Well, apparently the devil quoted the Scripture to Yeshua in the wilderness. Apparently, Paul takes quotes out of context of the Scriptures, and builds castles founded on text out of context. As with the devil, Paul quotes from the same Scriptures as Yeshua, but Paul's message leads to "destruction", and Yeshua's message leads to "life" (Matthew 7:13-23). Example: Paul says that Yeshua was "cursed" for hanging on a tree, which is a false conclusion taken from a Deuteronomy text, for the text reads that one is curse if they hang on a tree into the night. Yeshua was supposedly taken down from the cross prior to the end of the day so that he would not be cursed. The only ones who were hung on a tree into the night were Peter/"Cord") (Zechariah 11:14), Judah (Zechariah 11:13), and probably Paul, who was most probably garroted by Nero after sundown, to give balance to how the 3 shepherds of Zechariah 11:8 were "annihilated". Nero's favorite method of killing his adversaries was to garrot them. A garrot is comprised of two pieces of wood (tree), and a cord.
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Put God on trial!
- Thread starter Spiderman
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Well, apparently the devil quoted the Scripture to Yeshua in the wilderness. Apparently, Paul takes quotes out of context of the Scriptures, and builds castles founded on text out of context. As with the devil, Paul quotes from the same Scriptures as Yeshua, but Paul's message leads to "destruction", and Yeshua's message leads to "life" (Matthew 7:13-23). Example: Paul says that Yeshua was "cursed" for hanging on a tree, which is a false conclusion taken from a Deuteronomy text, for the text reads that one is curse if they hang on a tree into the night. Yeshua was supposedly taken down from the cross prior to the end of the day so that he would not be cursed. The only ones who were hung on a tree into the night were Peter/"Cord") (Zechariah 11:14), Judah (Zechariah 11:13), and probably Paul, who was most probably garroted by Nero after sundown, to give balance to how the 3 shepherds of Zechariah 11:8 were "annihilated". Nero's favorite method of killing his adversaries was to garrot them. A garrot is comprised of two pieces of wood (tree), and a cord.
Revelation 14:12 says that the "saints" "keep the commandments of God", as well as Revelation 12:17. As for the kingdom, consisting of the combined Judah and Ephraim, living on the land given to Jacob, under the kingship of David (Ezekiel 37:24-28 & 36:26), "they will be given a new heart and spirit" and "they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes... forever". Without a new heart and a new spirit, one does not keep My laws. One must first be cleansed and then get a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:26). The "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31 was promised to the "house of Israel"/Ephraim, and the "house of Judah"/Jews, not the Gentile church, which will last "many days" (Hosea 3), until Israel returns.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
You keep all the mosaic law? You go to the temple and sacrifice animals?
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
That's so true.
And the most clear example of that of all would be the famous Romans chapter 3, where Paul combines bits from many passages to say the hyperbolic:
10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.” b
13“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.” c
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.” d
14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” e
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know.” f
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” g
Romans 3 NIV
But we know, and it's not even obscure at all, that many in the Old Testament were counted 'righteous' for their faith -- as explained wonderfully in Hebrews chapter 11.
And which Paul himself doesn't get to in the chapter, doesn't say anything to correct the seeming first impression that simply none have any righteousness ever....until the next chapter, when he starts to finally do more to begin to complete the real meaning in the thought from the previous chapter:
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
But how many even get to chapter 4 after seeing what seems obvious error in chapter 3?
Yes, Matthew chapter 7 is the best, most perfect example of what Paul doesn't get to very well in his letters -- a crucial needed thing one might have trouble learning from Paul's letters, unless one realizes that "love others fulfills the law" (as Paul wrote). But, love fulfills the law when done fully/best, and that is a more complete/perfect loving which we don't do (for enough of our neighbors) perfectly on our own without God's help....
Paul is preaching over and over and over to people who sincerely thought that only their own works and obeying laws alone would earn them heaven.
Without God's work.
Paul wrote to those that thought they would achieve full righteousness, by themselves, on their own merits, without any grace/gift from God.
And that is the pressing need of those people in that time which Paul works endlessly in his letters to help.
Paul is writing to correct their mistaken idea and help them realize, like Job, whom God called "blameless" that in reality we need to admit we fall short (on our own):
As Job finally said: Job 42:6 Therefore I retract my words, and I repent in dust and ashes."
Because what we typically think is good enough isn't always good enough, Christ said:
Mark 10:18 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus replied. "No one is good except God alone.
And that's why we need Grace and following Christ, both.
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The "grace" of God is that the "elect" have been known from the foundation of creation, according to Paul in Ephesians 1:4. As for your belief that Yeshua is the son of God, and that will get you into heaven, apparently the demons know who Yeshua is, and yet they must continue to tremble when contemplating their end. I assume that you are not going to sell all you own and follow me, after keeping the Commandments, so where does that leave you (Matthew 19)? Do you heed the message of Yeshua, or the message of self-professed apostle Paul? Yeshua said not one iota of the Law and the prophets will be lost until the heaven and the earth pass away (Matthew 5:18), whereas Paul said the law has been nailed to a cross. As for "faith" versus works, Abraham didn't just believe God, he acted on that belief as detailed in James 2:21. If you like Romans, keep in mind Pau said," I know that nothing good indwells in me... for the good I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish....I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh, the law of sin". This is approximately the position of most "Christians" who follow Paul. A life of hypocrisy. This is the same guy who said in Ephesians 1:4 that God chose him before the foundation of the world so that he should by "holy" and without "blame". Peter, Paul, and Judas were indeed chosen from the foundation of the world per Zechariaih 11, but their role was to be annihilated in one generation, and for Peter and Paul to "pasture" the "flock (gentile church) doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7)
New King James Version Ephasians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Reading more carefully, fully, with a listening attitude. So that I can hear the actual intended meaning....
That I cannot put something else above God....
Here's very helpful context (and the context is really the entirety of the gospel, but this passage is very helpful):
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, c your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are unhealthy, d your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
So....the rich young ruler that was so wealthy, and loved his luxuries....wasn't willing to give up those luxuries even for the wonderful, infinitely valuable adventure and beautiful rewarding life of literally following Christ....
When he turned away from Christ, because he loved his luxuries more....that was a very sad thing.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
You know that scripture originally wasn't written in chapters right? Yes Paul can be hard to follow, because he thinks deeply and builds his theology piece by piece on his new understanding of the Torah and the sacred writings, as he now understands Jesus was Messiah.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
So
did you sell everything yet? Apparently not if you are using a computer...
syo
Well-Known Member
Nah, he is nonexistent. Christians do the atrocities.The God of the Bible is simply very sick!
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Yes, it's such a good point. It's often helpful to quote a passage or chapter without any verse notation. Paul definitely didn't write for us to use a fragment of a paragraph or such in isolation, without reading the rest.
To sell everything and give it to the poor does not keep you in poverty. Your only real wealth is in a healthy mind, body and spirit. If you give, it will be returned 10 or a hundred-fold. Not that I couldn't be using my libraries computer, which I have done often, but what I have given to the poor has been returned around a 1000-fold. If you want an example to give everything, that poor lady who gave her last pence to the poor person, lost everything she had, but according to Yeshua in Matthew 25:34-40, she gained the "kingdom of heaven". With the "kingdom of heaven", comes everything one needs (Matthew 6:28-34).
I suggest that you go back and read the rest. I think you will find Paul in a boat without a paddle. Paul actually didn't give chapter and verse, and often jumbled chapters and verse together, which were taken out of context, which didn't actually make his point. The "teachers" appointed by Paul, today, do the same thing. Paul quotes from Psalm 14:1 in Romans 3:10-12, in which Psalms 14 & 53 are alluding to the "fool", and "workers of wickedness" yet in Romans 3:10-12, it is used to allude to all of the Jews and the Greeks, not that there are not "fools" and "workers of wickedness" found in both groups, but those "workers of wickedness" were eating up "My people" (Psalms 53:4).
I don't know. It appears the Mongols, who became Muslims, kill around 30 million, Mao a worshipper of Marx, killed about 40 to 80 million, Hitler, the national socialist, started a war that killed around 60 million, Stalin, a communist socialist, who worshipped Marx, as his god, killed around 30 million. The atrocities with regard to the "Christians", was done by the church, the daughter of Babylon, who sat on the beast, and led by false prophets, and was done mostly to Jews and other so called Christians. Muslims follow Mohammad, who is just another leader of a daughter of Babylon, who is worshipped by the Muslims as their prophet. The Progressives would be glad to kill any conservative they found out late at night, but they haven't yet attained the power to do so without consequence, except for the highest tier.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
I'm glad to be able to tell you I've read Romans about 7-9 times now, in several study groups and with commentaries and books, and also on my own separately, and also much the same for the other epistles Paul wrote. And even moreso for the Gospels.
Perhaps you should ask me questions that are not about Paul's writing style or odd ways of using bits of verses, but more general and crucial.
For example, a question about something that really matters a lot might be like these examples: "Does Paul say sinning is ok?" or "Does Paul advocate doing away with the Law?" or "Does Paul recognize the crucial importance of doing what Christ commanded us?"
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How would Paul know what Yeshua said ("commanded us")? Circumcision is part of the law, and Paul is clearly undermining Circumcision, which is in line with his role per Zecheriah 11:10, as a shepherd taken to "pasture the flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7). Paul wrote the writings of the law has been nailed to the cross. As for sinning, Paul said he wasn't the one sinning, but the evil that is within him (Romans 7:20). I suggest that you quit reading the false prophet Paul, who was all things to all men, and read what Yeshua and the prophet wrote.
Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
(a most key thing we learn about Paul is at the end of this post, but first let me address this question)
Paul would learn in part what Christ said by simply listening to any of the many living eye witnesses to Christ who were around and testifying about Christ.
After Paul's encounter with Christ and conversion (in Acts we read of that), then later we read in Acts:
5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”
7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized.
9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.” 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God."
But even more convincing perhaps would be what the apostles themselves decided about Paul (sending him out to preach more, in verse 22 (and 25 reiterates): Acts 15 NIV
So, to think Paul was in the wrong ultimately, you'd have to also think that the Church in Jerusalem, with Peter, James, and more were also in the wrong ultimately, to endorse and send Paul out to preacher further, as they did.
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halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Remember what God has said/promised in the previous time:
Deuteronomy 30:6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Consider how crucial, key, essential, primary this is!
It would never do to be circumcised in the flesh, and not the heart. God doesn't want us to get caught up in lesser things, and neglect the most key things of all:
11“The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
13Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
14Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!
16Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.
17Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.
18“Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
Isaiah 1 NIV
So, when we read about the circumcision of the heart in the New Testament, we know that is much more than only some good wording that appeals (it's not just good phrasing that we like....). It's the most essential thing of all.
Moses also preached to circumcise the heart, yet his wife physically circumcised her son to protect Moses from the angel of death. Israel will get a new heart and spirit after they are "gathered" out of the nations (Ezekiel 36),and Israel/Ephraim and Judah will be given a new heart and spirit after they are joined together under the leadership of David, on the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37) and will keep My statutes.... forever. The physical is an image of the spiritual. The water baptism is only an image of the spiritual cleansing (Ez 36:25-26), yet the water baptism is still in effect. Eating the bread of life, the Word of God, without leaven/hypocrisy, is still supposed to be done in an image of the spiritual event, in a physical manner. If you read Zechariah 11:10, the covenant with the father of nations, Abraham, was to be "cut in pieces" by the shepherd called "Favor", who was Paul. That covenant made with Abraham was the covenant of circumcision. That "shepherd" along with two other shepherds were to be annihilated in one month (the same generation). That shepherd along with Peter (Zechariah 11:17) were to be the staffs used to "pasture the flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter" (Zech 11:7). As for high Sabbaths, after Har-Magedon, the survivors of the nations will be forced to worship the king in Jerusalem every year (Zechariah 14) on the feast of Booths. The feasts were a calendar of prophetic events. The "feast of Booths" was one of the last feasts, followed by the 8th day, as in a thousand years after the last feast, the feast of booths, you have the white throne judgment. Without keeping the sabbaths, you don't know what is coming down the track. If we were under the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31, no one would have to teach their neighbor to know the LORD for they would all know the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:34).
Your narrative is based on writings from the unknown author of Acts 15:20, who may have been an associate of Paul. Even there, Paul was supposed to teach not to have fornication, eat food sacrificed to idols, and not to eat food strangled and from blood. Whereas Paul preaches there are no idols, and if you are strong, you can eat whatever you want. Paul's followers seem to reject doing anything Paul said he would preach but didn't. According to Matthew 13, the tares were to be left to their own devises until the "end of the age" whereas they would be "gathered up" "first" and thrown into the fire. Apparently, Paul, spreading the message of the devil (Matthew 13:38), is under the protection of Yeshua until the "end of the age". Well, we are now at the "end of the age", and Paul and his tares, are no longer under any protection. You can only look forward to things getting worse for the tares, as if things weren't bad enough for them already.
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halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Ah, I know this chapter very very well, as it is so key to other things in Paul's epistles.
In the end, an idol is, just like God has said over and over in the Old Testament, only mere wood or stone, or the work of someone's hands ( a mere crafted object). (we could probably both quote many verses saying this, but ask if you'd like to hear some I'd use)
It's lifeless. It has no power. It avails nothing.
Because it is only a piece of wood, stone, or metal, meaningless ultimately, unable to do anything at all.
Keeping all of that in mind, then read 1 Corinthians 8 NIV.
If you read it trying to hear the intended meanings, you'd very likely agree with what it says I think.
It says that we ourselves might sometimes have to make a temporary sacrifice (in this temporary life) for the sake of someone that is weaker in understanding than us, about something, for their sakes, so that they not be tripped up and lost forever.