Put God on trial!

2ndpillar said:

you can eat whatever you want.

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While in that day, they did indeed need (for the reason pointed out just above in the other post I just wrote above) to refrain from those types of food, it was decided, for the sake of those that would be offended or misled by their eating such...

Christ taught us a key thing about foods and such, and it amounts not only to a change in some of the old rules --

Matthew 15:11 A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it."

But here of course, we hear the that what we say towards others (how we treat others) is vastly more important than food restrictions (some of which would be kept at times, depending on the situation).

Context: Matthew 15 NIV (verses 1-20, and an explaining at the end)

halbhh said:

While in that day, they did indeed need (for the reason pointed out just above in the other post I just wrote above) to refrain from those types of food, it was decided, for the sake of those that would be offended or misled by their eating such...

Christ taught us a key thing about foods and such, and it amounts not only to a change in some of the old rules --

Matthew 15:11 A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it."

But here of course, we hear the that what we say towards others (how we treat others) is vastly more important than food restrictions (some of which would be kept at times, depending on the situation).

Context: Matthew 15 NIV (verses 1-20, and an explaining at the end)

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You seem to be mixing apples with oranges. Matthew 15:2 & 20 are about washing with unclean hands, per the Talmud, which is making a lie of the law (Jeremiah 8:8). The original washing of hands was for the priests approaching the altar (Ex 30:17). As for "unclean" food, apparently, even Noah understood the concept. You may eat swine and mice, both unclean, but apparently God does not think well of that with regard to how "they" "purify themselves, or on what they eat.:

Isaiah 66:17 “New American Standard Bible
“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat pig’s flesh, detestable things, and mice, Will come to an end altogether,” declares the LORD.

Thirza Fallen said:

But wouldn't God realize that if someone is praying to him, they must believe in him? Even Jesus said the thief on the cross would be with him in paradise, when he didn't say the Sinner's Prayer, etc. He simply asked to be remembered.

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I believe the thief made a confession of faith that Jesus was innocent. That is an acceptance.

InChrist said:

I don’t doubt God realizes that a person praying believes in Him in some form another, but I also think God knows the sincerity or motives when someone prays and responds or doesn’t respond accordingly.

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I believe my daughter prays but more to the universe these days. She is a sinner who loves her sin and the Pharisees thought that God would not hear a sinners prayer but I disagree and the response depends on what God wishes to do not on the person's spiritual state. I would consider the parable of the unjust judge as evidence of that.

Bree said:

All im going to say is that Gods actions are always justified and it is mankind who dictate the methods and terms of war. It is man who is barbaric. God has allowed man to operate in this way but it does not mean it is Gods way.

If God chooses to put someone to death, it is instant and justified. Also, as the creator, he is the only one with the 'right' to put someone to death who deserves it.

People who put others to death have no right to do so..

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I believe God has sanctioned putting people to death and has supported Israel in her battles. Usually He supports the side that is right but in the case of the Assyrians and Babylonians he allowed the unrighteous to punish Israel for abandoning God.

2ndpillar said:

You seem to be mixing apples with oranges. Matthew 15:2 & 20 are about washing with unclean hands, per the Talmud, which is making a lie of the law (Jeremiah 8:8). The original washing of hands was for the priests approaching the altar (Ex 30:17). As for "unclean" food, apparently, even Noah understood the concept. You may eat swine and mice, both unclean, but apparently God does not think well of that with regard to how "they" "purify themselves, or on what they eat.:

Isaiah 66:17 “New American Standard Bible
“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat pig’s flesh, detestable things, and mice, Will come to an end altogether,” declares the LORD.

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Hi, 2ndpillar, as you have probably seen, I don't make a lot of posts, and try to say more in just 1 post. So, you might think of it as a few posts put together, and that I will not come back soon to reply, because the topic is deep and not to be rushed.

So, I'm trusting that unlike 95% of people here, you'd read very carefully.

I'll do the same.

So, I'm going to bring together several key things into 1 post.

Christ pointed out how in that time (and continuing during Paul's time) the Pharisees had become caught up in their own traditions about how to interpret cleanliness and keeping the Sabbath, and more, and that they had lost (just like in Isaiah chapter 1!) the real, true intent and meaning and aim of the Law, in this chapter (and many other places also):

full chapter:
Matthew 23 NIV

They were so caught up in their rules for the aspects of cleanliness and other such rules that they had entirely forgotten what God has communicated in Isaiah chapter 1 about what matters most, it seems.

Don't you agree?

Christ said that now things would change -- that now, beginning with Him, the worship of God would be not only outward, but "in spirit and in truth" -- John 4:24 God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth." -- and the full story in this passage is such a powerful illustration:

A key teaching of Christ about the change in how God is to be worshipped, full chapter:
John 4 ESV

Now, also, we should notice that Paul did teach that it is possible for an individual person to sin by doing what they individually themselves think is wrong to do (even if it isn't proscribed):

full chapter needed, and key verse at end about the individual understanding that can matter for what is allowed to that individual:
Romans 14 NIV

halbhh said:

Hi, 2ndpillar, as you have probably seen, I don't make a lot of posts, and try to say more in just 1 post. So, you might think of it as a few posts put together, and that I will not come back soon to reply, because the topic is deep and not to be rushed.

So, I'm trusting that unlike 95% of people here, you'd read very carefully.

I'll do the same.

So, I'm going to bring together several key things into 1 post.

Christ pointed out how in that time (and continuing during Paul's time) the Pharisees had become caught up in their own traditions about how to interpret cleanliness and keeping the Sabbath, and more, and that they had lost (just like in Isaiah chapter 1!) the real, true intent and meaning and aim of the Law, in this chapter (and many other places also):

full chapter:
Matthew 23 NIV

They were so caught up in their rules for the aspects of cleanliness and other such rules that they had entirely forgotten what God has communicated in Isaiah chapter 1 about what matters most, it seems.

Don't you agree?

Christ said that now things would change -- that now, beginning with Him, the worship of God would be not only outward, but "in spirit and in truth" -- John 4:24 God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth." -- and the full story in this passage is such a powerful illustration:

A key teaching of Christ about the change in how God is to be worshipped, full chapter:
John 4 ESV

Now, also, we should notice that Paul did teach that it is possible for an individual person to sin by doing what they individually themselves think is wrong to do (even if it isn't proscribed):

full chapter needed, and key verse at end about the individual understanding that can matter for what is allowed to that individual:
Romans 14 NIV

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Reverting to Romans, apparently written by Tertius, apparently a follower of the false prophet Paul, is not the best summation one could make. As for worshipping God, worshipping in truth, would not entail using the message of the devil/evil one/enemy as part of that worship (Matthew 13:38-39). As for Yeshua, he was the Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8), yet your "Christians" keep the day of the sun (Sol Invictus), the day set as a day of rest by the 7th head of the beast, the Roman emperor Constantine in 331 A.D.

Muffled said:

I believe God has sanctioned putting people to death and has supported Israel in her battles. Usually He supports the side that is right but in the case of the Assyrians and Babylonians he allowed the unrighteous to punish Israel for abandoning God.

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Yes that is right. He has allowed war, he has even used angels to put entire army's to death. He has allowed his people Israel to be taken by war when they were doing the wrong things.

What it shows us is that God knows whats going on. He's interested in what is going on and he can manouver things on earth when he chooses to do so.

But he is never behind the cruel tactics of people who perform these acts of violence. He may not stop the acts of perpetrators, just as he is not stopping Russia right now from invading Ukraine, but we know that he condemns them.

2ndpillar said:

Reverting to Romans, apparently written by Tertius, apparently a follower of the false prophet Paul, is not the best summation one could make. As for worshipping God, worshipping in truth, would not entail using the message of the devil/evil one/enemy as part of that worship (Matthew 13:38-39). As for Yeshua, he was the Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8), yet your "Christians" keep the day of the sun (Sol Invictus), the day set as a day of rest by the 7th head of the beast, the Roman emperor Constantine in 331 A.D.

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Ah. If none of the epistles of Paul were in the New Testament, you could still find all things you need in the gospels and also expanded in the other epistles, but without some of the expansions that are in the epistles, you'd have to be very careful not to miss even one sentence that Christ said in the gospels. You'd need a very total listening.

So, you could do fine without Paul's writing, if you really listen to Christ. For instance (just one of many things needed):

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6 NIV

(faith is foremost, essential, and the basis (the only basis) for salvation, see for example John chapter 15:1-17 also to help expand more about abiding in Christ with real reliance on Him to even be able to do any true good (of the more enduring kind) at all....)

So, one would need to very carefully read all Christ said, taking it all to heart, and with great listening and faith. (which is a good and needed thing for all of us, regardless)

halbhh said:

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6 NIV

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I think maybe you should start believing, and heeding what Yeshua said. And he said to not believe anyone who says, "He is in the wilderness" (Matthew 24:26), which would be alluding to the message from Paul.

2ndpillar said:

I think maybe you should start believing, and heeding what Yeshua said. And he said to not believe anyone who says, "He is in the wilderness" (Matthew 24:26), which would be alluding to the message from Paul.

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If we do carefully read all of Matthew chatper 24 (which I have perhaps a dozen times over about 45 years, and in many ways, with all the cross references, commentaries, and so on), and much better, all of the Gospel of Matthew fully, then we get the meaning more completely, and then be better able to consider any given individual. Matthew ch 24 is prophecy about the 2 times, the final days, along with also a section about Jerusalem in 70AD, and also warnings about false prophets. We have several warnings about false prophets in the New and Old Testaments, and I know them all since I've read fully through all of the common bible more than once. Do you know the other section in Matthew about false prophets -- I don't ask to challenge you, but to remind you (or else to encourage you to seek it out, or even better, to read fully through all this book). Notice if you read more around the verse you took a piece from you get more meaning:

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.


As you can see, this refers to the very last days, and when Christ does return (instead of a false claimant), it will not be confused/unclear, but as totally undeniable as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west -- something that no one can doubt.