How can we find truth?

autonomous1one1 · Jan 22, 2007

lunamoth said:
In my life I consider one Truth absolute, and that is Love.

Greetngs. I agree with you here, Luna. Love is above the subject-object structure within which most people look for truth. I think that Katz, in her original op statement, is asking how you have found that truth. My answer was the New Being which gives me the same answer. I also believe that New Being is for us and can be experienced directly.

I have noted from other threads that PureX lives in a world of love throughout all. Katz is asking how did you find that PureX, if you consider it an absolute truth?

Sunstone, you have mentioned in other threads that perhaps spiritual experience begins with a recognition of the interconnectedness of all things (forgive if my words are not accurate). That seems like an important truth to me, how did you find that out?

At least that is my interpretation of the op rather than defining truth and whether or not there is God.

Best Wishes

cardero · Jan 22, 2007

Pure X writes: Absolute truth would render faith obsolete.

It should.

Pure X writes: The fact that we require faith, it seems to me, is evidence against there being any absolute truth. Or certainly against our being able to recognize it.

Or even our wanting or desiring it to be Absolute Truth (death comes to mind).

Pure X writes: And what good is an absolute truth that no one can recognize?

Absolute Truth never requires our proof, permission, recognition or desire of belief to continue.

lunamoth · Jan 22, 2007

autonomous1one1 said:
Greetngs. I agree with you here, Luna. Love is above the subject-object structure within which most people look for truth. I think that Katz, in her original op statement, is asking how you have found that truth. My answer was the New Being which gives me the same answer. I also believe that New Being is for us and can be experienced directly.
...
At least that is my interpretation of the op rather than defining truth and whether or not there is God.

Best Wishes

Katz' OP assumes that there is a God, and also seems to assume that God is a supernatural being Who wants us to know the truth yet in a contradictory manner does not go ahead and disclose that Absolute Truth to us universally. Obviously this does not add up. Since it does not makes sense to me, it's not the paradigm from which I operate. If God gives us reason, holds us responsible, but then in turn acts so unreasonably, I'd have to conclude that this God was really a monster. And I can't conclude that.

How did I get to my conclusion?

Experience, reflection, reading, prayer and some particularly profound discussions with good friends.

PureX · Jan 22, 2007

autonomous1one1 said:
I have noted from other threads that PureX lives in a world of love throughout all. Katz is asking how did you find that PureX, if you consider it an absolute truth?

I consider it a chosen ideal. How absolute it is, I have no way of knowing.

PureX · Jan 22, 2007

cardero said:
Absolute Truth never requires our proof, permission, recognition or desire of belief to continue.

I guess I meant what need is there for us to recognize it, then?

Katzpur · Jan 22, 2007

autonomous1one1 said:
My belief is that truth is found according to the preparation of the recipient.

I hadn't stopped to consider that, but I think you really hit the nail on the head.

As a matter of fact, that's the only answer anybody has given me yet that has really made sense. Your answer does not contradict my OP in any way, since I was looking for an answer that was based on two premises -- that God exists and that there are absolute truths. Whether you personally believe these two premises to be true on not, autonomous1one, your answer is the only really value one I can think of. (And what really made me feel a bit dense is that it is so completely in line with the doctrines of my own Church! I mean why didn't I come up with that on my own?)

doppelganger · Jan 22, 2007

lunamoth said:
In my life I consider one Truth absolute, and that is Love. Love is a pretty broad term, often confused with emotion or desire, so I'll expand it and say: love, charity, unity, oneness, selflessness, loving-kindness, compassion, empathy, agape. The Christian spin on the Truth: dying to self and rising in Christ.

I agree heartily. Any other "Truth" is an illusion.

Cynic · Jan 22, 2007

Katzpur said:
Assuming that there is such a thing as absolute truth (as I personally believe there is), how does God, assuming He exists (as I believe He does) expect us to find it? Since it seems to me that God would want us to come to a know what is true and what isn't, why do we get supposedly conflicting answers when we ask Him for guidance. If we are sincere in our search for truth, why do you suppose God isn't giving all of us the same answers?

Truth is subjective, and that subjectivety is inescapable, no matter how objective we are. However, the best thing we can do, is try to be as objective as possible, because in subjectivity, our biases lead to fallacy and irrational conclusions.

God isn't giving all the same answers because that is a natural phenomina behind the subjectivity of truth. Not everyone is going to come up with the same answers. However, when we are objective, "truth" becomes intersubjective. When we are objective, we will find the same or similar results, because objectivity excludes our biases, and truth becomes irrelevant. This is because when we arrive to a conclusion, or make an assertion, we are fundementally forming a bias. Truth, like I stated previously, is ultimately subjective.

People arrive to conclusions using their own methods, whether if it is scientifical or illogical. Kent Hovind, uses a method to arrive at the conclusion that the flood made the grand canyon. Scientists use the scientific method, and so far one cannot arrive at such a conclusion, scientifically. Our methods are highly invovled in cultivating truth.

Katzpur · Jan 22, 2007

Cynic said:
Truth is subjective, and that subjectivety is inescapable, no matter how objective we are.

We're not debating whether truth is subjective or objective, relative or absolute. My OP was based on the premise that it is objective and absolute, and I'm interested in hearing debates based on my premise -- not on the basis that my premise is flawed.

Cynic · Jan 22, 2007

Katzpur said:
We're not debating whether truth is subjective or objective, relative or absolute. My OP was based on the premise that it is objective and absolute, and I'm interested in hearing debates based on my premise -- not on the basis that my premise is flawed.

:sorry1:

lunamoth · Jan 22, 2007

I agree that truth is found according to one's experience, or preparation as he says:

A1 said:
My belief is that truth is found according to the preparation of the recipient.

Katzpur said:
I hadn't stopped to consider that, but I think you really hit the nail on the head. As a matter of fact, that's the only answer anybody has given me yet that has really made sense. Your answer does not contradict my OP in any way, since I was looking for an answer that was based on two premises -- that God exists and that there are absolute truths. Whether you personally believe these two premises to be true on not, autonomous1one, your answer is the only really value one I can think of. (And what really made me feel a bit dense is that it is so completely in line with the doctrines of my own Church! I mean why didn't I come up with that on my own?)

But, this still leaves it to be explained whether one person's percieved truth is closer to the Absolute than another, or whether one percieved truth is better than another, and why this would be so.

doppelganger · Jan 22, 2007

But there's a "truth" (of sorts) to our lack of captured "Truth." And that truth of perspective is the means by which Truth is experienced even if it is not "known" or "found."

From Will to Power:

Against positivism, which halts at phenomena--"There are only facts"--I would say: No, facts is precisely what there is not, only interpretations. We cannot establish any fact "in itself": perhaps it is folly to want to do such a thing.

"Everything is subjective," you say; but even this is interpretation. The "subject" is not something given, it is something added and invented and projected behind what there is.--Finally, is it necessary to posit an interpreter behind the interpretation? Even this is invention, hypothesis.

In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable; but it is interpretable otherwise, it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.--"Perspectivism."

It is our needs that interpret the world; our drives and their For and Against. Every drive is a kind of lust to rule; each one has its perspective that it would like to compel all the other drives to accept as a norm.

We set up a word at the point at which our ignorance begins, at which we can see no further, e.g., the word "I," the word "do," the word "suffer":--these are perhaps the horizon of our knowledge, but not "truths."

Katzpur · Jan 22, 2007

But, this still leaves it to be explained whether one person's percieved truth is closer to the Absolute than another, or whether one percieved truth is better than another, and why this would be so.

If there is, in fact, absolute truth, then to me it is reasonable to assume that the closer perceived truth is to absolute truth, the better. But as you pointed our earlier, I don't believe that God's going to condemn anyone to hell for less than a perfect score on the "truth test." Since my religion allows for us to continue to approach absolute truth after death, autonomous1one's answer really rang true to me.

Kungfuzed · Jan 23, 2007

Katzpur said:
Assuming that there is such a thing as absolute truth (as I personally believe there is), how does God, assuming He exists (as I believe He does) expect us to find it? Since it seems to me that God would want us to come to a know what is true and what isn't, why do we get supposedly conflicting answers when we ask Him for guidance. If we are sincere in our search for truth, why do you suppose God isn't giving all of us the same answers?

Perhaps the only absolute truth God wants us to discover in this life is ourselves. Perhaps once we really know ourself then everything else will fall into place.

autonomous1one1 · Jan 23, 2007

PureX said:
I consider it a chosen ideal. How absolute it is, I have no way of knowing.

Greetings, PureX. If one is going to take that approach, there is no better ideal to choose than love in my book.

autonomous1one1 · Jan 23, 2007

Katzpur said:
I hadn't stopped to consider that, but I think you really hit the nail on the head. ....

Glad you found something in this, Katz. Can't remember what first got me on to it; I think it was from Buddha but it may very well have come from an LDS Christian.

cardero · Jan 23, 2007

Kungfuzed said:
Perhaps the only absolute truth God wants us to discover in this life is ourselves. Perhaps once we really know ourself then everything else will fall into place.

This is very thoughtful and profound. Everything that we need to discover the Truth has been installed as standard equipment (mind, body and soul). It is the optional ingredients that we add later (faith, stubbornness, ego, pride) that interfere with concluding Absolute and Personal Truth.

Kungfuzed · Feb 23, 2007

Katzpur said:
Assuming that there is such a thing as absolute truth (as I personally believe there is), how does God, assuming He exists (as I believe He does) expect us to find it? Since it seems to me that God would want us to come to a know what is true and what isn't, why do we get supposedly conflicting answers when we ask Him for guidance. If we are sincere in our search for truth, why do you suppose God isn't giving all of us the same answers?

Perhaps not all the answers are comming from God or the same God. There could be multiple Gods, or angels, or devils, whatever you want to call them, all trying to communicate with us. In this case God would expect His elite to recognize His voice and guide the others. Or we could put the blame on ourselves and say that we're not good enough, not righteous enough, not faithful enough, sinful, lustful, greedy, selfish humans that don't even deserve to kiss the ground God walks on. It would still be up to an elite few to guide the others. Perhaps it's just the fact that every human on this earth is different, and so they recieve and interperet answers in different ways. In this case, a multitude of religions would be required to bring a multitude of people to Him.

sandy whitelinger · Feb 24, 2007

Katzpur said:
Assuming that there is such a thing as absolute truth (as I personally believe there is), how does God, assuming He exists (as I believe He does) expect us to find it?

That's why He created me.

Ernestine · Feb 24, 2007

There is a book called "The Truth that Leads to Everlasting Life" published by the Watchtower orgnization (Jehovah's Witnesses). Get the book, read it, look up the scriputures, use your encyclopedia, the Internet or any other references to do further research and I will guarantee you that you will have found the truth.

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