbaric. men marrying men.
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Why is gay marriage savagely cruel?

mothers killing 55 million babies etc
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Abortion does not kill babies, and strictly speaking it need not involve a mother either, only an expectant one. So if you want your arguments to be taken seriously, then you should try and understand that hyperbole and sophistry are not very compelling to those who don't share your position.
 
Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
stanberger said:
we see what happened to west/christendom as it changed its bible /n t. today men marry men. mothers have killed 55 million babies in abortions. 25k gun murders in u s. thats 550k murders in u s since 9/11. muslims should continue to stay close to word of god [quran]
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One more time then, why is gay marriage savagely cruel?

Also abortion doe not kill babies, and need not involve a mother.
 
WonderingWorrier

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
KWED said:
BTW, coming up with a complex and arcane explanation for why the sun orbits the earth, or dogs have six legs (for example) is not "genius". It is "delusional".
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I'm going to ask a third time.
Can you answer the question.

WonderingWorrier said:
Can you answer the question?
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This question.
WonderingWorrier said:
I have a question for you.
Are you able to understand that these words are at different levels of height?


Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream

The mountain is higher than the hill. The hill is higher than the valley.
The stream is higher than the river. The river is higher than the sea.

That is the most simple way of explaining that i can think of at the moment.
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Three different levels of height.
This is really simple stuff that I thought you might have the intelligence to comprehend as a starting point.
I can walk you through it step by step since you seem unable to keep up and it goes over your head.


As in the three classes of the Quran.
And ye shall be sorted out into three classes. 56:7



Do these verses sound delusional to you?

Do you think speaking to the valleys, hills, and the mountains is delusional?

Hear ye now what the Lord saith; Arise, contend thou before the mountains, and let the hills hear thy voice. Micah 6:1

Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen: Ezekiel 36:6



Do you think hearing the valleys, hills, and mountains all singing together delusional?

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Isaiah 55:12

The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm 65:13


Do you think the trees clapping their hands is delusional?

Do you think I am delusional?
 
Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
WonderingWorrier said:
This is really simple stuff that I thought you might have the intelligence to comprehend as a starting point.
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I have a question for you.
Are you able to understand that these words are at different levels of height?
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The things those words are describing are at different heights, I think you mean, the way you are wording your claims is simply bizarre, and pretty meaningless.
 
WonderingWorrier

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
Sheldon said:
The things those words are describing are at different heights, I think you mean, the way you are wording your claims is simply bizarre, and pretty meaningless.
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Yeah. I agree it is bizarre. Very bizarre.
But it is meaningful and not just crazy nonsense.


Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation? Habakkuk 3:8

The river is a river of peace:

O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: Isaiah 48:18



They are measurements.

Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? Isaiah 40:12


They are judgements.

But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High. Psalm 46:4



Its a starting point that we should be able to agree on that the words are at different heights.

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain

Then I can slowly introduce more words into the levels and you are welcome to show me any flaws in my logic.



Like the three levels of the corn, the oil, and the wine as an example.

And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22


As the valleys are covered with corn being in the same measurement position:

The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm 65:13

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Oil - Wine


As the rivers flow with oil being in the same measurement position:

Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 32:14

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Oil - Wine



And the mountains flow with wine being in the same measurement position:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. Amos 9:13

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Oil - Wine


Corn, oil, and wine are a repeat of the three measurements.

There are many repeats.



Just as spear, sword and bow, is another repeat of the measurements.

And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. Ezekiel 6:3


The sword of peace is the river of peace.

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Spear - Sword - Bow

To bring down the high, and to lift the low.
 
S

stanberger

Active Member
KWED said:
Sorry, but are you a Quranist? Or are you just dishonestly ignoring everything in the sunnah?
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hadiths teach physical aspects of islam. how. when to pray. fast ramadan and go to haj. today families teach their kids these things and 99 percent of muslims today do not have books of hadiths at home
 
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