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If Jesus, then why Paul?

Jagella

Member
Although Jesus is the main figure in the New Testament, Paul is arguably a fairly close second. Both men preached the new religion, had followers, performed miracles, uttered apocalyptic prophecies, were at odds with the Jews, and were reputedly martyred for their expressed beliefs. I'd like to focus this discussion on the role of both men as preachers and prophets. The preaching of Jesus is recorded in the four Gospels, and Paul's preaching is recorded in Acts and in his epistles. Paul seems to fill the role of a Johnny-come-lately or even an interloper of sorts who added his 2¢ to what Jesus had preached about twenty years earlier. If Jesus had come to preach the Gospel, then why was Paul needed to complete that job? Wasn't Jesus able to preach everything the early Christians needed to know? Jesus had three years, or so we are told, and I think that would have been more than enough time to say everything Paul said.

Based on these facts, it looks like Paul was an opportunist who convinced or tried to convince people that he was an additional apostle of Christ who was miraculously converted by Jesus himself. By doing so, he gained prominence in the new faith claiming to be divinely led to let the world including gentiles know about Jesus.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
Although Jesus is the main figure in the New Testament, Paul is arguably a fairly close second. Both men preached the new religion, had followers, performed miracles, uttered apocalyptic prophecies, were at odds with the Jews, and were reputedly martyred for their expressed beliefs. I'd like to focus this discussion on the role of both men as preachers and prophets. The preaching of Jesus is recorded in the four Gospels, and Paul's preaching is recorded in Acts and in his epistles. Paul seems to fill the role of a Johnny-come-lately or even an interloper of sorts who added his 2¢ to what Jesus had preached about twenty years earlier. If Jesus had come to preach the Gospel, then why was Paul needed to complete that job? Wasn't Jesus able to preach everything the early Christians needed to know? Jesus had three years, or so we are told, and I think that would have been more than enough time to say everything Paul said.

Based on these facts, it looks like Paul was an opportunist who convinced or tried to convince people that he was an additional apostle of Christ who was miraculously converted by Jesus himself. By doing so, he gained prominence in the new faith claiming to be divinely led to let the world including gentiles know about Jesus.
Jesus told all his followers to go and preach the gospel. (Mark 16:15) It's strange how so many people blame Paul for simply obeying Jesus Christ. Perhaps his only "sin" is he was an overachiever. That he would put so much effort into it.

I know Paul did a great job.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The mythology of Paul was in contradiction with the book of Mark, where they told not to believe in anyone who claimed to have met Jesus.

I regard Pauline Christianity as a counterfeit to the orginal version of Christianity.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
Although Jesus is the main figure in the New Testament, Paul is arguably a fairly close second. Both men preached the new religion, had followers, performed miracles, uttered apocalyptic prophecies, were at odds with the Jews, and were reputedly martyred for their expressed beliefs. I'd like to focus this discussion on the role of both men as preachers and prophets. The preaching of Jesus is recorded in the four Gospels, and Paul's preaching is recorded in Acts and in his epistles. Paul seems to fill the role of a Johnny-come-lately or even an interloper of sorts who added his 2¢ to what Jesus had preached about twenty years earlier. If Jesus had come to preach the Gospel, then why was Paul needed to complete that job? Wasn't Jesus able to preach everything the early Christians needed to know? Jesus had three years, or so we are told, and I think that would have been more than enough time to say everything Paul said.

Based on these facts, it looks like Paul was an opportunist who convinced or tried to convince people that he was an additional apostle of Christ who was miraculously converted by Jesus himself. By doing so, he gained prominence in the new faith claiming to be divinely led to let the world including gentiles know about Jesus.


2 Timothy 2:8

Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

that should answer your question. :)
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Some think the letters of Paul came before the Gospels.
The Gospels gathered later from Witness and myth.

True the written Gospels were later than Paul's letters, however the preaching of the Apostles, the oral tradition, came before Paul's writing,
'For what I received I passed onto you'.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Although Jesus is the main figure in the New Testament, Paul is arguably a fairly close second. Both men preached the new religion, had followers, performed miracles, uttered apocalyptic prophecies, were at odds with the Jews, and were reputedly martyred for their expressed beliefs. I'd like to focus this discussion on the role of both men as preachers and prophets. The preaching of Jesus is recorded in the four Gospels, and Paul's preaching is recorded in Acts and in his epistles. Paul seems to fill the role of a Johnny-come-lately or even an interloper of sorts who added his 2¢ to what Jesus had preached about twenty years earlier. If Jesus had come to preach the Gospel, then why was Paul needed to complete that job? Wasn't Jesus able to preach everything the early Christians needed to know? Jesus had three years, or so we are told, and I think that would have been more than enough time to say everything Paul said.

Based on these facts, it looks like Paul was an opportunist who convinced or tried to convince people that he was an additional apostle of Christ who was miraculously converted by Jesus himself. By doing so, he gained prominence in the new faith claiming to be divinely led to let the world including gentiles know about Jesus.
Because Jesus was sent to teach only the Jews... Paul was God's missionary to the gentile world. Jesus didn't preach the gospel per se that much because the main part, his own death and Resurrection, hadn't happened yet.
He preached a lot about preparing for the kingdom... Probably prepared a lot of Jewish hearts to recieve the gospel later.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Although Jesus is the main figure in the New Testament, Paul is arguably a fairly close second. Both men preached the new religion, had followers, performed miracles, uttered apocalyptic prophecies, were at odds with the Jews, and were reputedly martyred for their expressed beliefs. I'd like to focus this discussion on the role of both men as preachers and prophets. The preaching of Jesus is recorded in the four Gospels, and Paul's preaching is recorded in Acts and in his epistles. Paul seems to fill the role of a Johnny-come-lately or even an interloper of sorts who added his 2¢ to what Jesus had preached about twenty years earlier. If Jesus had come to preach the Gospel, then why was Paul needed to complete that job? Wasn't Jesus able to preach everything the early Christians needed to know? Jesus had three years, or so we are told, and I think that would have been more than enough time to say everything Paul said.

Based on these facts, it looks like Paul was an opportunist who convinced or tried to convince people that he was an additional apostle of Christ who was miraculously converted by Jesus himself. By doing so, he gained prominence in the new faith claiming to be divinely led to let the world including gentiles know about Jesus.

Paul came first, then came the gospel story, after Paul's death. Believers claim that the gospels are based on an oral tradition, but it appears that Paul knew nothing of this oral tradition, nor did any of the other epistle writers with the exception of the few that wrote after the gospels were written.

The gospels and Acts of the Apostles read like fiction, as do all the other gospels and acts that did not make it into the New Testament, so why do believers insist that the gospels are non-fiction? Is it just for the sake of believing?
 

Jagella

Member
Jesus told all his followers to go and preach the gospel. (Mark 16:15) It's strange how so many people blame Paul for simply obeying Jesus Christ. Perhaps his only "sin" is he was an overachiever. That he would put so much effort into it.

I know Paul did a great job.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear in the OP, but when I referred to Paul's preaching, I was referring to what Paul said that Jesus didn't say. Paul wasn't just another Christian preacher repeating what Jesus said but was apparently unique in that he came up with doctrines that not only differed from what Jesus preached but are arguably in conflict with what Jesus said. Also, Paul's writings are recorded in the canon of the New Testament, something that most other Christians including Jesus himself didn't achieve. So please explain this rather odd fact.
 

Jagella

Member
I have often wondered about evangelical Christians who put Paul's teachings above those of Jesus. It seems backwards.
I think that fact can be explained by Martin Luther's emphasis on the faith Paul preached as opposed to the works that Jesus preached. This difference is perhaps the biggest rift in Christian beliefs and practices.
 

Jagella

Member
Some think the letters of Paul came before the Gospels.
The Gospels gathered later from Witness and myth.

If most scholars are correct, then yes, Paul's epistles preceded the Gospels.

Without Paul's letters, I suspect there'd be no Christianity.

Maybe I should have asked if Paul, then why Jesus! Paul's Jesus was a glorified, celestial Jesus while the Gospel Jesus was primarily an earthly figure. It was perhaps advantageous for the early church to offer people a physical Jesus who walked among them rather than a boiler-plate god in the sky.
 

Jagella

Member
I regard Pauline Christianity as a counterfeit to the orginal version of Christianity.

What was the original version of Christianity? Since Paul's version is the earliest version of Christianity we know of, then I'd say his Christianity is a good candidate for the original Christianity.
 
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Jagella

Member
Because Jesus was sent to teach only the Jews... Paul was God's missionary to the gentile world. Jesus didn't preach the gospel per se that much because the main part, his own death and Resurrection, hadn't happened yet.
He preached a lot about preparing for the kingdom... Probably prepared a lot of Jewish hearts to recieve the gospel later.
What kept Jesus from preaching to Jew and gentile alike? Again, he had plenty of time to do so.
 

Jagella

Member
Paul came first, then came the gospel story, after Paul's death. Believers claim that the gospels are based on an oral tradition, but it appears that Paul knew nothing of this oral tradition, nor did any of the other epistle writers with the exception of the few that wrote after the gospels were written.

Paul had a very different way of seeing Jesus than the Gospel writers did. Some people like Maurice Casey argue that Paul didn't bother to write about the details of Jesus' life because Paul's readers either already knew about those details or didn't care!

The gospels and Acts of the Apostles read like fiction, as do all the other gospels and acts that did not make it into the New Testament, so why do believers insist that the gospels are non-fiction? Is it just for the sake of believing?

Yes, the Gospels record events that the writers could not have known about such as Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, so in that regard the Gospels do appear to be fictional. However, to achieve salvation, Christians need a real Christ so the Gospels for them must be history.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Paul had a very different way of seeing Jesus than the Gospel writers did. Some people like Maurice Casey argue that Paul didn't bother to write about the details of Jesus' life because Paul's readers either already knew about those details or didn't care!

How could Paul be expected to know the details of a story that wasn't written until after his death? Maurice Casey makes an odd argument.

Yes, the Gospels record events that the writers could not have known about such as Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, so in that regard the Gospels do appear to be fictional. However, to achieve salvation, Christians need a real Christ so the Gospels for them must be history.

Paul's Christ was real to him, and he promised everyone that would listen to him that Christ would come down to earth on a cloud of glory within his and their lifetime.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
What kept Jesus from preaching to Jew and gentile alike? Again, he had plenty of time to do so.
It wasn't his mission. Not that he never healed gentiles, but

"Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep—the people of Israel.”

Jeremiah 50:6, God calls Israel His people l “lost sheep.” The Messiah, throughout the Old Testament, was seen as the one who would gather these “lost sheep” (Ezekiel 34:23-24; Micah 5:4-5). Jesus presented Himself as a shepherd to Israel, the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy (Mark 6:34, 14:27; John 10:11-16; see also Hebrews 13:20; 1 Peter 5:4; and Revelation 7:17).
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear in the OP, but when I referred to Paul's preaching, I was referring to what Paul said that Jesus didn't say. Paul wasn't just another Christian preacher repeating what Jesus said but was apparently unique in that he came up with doctrines that not only differed from what Jesus preached but are arguably in conflict with what Jesus said. Also, Paul's writings are recorded in the canon of the New Testament, something that most other Christians including Jesus himself didn't achieve. So please explain this rather odd fact.
Well even Jesus told his disciples that he had many more things to say to them but they could not bear them now. (John 16:12) So we shouldn't think that Jesus ever intended to stop speaking to his followers. Just because he went to heaven doesn't mean he stops talking. He sends the holy Spirit and speaks to them that way. In fact he says the Spirit of truth will "lead and guide" them into all truth. That strongly suggests that they have more to learn. It suggests that they have not yet reached "all truth". So they need the Spirit of truth to guide them. (John 16:13)

So I reason that there is no doubt some of the things they couldn't bear then are the same things Paul talked about. Because they were so revolutionary. Because at the time Jesus said "you can't bear them now" For example; they all still believed they must keep the Law of Moses to be saved. So if Jesus had told them at that time all the revelations that they would later learn ... Then they would have freaked out and they would not have understood.

As for Jesus not having his own writings in the Bible. I think that he didn't want to be a writer. He came to preach and teach. He expected his followers to write and they did. I think it's a good thing. Because the gospel is more about his person. I think if he actually wrote a book then that would take preemenince for people. But since it was his followers who wrote about him ... that points everything to him as it should. It takes the emphasis off of the book and on to Jesus himself.

It's like you can't really praise yourself. You have to let other people praise you.

As for what is arguably in conflict with what Jesus said. There is a few things that should be understood about that. First of all some of these conflicts can be explained by the fact that while Jesus was alive (before the resurrection) they were still all in the old Testament. So they were still under the Law of Moses. Even Jesus was. That means that some things Jesus taught had to do with that time period. The new Testament comes through his blood. (Matthew 26:28) So, there was no new Testament until after he died on the cross and rose from the dead. That's why some things that Paul teaches might seem to contradict because he was teaching in the new Testament and Jesus was teaching during the old Testament.

That doesn't mean we throw everything Jesus taught away. It just means we understand what he means. So everthing he says is useful and most of it is still applicable. But we do know (if we study enough that is) the difference between the old and new Testaments.

Finally other seeming contradictions might just need more examination to work out. Even Peter said that many people who read Paul's writings twist them to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16) So, the writings of the Bible (and particularly many of the writings of Paul) are not always easy to understand. They need the guidance of the holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14) and experience also is useful. (Hebrews 5:14) Experience could require years of studying with the help of the holy Spirit.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Although Jesus is the main figure in the New Testament, Paul is arguably a fairly close second. Both men preached the new religion, had followers, performed miracles, uttered apocalyptic prophecies, were at odds with the Jews, and were reputedly martyred for their expressed beliefs. I'd like to focus this discussion on the role of both men as preachers and prophets. The preaching of Jesus is recorded in the four Gospels, and Paul's preaching is recorded in Acts and in his epistles. Paul seems to fill the role of a Johnny-come-lately or even an interloper of sorts who added his 2¢ to what Jesus had preached about twenty years earlier. If Jesus had come to preach the Gospel, then why was Paul needed to complete that job? Wasn't Jesus able to preach everything the early Christians needed to know? Jesus had three years, or so we are told, and I think that would have been more than enough time to say everything Paul said.

Based on these facts, it looks like Paul was an opportunist who convinced or tried to convince people that he was an additional apostle of Christ who was miraculously converted by Jesus himself. By doing so, he gained prominence in the new faith claiming to be divinely led to let the world including gentiles know about Jesus.
One may like to read my posts #30 ,,#41, ,#91, and ,#92 on the subject of Paul in another thread here, please. Are these useful please?
Anybody, please

Regards
 
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