How We Know

The Bible is True
The Bible is a collection of documents (primary source), written by some 40 individuals (some claim more than 50), over a period of 1600 years. Yet it is harmonious from the first dot of ink, to the last, having a message linked by one thread, running through from beginning to end.
Hence, the strongest evidence that the Bible is true, is it's internal evidence... which is then supported by external evidence - historical; scientific... etc.

Never mind the ridiculers, and those who lack understanding. The Bible is a product of a force greater than currently known to the scientific community. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21
Right. The examples...

Historical
One of the most prominent and historically significant Assyrian kings, Tiglath-Pileser is accepted to have written the Nimrud Tablet K.3751, also known as Kalhu Palace Summary Inscription 7, an inscription on a clay tablet dated c.733 BC. The tablet describes the first 17 years of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign, and contains the first known archeological reference to Judah.
It records that he received tribute from "Jehoahaz of Judah". Also identified in royal bullae belonging to Ahaz himself and his son Hezekiah - characters later discovered to have existed, and been associated with the events described, both in the Bible, and extra-Biblical sources.
What this means, is that we have both a primary and secondary source - The later supporting the former, confirming accuracy, and credibility.

Bear in mind, this is only one example of many.
How does Harry Potter compare?
Harry Potter is not written as a true life account, but as fiction.
In mid-1990, [Joanne K. Rowling] was on a train delayed by four hours from Manchester to London, when the characters Harry Potter, Ron Weasley, and Hermione Granger came plainly into her mind. Having no pen or paper allowed her to fully explore the characters and their story in her imagination before she reached her flat and began to write.

The Bible accounts are written as history, from actual historians and keepers of historical records.
The writers often wrote... "This is a history...", or "This is the history of..."
Take this one example ...
Luke 1:1-4 - Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

This honesty is evident throughout Luke's record.
(Luke 3:1, 2) 1 In the 15th year of the reign of Ti·beʹri·us Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Ju·deʹa, Herod was district ruler of Galʹi·lee, Philip his brother was district ruler of the country of It·u·raeʹa and Trach·o·niʹtis, and Ly·saʹni·as was district ruler of Ab·i·leʹne, 2 in the days of chief priest Anʹnas and of Caʹia·phas, God’s declaration came to John the son of Zech·a·riʹah in the wilderness.

These detailed historical accounts are confirmed by discoveries made centuries after.
Acts 19:23-28, 33-38


The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus was situated in the ancient city of Ephesus, which can be found near Selçuk, a town in modern Turkey.
The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus was destroyed and rebuilt at least three times, notably damaged by a flood and by fire, and was finally torched by the Goths in 268 AD and was probably not fully rebuilt after that.

These facts are as grand as the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus
The Bible writers were familiar with the facts, because they were there, and unlike Harry Potter, no fictional characters have been found mixed in with the facts.
To the contrary, those characters that have been claimed by critics to be fictional, have been discovered to be factual, to the dismay of the critic, and the credit of the authors.
City of David Top Finds #1: King Hezekiah's Royal Seal
City of David Top Finds #8: House of David Inscription

The writers of the Bible never said that they made up characters and events in order to make money.
Their Candor is seen throughout. (More on that later)
Coming up too, is the Scientific evidence of the accuracy of the Bible.
Let's discuss what we have so far.
@AppieB Welcome.

By counting the hits and ignoring the misses.

In my opinion.

Artemis of the Ephesians was not the same as the Artemis of Greek mythology. From the NWT Study Bible notes on Acts 19:24:

Artemis: Artemis of Ephesus was a fertility goddess who was worshipped in cities throughout Asia Minor. (Ac 19:27) Statues of Artemis were adorned with what have variously been identified as multiple breasts, eggs, and the testicles of sacrificed bulls. The mummylike lower half of her body was decorated with various symbols and animals. Though there was a Greek virgin goddess of hunting known as Artemis, the Artemis of Ephesus has little in common with the Greek deity of classical mythology. The Roman name for Artemis was Diana.

Eyes to See said:

Artemis of the Ephesians was not the same as the Artemis of Greek mythology. From the NWT Study Bible notes on Acts 19:24:

Artemis: Artemis of Ephesus was a fertility goddess who was worshipped in cities throughout Asia Minor. (Ac 19:27) Statues of Artemis were adorned with what have variously been identified as multiple breasts, eggs, and the testicles of sacrificed bulls. The mummylike lower half of her body was decorated with various symbols and animals. Though there was a Greek virgin goddess of hunting known as Artemis, the Artemis of Ephesus has little in common with the Greek deity of classical mythology. The Roman name for Artemis was Diana.

View attachment 61253

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Thanks Eyes. I'll make that adjustment.

danieldemol said:

By counting the hits and ignoring the misses.

In my opinion.

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The "misses" are usually in the minds of skeptics, remember, until they become hits, then those "misses" dissolve, and the critics look for another imagined miss. ...and the cycle repeats itself.
When will it end, in your opinion?

nPeace said:

When will it end, in your opinion?

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I'd imagine counting the hits and ignoring the misses will continue for as long as the human race, or at the least as long as there are Bible believers.

In my opinion

danieldemol said:

I'd imagine counting the hits and ignoring the misses will continue for as long as the human race, or at the least as long as there are Bible believers.

In my opinion

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There you go. You imagine. Thanks.
There are no misses. That's all in the imagination.
Why not name one, let's look at it, or better yet, deny the truthfulness of the OP with something more than what could be just an endless fruitless argument with no substance.

nPeace said:

There you go. You imagine. Thanks.
There are no misses. That's all in the imagination.
Why not name one, let's look at it, or better yet, deny the truthfulness of the OP with something more than what could be just an endless fruitless argument with no substance.

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Judging by experience it would be a fruitless argument *with* substance.

Be honest, is there any fact or piece of information for which you would be prepared to sacrifice your peers the Jehovah's Witnesses?

In my opinion.

danieldemol said:

Judging by experience it would be a fruitless argument *with* substance..

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Your experience with Jehovah's Witnesses - the people on earth whom no one can contend with, where the Bible is concerned?
Imagine how Stephen's challengers felt. You are not alone.
(Acts 6:10) But they could not hold their own against the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking.

So what did they resort to...
(Acts 6:11) Then they secretly persuaded men to say: “We have heard him speaking blasphemous things against Moses and God.”

danieldemol said:

Be honest, is there any fact or piece of information for which you would be prepared to sacrifice your peers the Jehovah's Witnesses?

In my opinion.

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I like how you guys load your questions. Why do you do that?

The definition gives the answer this way...
Loaded Question
A loaded question is a form of complex question that contains a controversial assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt ). Such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda. The traditional example is the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?

So why don't you be honest and let us know if what you call a fact could be any opinion, that you believe, and feel others should believe, otherwise they are wrong.

As far as I know, there are no facts Jehovah's Witnesses disagree with.
So maybe unload the question and try again.
That would demonstrate that you honestly are not influenced by any bias.

Or, you could also present the facts, but here is the thing, this is how many posts now, and the thread is not about Jehovah's Witnesses, but you are trying to make it about them.
If you are actually helpless in denying the facts in the OP, no need to derail it, because I won't be helping you with that.

My experience is that people, when they can't deny facts, they build strawman, to try to have something they think they can knock down.
I'm awai4ing your facts that dispute the OP.
That's what this is about. Not Jehovah's Witnesses.
I want to discuss each piece of evidence for how we know... first of all, the Bible is true.
Then the other evidence people keep asking for, so if you have any interest there, let's get it on.
Otherwise ...

nPeace said:

Your experience with Jehovah's Witnesses - the people on earth whom no one can contend with, where the Bible is concerned?
Imagine how Stephen's challengers felt. You are not alone.
(Acts 6:10) But they could not hold their own against the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking.

So what did they resort to...
(Acts 6:11) Then they secretly persuaded men to say: “We have heard him speaking blasphemous things against Moses and God.”


I like how you guys load your questions. Why do you do that?

The definition gives the answer this way...
Loaded Question
A loaded question is a form of complex question that contains a controversial assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt ). Such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda. The traditional example is the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?

So why don't you be honest and let us know if what you call a fact could be any opinion, that you believe, and feel others should believe, otherwise they are wrong.

As far as I know, there are no facts Jehovah's Witnesses disagree with.
So maybe unload the question and try again.
That would demonstrate that you honestly are not influenced by any bias.

Or, you could also present the facts, but here is the thing, this is how many posts now, and the thread is not about Jehovah's Witnesses, but you are trying to make it about them.
If you are actually helpless in denying the facts in the OP, no need to derail it, because I won't be helping you with that.

My experience is that people, when they can't deny facts, they build strawman, to try to have something they think they can knock down.
I'm awai4ing your facts that dispute the OP.
That's what this is about. Not Jehovah's Witnesses.
I want to discuss each piece of evidence for how we know... first of all, the Bible is true.
Then the other evidence people keep asking for, so if you have any interest there, let's get it on.
Otherwise ...

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It wasn't loaded, the question didn't assume there was a fact or piece of information you were denying, it was hypothetically asking if that piece of information existed, are you prepared to sacrifice your JW family, friends or other JW peers for it?

The only strawman here was you saying something irrelevant about blasphemy.

In my opinion.

danieldemol said:

It wasn't loaded, the question didn't assume there was a fact or piece of information you were denying, it was hypothetically asking if that piece of information existed, are you prepared to sacrifice your JW family, friends or other JW peers for it?

The only strawman here was you saying something irrelevant about blasphemy.

In my opinion.

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Ha ha. Then I suggest you do not understand what a loaded question is.
Let me turn the tables.
Are you willing to sacrifice your family, or values for piece of information?

nPeace said:

Ha ha. Then I suggest you do not understand what a loaded question is.
Let me turn the tables.
Are you willing to sacrifice your family, or values for piece of information?

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I dont need to because they haven't and won't shun me for apostasy (which I have anyhow already comitted).
The situation would be very different for you.
In my opinion.

danieldemol said:

I dont need to because they haven't and won't shun me for apostasy (which I have anyhow already comitted).
The situation would be very different for you.
In my opinion.

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See what I mean.
(Acts 6:10, 11)
10 But they could not hold their own against the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking.
11 Then they secretly persuaded men to say: “We have heard him speaking blasphemous things against Moses and God.”

LOL. Bye Bye.

nPeace said:

See what I mean.

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As in see what you mean about strawmen? Sure, see below;

(Acts 6:10, 11)
10 But they could not hold their own against the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking.
11 Then they secretly persuaded men to say: “We have heard him speaking blasphemous things against Moses and God.”

Click to expand...

Bye Bye.

Click to expand...

Safe travels

In my opinion.

nPeace said:

The Bible is True
The Bible is a collection of documents (primary source), written by some 40 individuals (some claim more than 50), over a period of 1600 years. Yet it is harmonious from the first dot of ink, to the last, having a message linked by one thread, running through from beginning to end.
Hence, the strongest evidence that the Bible is true, is it's internal evidence... which is then supported by external evidence - historical; scientific... etc.

Never mind the ridiculers, and those who lack understanding. The Bible is a product of a force greater than currently known to the scientific community. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21
Right. The examples...

Historical
One of the most prominent and historically significant Assyrian kings, Tiglath-Pileser is accepted to have written the Nimrud Tablet K.3751, also known as Kalhu Palace Summary Inscription 7, an inscription on a clay tablet dated c.733 BC. The tablet describes the first 17 years of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign, and contains the first known archeological reference to Judah.
It records that he received tribute from "Jehoahaz of Judah". Also identified in royal bullae belonging to Ahaz himself and his son Hezekiah - characters later discovered to have existed, and been associated with the events described, both in the Bible, and extra-Biblical sources.
What this means, is that we have both a primary and secondary source - The later supporting the former, confirming accuracy, and credibility.

Click to expand...

Yes some things in the OT were real places and and real Kings. Does it confirm the stories are true? Does it confirm the supernatural aspects of the stories true? No. Hindu scripture also contains long bloodlines of Kings and real locations. The Puranas give vast details about Kings and dynasties.
Krishna is still fiction.
Besides that Genesis for one is known to be a re-working of Mesopotamian creation/flood myths the archaeology of the Bible does not support a literal reading. It also gets some HISTORICAL FACTS AND PLACES WRONG or greatly enlarges them.

Bible Archaeologist William Dever:

"The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people."

The Patriarchs:
"One of the first efforts of biblical archeology in the last century was to prove the historicity of the patriarchs, to locate them in a particular period in the archeological history. Today I think most archeologists would argue that there is no direct archeological proof that Abraham, for instance, ever lived."
"Generally, Moses is seen as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE."
Exodus:
We have no direct archeological evidence. "Moses" is an Egyptian name. Some of the other names in the narratives are Egyptian, and there are genuine Egyptian elements. But no one has found a text or an artifact in Egypt itself or even in the Sinai that has any direct connection.
No Egyptian text mentions the Israelites except the famous inscription of Merneptah dated to about 1206 B.C.E. But those Israelites were in Canaan; they are not in Egypt, and nothing is said about them escaping from Egypt.
Israelites not from Egypt:
"So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically."

Joshua's conquest not historical as written
If the Bible's story of Joshua's conquest isn't entirely historic, what is its meaning?
Why was it told? Well, it was told because there were probably armed conflicts here and there, and these become a part of the story glorifying the career of Joshua, commander in chief of the Israelite forces. I suspect that there is a historical kernel,

Was Soloman larger than life as depicted in the Bible?
The Bible describes it as a glorious kingdom stretching from Egypt to Mesopotamia. Does archeology back up these descriptions?
The stories of Solomon are larger than life. According to the stories, Solomon imported 100,000 workers from what is now Lebanon. Well, the whole population of Israel probably wasn't 100,000 in the 10th century. Everything Solomon touched turned to gold. In the minds of the biblical writers, of course, David and Solomon are ideal kings chosen by Yahweh. So they glorify them.
But I think most archeologists today would argue that the United Monarchy was not much more than a kind of hill-country chiefdom. It was very small-scale.

Yahweh had a wife, the theology was clearly being made up as they went
One of the astonishing things is your discovery of Yahweh's connection to Asherah. Tell us about that.
In 1968, I discovered an inscription in a cemetery west of Hebron, in the hill country, at the site of Khirbet el-Qôm, a Hebrew inscription of the 8th century B.C.E. It gives the name of the deceased, and it says "blessed may he be by Yahweh"—that's good biblical Hebrew—but it says "by Yahweh and his Asherah."

Asherah is the name of the old Canaanite Mother Goddess, the consort of El, the principal deity of the Canaanite pantheon. So why is a Hebrew inscription mentioning Yahweh in connection with the Canaanite Mother Goddess? Well, in popular religion they were a pair.
The Israelite prophets and reformers denounce the Mother Goddess and all the other gods and goddesses of Canaan. But I think Asherah was widely venerated in ancient Israel. If you look at Second Kings 23, which describes the reforms of King Josiah in the late 7th century, he talks about purging the Temple of all the cult paraphernalia of Asherah. So the so-called folk religion even penetrated the Temple in Jerusalem.

Is there other evidence linking Asherah to Yahweh?
In the 1970s, Israeli archeologists digging in Kuntillet Ajrud in the Sinai found a little desert fort of the same period, and lo and behold, we have "Yahweh and Asherah" all over the place in the Hebrew inscriptions.
Are there any images of Asherah?
For a hundred years now we have known of little terracotta female figurines. They show a nude female; the sexual organs are not represented but the breasts are. They are found in tombs, they are found in households, they are found everywhere. There are thousands of them. They date all the way from the 10th century to the early 6th century.

They have long been connected with one goddess or another, but many scholars are still hesitant to come to a conclusion. I think they are representations of Asherah, so I call them Asherah figurines.

There aren't such representations of Yahweh, are there?
No. Now, why is it that you could model the female deity but not the male deity? Well, I think the First and Second Commandments by now were taken pretty seriously. You just don't portray Yahweh, the male deity, but the Mother Goddess is okay. But his consort is probably a lesser deity.

We found molds for making Asherah figurines, mass-producing them, in village shrines. So probably almost everybody had one of these figurines, and they surely have something to do with fertility. They were no doubt used to pray for conceiving a child and bearing the child safely and nursing it. It's interesting to me that the Israelite and Judean ones are rather more modest than the Canaanite ones, which are right in your face. The Israelite and Judean ones mostly show a nursing mother.

nPeace said:

Bear in mind, this is only one example of many.
How does Harry Potter compare?
Harry Potter is not written as a true life account, but as fiction.
In mid-1990, [Joanne K. Rowling] was on a train delayed by four hours from Manchester to London, when the characters Harry Potter, Ron Weasley, and Hermione Granger came plainly into her mind. Having no pen or paper allowed her to fully explore the characters and their story in her imagination before she reached her flat and began to write.

Click to expand...

Genesis is literally reworked flood and creation myths and is written similar. Not written as history.

The source Gospel Mark is written as fiction, uses fictive literary devices - ring structure, triadic inversions and even tells the reader the story is a parable by explaining the lead character teaches in parables. It also uses material from Paul, Kings, Psalms and reworks it as a Jesus story. This is all in the Greek style of religious fiction taught at the time.
The Jesus narrative uses the common mythic story devices more than almost all other myths. One aspect of fiction is the mythotype scale, this can be applied to Mark to show this story was not historical but a literary creation by highly trained Greek schooled writers of fiction.

Lord Raglan, in 1936, developed a 22-point myth-ritualist Hero archetype to account for common patterns across Indo-European cultures for Hero traditions, following myth-ritualists like James Frazer and S. H. Hooke:[2]

1. Mother is a royal virgin
2. Father is a king
3. Father often a near relative to mother
4. Unusual conception
5. Hero reputed to be son of god
6. Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
7. Hero spirited away as a child
8. Reared by foster parents in a far country
9. No details of childhood
10. Returns or goes to future kingdom
11. Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
12. Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
13. Becomes king
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully
15. He prescribes laws
16. Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
17. Driven from throne and city
18. Meets with mysterious death
19. Often at the top of a hill
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him
21. His body is not buried
22. Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

When Raglan's 22 point outline is used, a Hero's tradition is considered more likely to be mythical the more of these traits they hold (a point is added per trait). Raglan himself scored the following Heroes: Oedipus (21 or 22 points), Theseus (20 points), Jesus (20 points), Romulus (18 points), Heracles (17 points), Perseus (18 points), Jason (15 points), Bellerophon (16 points), Pelops (13 points), Dionysos (19 points), Apollo (11 points), Zeus (15 points), Joseph (12 points), Moses (20 points), Elijah (9 points), Watu Gunung (18 points), Nyikang (14 points), Sigurd (11 points), Llew Llawgyffes (17 points), King Arthur (19 points), Robin Hood (13 points), and Alexander the Great (7 points).[2]

These myths existed in ancient Greek writings and the Gospels, written in Greek, are highly influenced by Greek culture, style and story.
A separate study of Hellenism can show every single change Judaism went through to become Christianity. All elements of the Gospels theology are Hellenistic updates that were introduced during the Greek occupation in 1 B.C.
Some elements - baptism, savior demigods, heaven, fallen souls that can return to heaven, eucharist, cosmopolitan (all races), national God becomes supreme God, the word becomes flesh, ...

nPeace said:

The Bible accounts are written as history, from actual historians and keepers of historical records.
The writers often wrote... "This is a history...", or "This is the history of..."
Take this one example ...
Luke 1:1-4 - Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

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Luke claims to be a historian but isn't. He doesn't give sources, doesn't explain things as Josephus would and is not considered a historian in the field.
Scholarship is almost 100% that Luke is written by the same author as Acts and is not history but is sourcing earlier Gospels, Kings as well as common shipwreck fiction like the Odyssey. Many peer-reviewed papers and books have demonstrated this.
"Most modern scholars agree that the main sources used for Luke were (a) the Gospel of Mark, (b) a hypothetical sayings collection called the Q source, and (c) material found in no other gospels, often referred to as the L (for Luke) source.[5] The author is anonymous;[6]"
Gospel of Luke - Wikipedia



"
For starters, The Gospel According to Luke is the first Gospel to superficially represent itself as history. Unlike the other Gospel authors, Luke actually does write more like a historian, where he adds superficial historical details to form a local color, and even attempts to date some of the events contained therein. He even includes a preface (although rather vague) explaining what his authorial intentions are. Unfortunately, after a close examination of what he wrote, we can see that he was no better than Mark or Matthew, and in fact fabricates numerous details throughout his Gospel. One interesting element that tips us off is the fact that Luke creates a resurrection narrative that is thoroughly designed to answer the skeptics of Matthew’s account, employing a tactic that “requires” his own story to be true. However, since no other Gospel (nor Paul for that matter) ever mentions the odd and quite convenient details that suddenly make their first appearance in Luke, we can be fairly certain that it is indeed a fabrication.

Here is one example of Luke using Kings:
Adding to these already obvious signs of fiction, is the fact that this story is simply a rewrite of the exact same legend told of Elijah in 1 Kings. Here are some of the parallels between the two:

• Luke — “It happened afterwards…” (7.11)
• 1 Kings — “It happened after this…” (17.17)

• 1 Kings — At the gate of Sarepta, Elijah meets a widow. (17.10)
• Luke — At the gate of Nain, Jesus meets a widow. (7.11-12)

• 1 Kings — Another widow’s son was dead (17.17)
• Luke — This widow’s son was dead (7.12)

• 1 Kings — That widow expresses a sense of her unworthiness on account of sin. (17.18)
• Luke — A centurion (whose “boy” Jesus had just saved from death) had just expressed a sense of his unworthiness on account of sin. (7.6)

• 1 Kings — Elijah compassionately bears her son up the stairs and asks “the Lord” why he was allowed to die. (17.13-14)
• Luke — “The Lord” feels compassion for her and touches her son’s bier, and the bearers stand still. (7.13-14)

• 1 Kings — Elijah prays to the Lord for the son’s return to life. (17.21)
• Luke — “The Lord” commands the boy to rise. (7.14)

• 1 Kings — The boy comes to life and cries out. (17.22)
• Luke — “And he who was dead sat up and began to speak” (7.15)

• 1 Kings — “And he gave him to his mother” (17.23)
• Luke — “And he gave him to his mother” (17.15)

• 1 Kings — The widow recognizes Elijah is a man of God and that “the word” he speaks is the truth. (17.24)
• Luke — The people recognize Jesus as a great prophet of God and “the word” of this truth spreads everywhere. (7.16-17)

Of the material that Luke adds to that found in Mark and Matthew, there is quite a bit that is demonstrably fabricated rewritten versions of the Elijah-Elisha narrative in 1 and 2 Kings, placing Jesus within them as the central character and changing the setting to 1st century Roman Palestine. Sometimes Luke directly parallels those stories and other times he inverts them, but there are too many coincidences for this to have plausibly arisen by chance. Here’s a list of some examples:

Luke 1.5-17 reverses 1 Kings 16.29-17.1

Luke 7.1-10 transforms 1 Kings 17.1-6

Luke 7.11-17 transforms 1 Kings 17.17-24

Luke 7.18-25 transforms 1 Kings 22



Luke 7.36-50 plays on 2 Kings 4.1-37

Luke 8.1-3 plays on 1 Kings 18

Luke 9.51-56 transforms 2 Kings 1.1-2.6

Luke 9.57-62 transforms 1 Kings 19

Luke 10.1-20 transforms 2 Kings 2.16-3.27

Luke 22-24 adapts elements from 2 Kings 2.7-15

nPeace said:

The Bible is True
The Bible is a collection of documents (primary source), written by some 40 individuals (some claim more than 50), over a period of 1600 years. Yet it is harmonious from the first dot of ink, to the last, having a message linked by one thread, running through from beginning to end.
Hence, the strongest evidence that the Bible is true, is it's internal evidence... which is then supported by external evidence - historical; scientific... etc.

Never mind the ridiculers, and those who lack understanding. The Bible is a product of a force greater than currently known to the scientific community. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21
Right. The examples...

Historical
One of the most prominent and historically significant Assyrian kings, Tiglath-Pileser is accepted to have written the Nimrud Tablet K.3751, also known as Kalhu Palace Summary Inscription 7, an inscription on a clay tablet dated c.733 BC. The tablet describes the first 17 years of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign, and contains the first known archeological reference to Judah.
It records that he received tribute from "Jehoahaz of Judah". Also identified in royal bullae belonging to Ahaz himself and his son Hezekiah - characters later discovered to have existed, and been associated with the events described, both in the Bible, and extra-Biblical sources.
What this means, is that we have both a primary and secondary source - The later supporting the former, confirming accuracy, and credibility.

Bear in mind, this is only one example of many.
How does Harry Potter compare?
Harry Potter is not written as a true life account, but as fiction.
In mid-1990, [Joanne K. Rowling] was on a train delayed by four hours from Manchester to London, when the characters Harry Potter, Ron Weasley, and Hermione Granger came plainly into her mind. Having no pen or paper allowed her to fully explore the characters and their story in her imagination before she reached her flat and began to write.

The Bible accounts are written as history, from actual historians and keepers of historical records.
The writers often wrote... "This is a history...", or "This is the history of..."
Take this one example ...
Luke 1:1-4 - Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

This honesty is evident throughout Luke's record.
(Luke 3:1, 2) 1 In the 15th year of the reign of Ti·beʹri·us Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Ju·deʹa, Herod was district ruler of Galʹi·lee, Philip his brother was district ruler of the country of It·u·raeʹa and Trach·o·niʹtis, and Ly·saʹni·as was district ruler of Ab·i·leʹne, 2 in the days of chief priest Anʹnas and of Caʹia·phas, God’s declaration came to John the son of Zech·a·riʹah in the wilderness.

These detailed historical accounts are confirmed by discoveries made centuries after.
Acts 19:23-28, 33-38

Spoiler: Excerpt

23 At that time quite a disturbance arose concerning The Way. 24 For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought considerable profit to the craftsmen. 25 He gathered them and others who worked at such things and said: “Men, you well know that from this business comes our prosperity. 26 Now you see and hear how, not only in Ephesus but in nearly all the province of Asia, this Paul has persuaded a considerable crowd and turned them to another opinion, saying that the gods made by hands are not really gods. 27 Moreover, the danger exists not only that this business of ours will come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be viewed as nothing, and she who is worshipped in the whole province of Asia and the inhabited earth will be deprived of her magnificence.” 28 Hearing this and becoming full of anger, the men began crying out: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”
33 So they brought Alexander out of the crowd, the Jews shoving him forward, and Alexander motioned with his hand and wanted to make his defense to the people. 34 But when they recognized that he was a Jew, they all started shouting in unison for about two hours: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” 35 When the city recorder had finally quieted the crowd, he said: “Men of Ephesus, who really is there among men who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is the temple keeper of the great Artemis and of the image that fell from heaven? 36 Since these things are indisputable, you should keep calm and not act rashly. 37 For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of our goddess. 38 So if Demetrius and the craftsmen with him do have a case against someone, court days are held and there are proconsuls; let them bring charges against one another.

The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus was situated in the ancient city of Ephesus, which can be found near Selçuk, a town in modern Turkey.
The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus was destroyed and rebuilt at least three times, notably damaged by a flood and by fire, and was finally torched by the Goths in 268 AD and was probably not fully rebuilt after that.

These facts are as grand as the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus
The Bible writers were familiar with the facts, because they were there, and unlike Harry Potter, no fictional characters have been found mixed in with the facts.
To the contrary, those characters that have been claimed by critics to be fictional, have been discovered to be factual, to the dismay of the critic, and the credit of the authors.
City of David Top Finds #1: King Hezekiah's Royal Seal
City of David Top Finds #8: House of David Inscription

The writers of the Bible never said that they made up characters and events in order to make money.

I am telling the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit
- Paul (Romans 9:1)​

Their Candor is seen throughout. (More on that later)
Coming up too, is the Scientific evidence of the accuracy of the Bible.
Let's discuss what we have so far.
@AppieB Welcome.

Click to expand...

I'd like to make just a few statements about the Bible.

1. The Bible is a collection of writings of many genres: history, myth, legend, song, proverbs, etc. To properly interpret the Bible, one of the things you have to do is identify the genre if when you are reading. For example, when the Bible says the rivers clap their hands, you do not take it literally, because rivers do not have hands.

2. The Bible makes errors of history and science. It is not a perfect book. For example, the Bible says that a rabbit chews its cud. This is not true. Rabbits chew on their turds.

3. The Bible has some problems with ethics in that it treats slavery and misogyny as okay. However, it's overriding principle is "Love your neighbor as yourself," which corrects this problem. Therefore one can indeed improve one's virtue by studying the Bible, but it is best to simply be honest about the problems.

4. The Bible is not one book, but a collection of books by many different authors, who don't always agree with each other. For example, Matthew Mark and Luke have Jesus crucified on Passover (the Last Supper being a Passover Seder) whereas John has Jesus crucified on the Day of Preparation for Passover, when the lambs are sacrificed, because it is his theology that Jesus is the Passover Sacrifice.

5. While the Tanakh, or what Christians call the Old Testament, can stand on its own, the New Testament requires the existence of the Tanakh (OT). Thus you do have Jews who do just fine without the New Testament.

6. There is a significant change of message between the Tanakh (OT) and the New Testament. The Tanakh's main message is "Obey God." The New Testament's main message is "believe these things." We could have a whole thread on this topic.

7. Despite all these problems, the error, the contradictions, the moral difficulties... One can still read the Bible and become a more ethical person and draw closer to God. We can say that God does indeed speak through the Bible. For Jews in particular, the Tanakh remains our legacy -- the Torah is what binds the Jewish people together; it tells us who we are and how we should live.

nPeace said:

The Bible is True
The Bible is a collection of documents (primary source), written by some 40 individuals (some claim more than 50), over a period of 1600 years. Yet it is harmonious from the first dot of ink, to the last, having a message linked by one thread, running through from beginning to end.
Hence, the strongest evidence that the Bible is true, is it's internal evidence... which is then supported by external evidence - historical; scientific... etc.

Never mind the ridiculers, and those who lack understanding. The Bible is a product of a force greater than currently known to the scientific community. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21
Right. The examples...

Historical
One of the most prominent and historically significant Assyrian kings, Tiglath-Pileser is accepted to have written the Nimrud Tablet K.3751, also known as Kalhu Palace Summary Inscription 7, an inscription on a clay tablet dated c.733 BC. The tablet describes the first 17 years of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign, and contains the first known archeological reference to Judah.
It records that he received tribute from "Jehoahaz of Judah". Also identified in royal bullae belonging to Ahaz himself and his son Hezekiah - characters later discovered to have existed, and been associated with the events described, both in the Bible, and extra-Biblical sources.
What this means, is that we have both a primary and secondary source - The later supporting the former, confirming accuracy, and credibility.

Bear in mind, this is only one example of many.
How does Harry Potter compare?
Harry Potter is not written as a true life account, but as fiction.
In mid-1990, [Joanne K. Rowling] was on a train delayed by four hours from Manchester to London, when the characters Harry Potter, Ron Weasley, and Hermione Granger came plainly into her mind. Having no pen or paper allowed her to fully explore the characters and their story in her imagination before she reached her flat and began to write.

The Bible accounts are written as history, from actual historians and keepers of historical records.
The writers often wrote... "This is a history...", or "This is the history of..."
Take this one example ...
Luke 1:1-4 - Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

This honesty is evident throughout Luke's record.
(Luke 3:1, 2) 1 In the 15th year of the reign of Ti·beʹri·us Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Ju·deʹa, Herod was district ruler of Galʹi·lee, Philip his brother was district ruler of the country of It·u·raeʹa and Trach·o·niʹtis, and Ly·saʹni·as was district ruler of Ab·i·leʹne, 2 in the days of chief priest Anʹnas and of Caʹia·phas, God’s declaration came to John the son of Zech·a·riʹah in the wilderness.

These detailed historical accounts are confirmed by discoveries made centuries after.
Acts 19:23-28, 33-38

Spoiler: Excerpt

23 At that time quite a disturbance arose concerning The Way. 24 For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought considerable profit to the craftsmen. 25 He gathered them and others who worked at such things and said: “Men, you well know that from this business comes our prosperity. 26 Now you see and hear how, not only in Ephesus but in nearly all the province of Asia, this Paul has persuaded a considerable crowd and turned them to another opinion, saying that the gods made by hands are not really gods. 27 Moreover, the danger exists not only that this business of ours will come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be viewed as nothing, and she who is worshipped in the whole province of Asia and the inhabited earth will be deprived of her magnificence.” 28 Hearing this and becoming full of anger, the men began crying out: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”
33 So they brought Alexander out of the crowd, the Jews shoving him forward, and Alexander motioned with his hand and wanted to make his defense to the people. 34 But when they recognized that he was a Jew, they all started shouting in unison for about two hours: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” 35 When the city recorder had finally quieted the crowd, he said: “Men of Ephesus, who really is there among men who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is the temple keeper of the great Artemis and of the image that fell from heaven? 36 Since these things are indisputable, you should keep calm and not act rashly. 37 For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of our goddess. 38 So if Demetrius and the craftsmen with him do have a case against someone, court days are held and there are proconsuls; let them bring charges against one another.

The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus was situated in the ancient city of Ephesus, which can be found near Selçuk, a town in modern Turkey.
The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus was destroyed and rebuilt at least three times, notably damaged by a flood and by fire, and was finally torched by the Goths in 268 AD and was probably not fully rebuilt after that.

These facts are as grand as the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus
The Bible writers were familiar with the facts, because they were there, and unlike Harry Potter, no fictional characters have been found mixed in with the facts.
To the contrary, those characters that have been claimed by critics to be fictional, have been discovered to be factual, to the dismay of the critic, and the credit of the authors.
City of David Top Finds #1: King Hezekiah's Royal Seal
City of David Top Finds #8: House of David Inscription

The writers of the Bible never said that they made up characters and events in order to make money.

I am telling the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit
- Paul (Romans 9:1)​

Their Candor is seen throughout. (More on that later)
Coming up too, is the Scientific evidence of the accuracy of the Bible.
Let's discuss what we have so far.
@AppieB Welcome.

Click to expand...

It's easy to be 'harmonious' when one writes and corrects what someone wrote beforehand.

Even then, it still isn't harmonious to this day. Lol.

nPeace said:

The Bible is True

Click to expand...

In the Genesis creation myth, it claims the earth existed with vegetations, before the sun, this is demonstrably and objectively false, the best you can say for the bible is that it contains some things that are true, none of it is objective evidence for a deity, or anything supernatural.

Also harry Potter was intended as a work of fiction yes, but since no one has denied this as far as I am aware it's a rather bizarre straw man to open with. The intent, imagined or otherwise, of an author, tells us nothing about the validity of any claims they make, and FYI the Spider Man movie has true facts in it, this doesn't make Spider Man real.

Thanks for this post.
I hope you don't mind me chopping up your post into small chunks. I'm on a go-slow... one step at a time.
I'll be covering all, no worries.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I'd like to make just a few statements about the Bible.

1. The Bible is a collection of writings of many genres: history, myth, legend, song, proverbs, etc. To properly interpret the Bible, one of the things you have to do is identify the genre if when you are reading. For example, when the Bible says the rivers clap their hands, you do not take it literally, because rivers do not have hands.

Click to expand...

Okay. So you agree with the historical. Cool.

You said history, myth, legend, song, proverbs, etc.
Since you claim there is myth, please identify the myth, and tell us how you know it is myth, and not symbolism, or other, which is one of those "genre" used throughout the Bible.

e.g.
Daniel 4, 7
Revelation 12, 17
...to mention just 1%.