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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Do you think this story is true? Or an allegory?
This story is really not good for the Creator literally. Adam "sinned" trying to get knowledge, so without knowledge Adam couldn't;t know consequences. So it was a set up by God for A&E to fail. If God REALLY wanted these two to obey it would have created them with adequate wisdom and discipline to obey the rules. God didn't do this. It created them easily tempted and gullible. Further God sent the serpent to temp them directly knowing A&E were not capable of resisting.
Just as God created, right?
Does it matter? Since the whole creation of Eden and the sabotage of A&E we cannot really trust anything this God does. Plus, if this Creator did all this doing the best it can do it's sort of a screw up. If it wanted to create A&E to be obedient and create a paradise, well the God failed. With sin so prevalent, as per the design, the God then had to flood the planet to get rid of sin, well, that down;t fix a damn thing because sin kept coming back. So all those people and animals killed at the flood event were needlessly killed. Horribly. So then to fix sin again it impregnates a woman (rape?) to create a child that it then sacrifices to itself to pay for the sins of mankind? What a Rube Goldberg design. Good couldn't just use magic?
Christians really can't argue from a literalist POV. Using symbolism and metaphor is the only way.
BTW, killing Jesus dint fix much. People still sin like it's going out of style, and many of these folks re Christians. The irony festival.

If you could please read Genesis 2:17 you will find Adam had knowledge (was educated) about the consequences.
The Tree of Life was good (eternal life on Earth) the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad (according to Genesis 2:17 the bad/evil was: death aka loss of life forever )
Adam was capable of resisting but Adam chose to listen to Eve over God.

Sinner Satan sent himself - James 1:13-15

Yes, still Not fixed. We are still in the last days of badness here on Earth - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
Coupled with this is that we are at the final international phase of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Thus, we are nearing the ' final signal ' found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security...." which will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
This is when Jesus, as King of God's Kingdom, will take the action of Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
Then, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among person's of goodwill.
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and undo all the damage Satan and Adam caused.
Come and being ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24
Earth and its people will be happy and healthy as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
If you could please read Genesis 2:17 you will find Adam had knowledge (was educated) about the consequences.
The Tree of Life was good (eternal life on Earth) the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad (according to Genesis 2:17 the bad/evil was: death aka loss of life forever )
Adam was capable of resisting but Adam chose to listen to Eve over God.

Sinner Satan sent himself - James 1:13-15

Yes, still Not fixed. We are still in the last days of badness here on Earth - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
Coupled with this is that we are at the final international phase of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Thus, we are nearing the ' final signal ' found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security...." which will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
This is when Jesus, as King of God's Kingdom, will take the action of Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
Then, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among person's of goodwill.
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and undo all the damage Satan and Adam caused.
Come and being ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24
Earth and its people will be happy and healthy as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
You're not taking all this literally, are you?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Seems as if Jesus is Not given credit for what Revelation says at Revelation 1:1 ' A revelation by -> Jesus Christ......'
So, the answer is yes, Jesus does mention the four horseman at Revelation 6:2 to Revelation 6:8. (1st 4 of 7 seals )
Since Revelation is written in very-vivid word pictures it does Not name names but what the riders accomplish or not accomplish.
Sorry, Jesus never claimed to have written/authored Revelation. Right?
I get the following from Wikipedia about four horsemen of Atheism:

During "The God Debate" in 2010 featuring Christopher Hitchens versus Dinesh D'Souza, the men were collectively referred to as the "Four Horsemen of the Non-Apocalypse", an allusion to the biblical Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse from the Book of Revelation.
New Atheism - Wikipedia
Right?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
@URAVIP2ME answered, but I just want to point out - you are the second person that appears to have missed it - the OP refers to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
One may like to read my post #183 , please.
I consider Western Atheism a flip side of the Pauline-Christianity or a denomination of the Pauline-Christianity as (Western) Atheism is born in reaction to unreasonable and mythical creeds of the Pauline-Christianity. Right?
I don't find "four horsemen" in other religions, please. Right?
Hence, the connection?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
@URAVIP2ME answered, but I just want to point out - you are the second person that appears to have missed it - the OP refers to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Sorry, one did not notice the title of the thread does not qualify it as "of the Apocalypse ", please. Right?

Regards
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The last week of the Passover 30 AD.
  • Jesus and his disciples enter Bethphage, where Jesus fulfills Zechariah 9:9.
  • Then from there, Jesus and his disciples enter Jerusalem, wher he throws out the merchants from the temple.
  • He later leaves, for where he is staying... I assume he has a place nearby... probably in Bethphage.
  • The next day, he returns to Jerusalem. Before arriving, he miraculously dries up a fig tree - teaching his disciples the need to remember to have faith, even when he is gone.
  • Again in Jerusalem, while in the temple, he is once again surrounded by the Pharisees, demanding him explain the meaning of him doing "these things". I suppose they were still fuming about the events the previous day(s). They got even more angry, when he used an illustration to describe their wickedness.
Thanks for your answer but the above is not correct.

Jesus (and followers) goes to Jerusalem on the first day of that last week, is greeted as he enters (Palm leaves etc). goes to the Temple and looks at all the sights, leaves and goes back out to Bethany for the night.
End of Day one.

Now, if you want me to show you the chapter/verse for this simple account, please ask and I will reply by return.

I've never yet had a correct reply about this from a Christian....from HJ Students yes, every time. It's as if Christians speed past or over the writings that don't 'click' for them, but this report tells so much with so few words.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I wonder if sightseeing is the correct word to describe the crowd at John 12:9-11.
However, they wanted to see the resurrected friend of Jesus as mentioned in John chapter 11.
Because the crowd heard Jesus was coming to Jerusalem they took palm branches to meet Jesus and praise God.
- see John 12:12-19
It is exactly correct, using modern day terms.

So many people miss it. This just after the Palm leaves entry.............
Mark {11:11} And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

That is sightseeing. It's very important for HJ students because it shows that Jesus and disciples didn't visit the Temple that often, maybe even less than once a year as required. They were not intimately acquainted with the Temple to the point that it was 'usual'.

Christians do seem to polarise to G-John, which clearly was written by authors who had no intimate knowledge about exactly what or when Jesus did anything. His regular visits over three years is bunkum imo. G-Mark describes an 11-12 month campaign during which only that one week's visits happened.

On day 2 they went in and ransacked the Money changing stalls in Anna's Bazaar and Picketed the Temple Courts all day long. etc etc
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You're not taking all this literally, are you?
To me it is literal just as Jesus said the declaring about God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) would be done on an international scale just as it is now being done world wide as never before in history.

To me it is literal that man can't direct his step (man's history shows man dominates man) so God will have Jesus step in.
Just because it has not happened before in history does Not mean it won't happen.
Known science warns that man is bringing ruin to Earth, and Revelation teaches that God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth - Rev. 11:18 B

In the past God always warned before taking action, so we are forewarned that when men are saying, " Peace and Security...." (coupled with the global preaching work) that is the warning that we will see divine involvement into mankind's affairs.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Yes, Revelation 6:8 does qualify as one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Hasn't the Apocalypse or the Armageddon and or the Holy War has already started with advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, methinks, please? Right?

Regards
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Hasn't the Apocalypse or the Armageddon and or the Holy War has already started with advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, methinks, please? Right Regards

In Scripture, I find first (before Armageddon) there will be a 'great tribulation' as mentioned at Revelation 7:14,9.
So, the answer is 'No' the Apocalypse has Not yet or already started.
In Scripture, Armageddon /great tribulation is coupled with global international preaching work - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
However, we are in the last days of badness on Earth as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
Once the international declaring about God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is completed to God's satisfaction then the powers in charge will surprisingly turn on the religious world.
This will start the great tribulation that will climax in Armageddon (the last war -Psalms 46:9) before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth for persons of goodwill.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
nPeace said: < OP for Pauline 4 horsemen
paarsurrey said: < for Atheism 4 horsemen

In Scripture, I find first (before Armageddon) there will be a 'great tribulation' as mentioned at Revelation 7:14,9.
So, the answer is 'No' the Apocalypse has Not yet or already started.
In Scripture, Armageddon /great tribulation is coupled with global international preaching work - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
However, we are in the last days of badness on Earth as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
Once the international declaring about God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is completed to God's satisfaction then the powers in charge will surprisingly turn on the religious world.
This will start the great tribulation that will climax in Armageddon (the last war -Psalms 46:9) before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth for persons of goodwill.
" So, the answer is 'No' the Apocalypse has Not yet or already started."

I see that Pauline-Christianity represented by the OP here has though depicted picture of 4 horses and 4 anonymous riders, but it cannot identify their names as its believers are weak in interpreting or they seldom or vaguely understand their scriptures, methinks.

But the reactionary movement generated by Pauline-Christianity, I mean, the (Western) Atheism have at least given the names and pictures of 4 horsemen as mentioned by me in my post #143, without the horses though. Right?

The (peaceful) holy war or the end time war or the Apocalypse and or the Armageddon has since been started by the Second Coming 1835-1908, one should have known it, I figure. Right?

Regards
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Who hasn't heard of the four horsemen of the apocalypse?

Since WWI - the great war, involving the whole world, there has been no peace. The world is again on the brink of another major war.

Since WW2 the world experienced the most peace it ever has and the most unity with Nato.

The riders of the pale horse, and the black horse fittingly describe these world events.

The pandemic, which we are still facing, was/is like a plague of death, from pestilence.

There have been many pandemics, many were much worse.

  • Plague of Athens (430 to 426 BC): During the Peloponnesian War, typhoid fever killed a quarter of the Athenian troops and a quarter of the population. This disease fatally weakened the dominance of Athens, but the sheer virulence of the disease prevented its wider spread; i.e. it killed off its hosts at a rate faster than they could spread it. The exact cause of the plague was unknown for many years. In January 2006, researchers from the University of Athens analyzed teeth recovered from a mass grave underneath the city and confirmed the presence of bacteria responsible for typhoid.[56]
  • Antonine Plague (165 to 180 AD): Possibly measles or smallpox brought to the Italian peninsula by soldiers returning from the Near East, it killed a quarter of those infected, up to five million in total.[57]
  • Plague of Cyprian (251–266 AD): A second outbreak of what may have been the same disease as the Antonine Plague killed (it was said) 5,000 people a day in Rome.[citation needed]
  • Plague of Justinian (541 to 549 AD): The first recorded outbreak of bubonic plague started in Egypt and reached Constantinople the following spring, killing (according to the Byzantine chronicler Procopius) 10,000 a day at its height, and perhaps 40% of the city's inhabitants. The plague went on to eliminate a quarter to half the human population of the known world.[58][59]
  • Black Death (1331 to 1353): The total number of deaths worldwide is estimated at 75 to 200 million. Eight hundred years after the last outbreak, the plague returned to Europe. Starting in Asia, the disease reached the Mediterranean and western Europe in 1348 (possibly from Italian merchants fleeing fighting in Crimea), and killed an estimated 20 to 30 million Europeans in six years;[60] a third of the total population,[61] and up to a half in the worst-affected urban areas.[62] It was the first of a cycle of European plague epidemics that continued until the 18th century.[63] There were more than 100 plague epidemics in Europe during this period.[64] The disease recurred in England every two to five years from 1361 to 1480.[65] By the 1370s, England's population was reduced by 50%.[66] The Great Plague of London of 1665–66 was the last major outbreak of the plague in England and killed approximately 100,000 people, 20% of London's population.[67]
  • Third plague pandemic (1855): Starting in China, it spread into India, where 10 million people died.[68] During this pandemic, the United States saw its first outbreak: the San Francisco plague of 1900–1904.[69] Today, sporadic cases of plague still occur in the western United States.[70]
  • The 1918-1920 Spanish flu infected half a billion people[71] around the world, including on remote Pacific islands and in the Arctic—killing 20 to 100 million.[
This debunks that "the end times are at hand" rhetoric.

This to me is like clear evidence, of fulfillment of one of the end-time prophecies.
Who does not agree, and why not?

How is it clear? There have been far greater times were wars were raging around the world and terrible pandemics?


This is a discussion of the Persian myth from ~1600 B.C. that the Christian writers made Revelations from.

Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.

Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which

there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
One may like to read my post #183 , please.
I consider Western Atheism a flip side of the Pauline-Christianity or a denomination of the Pauline-Christianity as (Western) Atheism is born in reaction to unreasonable and mythical creeds of the Pauline-Christianity. Right?
I don't find "four horsemen" in other religions, please. Right?
Hence, the connection?

Regards
Not sure what you are trying to say, or how it relates to the OP, sorry.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Thanks for your answer but the above is not correct.

Jesus (and followers) goes to Jerusalem on the first day of that last week, is greeted as he enters (Palm leaves etc). goes to the Temple and looks at all the sights, leaves and goes back out to Bethany for the night.
End of Day one.
Not exactly. In reading the accounts, and putting them together as one....
  • Jesus on heading toward Jerusalem stops at a small town, where he sends for and collects the animals he evidently brought.
  • The people in Jerusalem hear that Jesus is coming, and goes out in herds to meet him.
  • Jesus encounters the crowds on the road, and they lay palm branches and garments along the road.
  • Jesus later enters Jerusalem, and goes to the temple, to teach.
  • He then leaves for the evening. (End of day one)
He does so, three times as recorded, on three different days. So he is back and forth, from Bethany, where he spends the night, to Jerusalem, where he teaches in the temple.
On two occasions, he throws out those buying and selling.
............

Now, if you want me to show you the chapter/verse for this simple account, please ask and I will reply by return.
Please provide the scriptures which support your idea of what happened.

I've never yet had a correct reply about this from a Christian....from HJ Students yes, every time. It's as if Christians speed past or over the writings that don't 'click' for them, but this report tells so much with so few words.
You have never spoken to a Christian on this then.
Remember, there are many "Christians", but the Christians are well educated in the things belonging to their leader, the Christ.
Hence why of Jesus God said, "Listen to him", and of the disciples of Christ, we are to listen to them, in order to gain understanding of the truth. Matthew 24:45
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Please provide the scriptures which support your idea of what happened.
Easy!
Mark 11:11
No teaching. Nothing but looking around at everything...... Or do you say that this entry is wrong?

You have never spoken to a Christian on this then.
Remember, there are many "Christians", but the Christians are well educated in the things belonging to their leader, the Christ.
No Christian has ever shown that they have read that simple report.
No ....Christians are not all well educated about Jesus, but what they got told about 'Christ' afterwards is not of interest to me.
 
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