How should racial remarks be handled in school?

smoky*mountain*starlight said:

I think it depends on the school. Racist comment are a part of everyday life at my school. What really gets to me, though, is that racial slurs against black kids are punished, but when a white kid is called a cracker or white trash by a black kid, it goes completely unpunished. I do believe the punishment, whatever it may be, should be the same for everybody.

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Do you really believe that when a white kid is called a "cracker" by a black kid that it has the same emotional affect as when a black kid is called a n*gger by a white kid?

I agree that racial slurs should be discouraged no matter who is saying what to whom, but this idea of "equal treatment" fails to take into account that things are not equal. History is not equal. Power is not equal.

Radio Frequency X said:

I think they should be discouraged, but I don't see how we can ban people from making racist comments. That would infringe on our freedom of speech.

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There are limitations on free speech already, RFX.

Kids may be able to say whatever they like in the public square, but the schools have a right to set up their rules to have a decent environment for learning.

It's no more a limit on free speech for a school to say "thou shalt not call anyone @*%^*#" than it is for a company to prohibit certain types of speech in the workplace.

Do you really believe that when a white kid is called a "cracker" by a black kid that it has the same emotional affect as when a black kid is called a n*gger by a white kid?

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Um, yes, I really do. It is ok for black kids to be racist towards white kids, but not ok for white kids to be racist towards black kids? I mean, really...what do you mean when you say things are not equal?

I think they should be discouraged, but I don't see how we can ban people from making racist comments. That would infringe on our freedom of speech.

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Dude, it's SCHOOL. Our freedom of speech is infringed upon every single day! They tell us what to say, what not to say, how to say it, what tone of voice to use, and how many times you should write out the sentance when you use improper grammar. I don't think people are truly American citizens until they're 18...we don't have freedom of anything until we're 18.

lilithu said:

Do you really believe that when a white kid is called a "cracker" by a black kid that it has the same emotional affect as when a black kid is called a n*gger by a white kid?

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I got called "honky" a few times in school, but in no way felt harmed by it. I thought it was laughable, and there's no comparison between the non-effect that had on me and the obvious effect the n-word has.

There were 60 kids in my class (split into 2 classes) and I was one of 3 white kids. I had to push my way to the door in elementary school so I could be the first one out, because I had to tear home to avoid getting the crap beat out of me.

But once I was there -- I knew who was "in charge" in our society. Gov't officials and the police were all white. You turned on the tube, and all the "smart" and "good" people were white. The movers and shakers...all white.

There is simply NO comparison between my experience and that of a black person growing up in a mainly white society. I understand *some* things about the experience of blacks in this society, because I've got a bit of the flip side of it, but there's now way short of changing my skin I could really truly understand what they live with daily.

smoky*mountain*starlight said:

Dude, it's SCHOOL. Our freedom of speech is infringed upon every single day! They tell us what to say, what not to say, how to say it, what tone of voice to use, and how many times you should write out the sentance when you use improper grammar. I don't think people are truly American citizens until they're 18...we don't have freedom of anything until we're 18.

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You may not have as much freedom as you think at 18 either. People in this culture respect money. Until you're the age group that has it, you are no one. And once you pass out of that age (as I'm about to do now), then you're nobody once again.

Also, try a little freedom of speech at your job. Um..better update your resume first.

I think we need to quit sheltering our children so much. We are turning out generations of 20 year olds that act like pre teens because mommy and daddy wanted to protect them from getting their feelings hurt. Kids need to learn that the world is full of differant people and some of them are a**holes.

smoky*mountain*starlight said:

Um, yes, I really do. It is ok for black kids to be racist towards white kids, but not ok for white kids to be racist towards black kids? I mean, really...what do you mean when you say things are not equal?

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First of all, I said that all racial slurs by anyone towards anyone should be discouraged.

Second, read Booko's post. Racism isn't just about the personal feelings that one person has towards another. I absolutely agree that a black kid can have racial bias against whites in the same way that a white kid can have racial bias against blacks. But racism isn't just racial bias. Racism is racial bias coupled with social power. And social power is not equal in this country.

Yes, of course it's possible for a black person to hate you because you're white and call you names, and it might even hurt your feelings a little. But it's darn near impossible for that black person to affect your life in any meaningful way - to affect your level of education, your chances of getting a job, an apartment, a loan... because most of the people who make the decisions about where the money goes for education, or who gets hired, or who gets the apartment, or who gets the loan are not black. Most of the people who make the decisions are still white. Social power is not equal in this country.

When I was in college I worked in a music store and one of my coworkers was a buff black man with a mohawk who fronted a punk band. One day he was stocking cds and he took his flannel shirt off and put it on a box. A couple of slackers tried to steal his shirt but he caught them. He was in the right. They were in the wrong. He was working hard for his money. They were trying to steal something that wasn't theirs. They had no real defense whatsoever, so they called him a n*gger as they quickly exited the store. And I saw my friend, big and strong as he was, absolutely livid but powerless to strike back. With that one word they dehumanized him in a way that him calling those kids "honkey" would never have the same effect. The n-word carries with it all of the history of slavery and segregation and lynchings... It's not just one person calling another person a name. Social context always comes into play.

I will concede that "cracker" and "white trash" likely have more affect than "honkey" because "cracker" and "white trash" carry with them connotations of class. If you're middle to upper class and someone calls you "white trash" it's likely laughable. But if you're working class and someone calls you "white trash" I can believe that it really hurts. I still don't believe it has the same power as the n-word, but concede that I can't speak from personal experience.

Um, yes, I really do. It is ok for black kids to be racist towards white kids, but not ok for white kids to be racist towards black kids? I mean, really...what do you mean when you say things are not equal?

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Smoky is right. Nobody should get a free pass to be racist. So let's take the race of the speaker out of the equation for a moment, and focus on context.

If someone hurls a racial epithet at you (or your child) at school, what is their intent? Do they believe you are inferior? Do they resent you because they believe you are unfairly advantaged? Do they fear or mistrust you because you're different? Or do they have an issue with you that has nothing to do with your race, but know that goading you with slurs is a way to humiliate you?

I believe that slurs are used in a much more calculating way than they used to be, but they remain a statement of power over their target. Which is interesting, because I think they always reveal the weakness of the speaker. Schools handling these kinds of situations should focus less on punishing kids for using forbidden words and even on promoting racial harmony. Their first order of business should be to treat the situation as a dispute between two people. What is the grievance that made one of them react with violent speech?

On the other hand, slurs can also be used in an ironic, colloquial way among friends or as mimicking of popular culture. That, to me, is another issue entirely, and we can argue whether it's good or bad. But I don't think that it deserves to be punished since the intent is clearly not the same.

"Honkey" and "n*****" are not the same. One of those two words has years of institutionalised oppression- the other doesn't.

It's like the skit from SNL with Chase and Pryor (which I would post a link to, but YouTube has deleted it). It starts out with just word association but then turns into racial insults.

[SIZE=-1]"White," Chevy said. "Black," Pryor answered.
"Negro." "Whitie."
"Tarbaby." "What'd you say?"
"Tarbaby." "Ofay."
"Colored." "Redneck."
"Junglebunny. "Peckerwood!"
"Burrhead." "Cracker!"
"Spearchucker." "White trash!"
"Junglebunny!" "Honkey!"
"N*****!" "Dead honkey!"

The only thing that Pyror has against the word "n*****" is not a slur against whites that has the same vileness and oppressive history that "n*****" does- but just "dead honkey." Never has "10 honkeys for sale" or "lynching of a whitey for looking at a black women" ever been posted on signs in this nation and followed through with.
[/SIZE]

The only thing that Pyror has against the word "n*****" is not a slur against whites that has the same vileness and oppressive history that "n*****" does- but just "dead honkey." Never has "10 honkeys for sale" or "lynching of a whitey for looking at a black women" ever been posted on signs in this nation and followed through with.

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That's over 200 years ago, though. The lynchings took place up into the 1900s, but slave auctions were conducted over 200 years ago. It's time to move on. I understand that white racial slurs have not been used in the same context as black racial slurs. But the fact is that no one should call anybody a n***** or cracker, whether people believe "one is worse than the other" or not.

I have a question: why is N***** considered foul language, something we are expected to bleep out, when terms like cracker and honkey are perfectly acceptable to type and say?

jamaesi said:

"Honkey" and "n*****" are not the same. One of those two words has years of institutionalised oppression- the other doesn't.

It's like the skit from SNL with Chase and Pryor (which I would post a link to, but YouTube has deleted it). It starts out with just word association but then turns into racial insults.

[SIZE=-1]"White," Chevy said. "Black," Pryor answered.
"Negro." "Whitie."
"Tarbaby." "What'd you say?"
"Tarbaby." "Ofay."
"Colored." "Redneck."
"Junglebunny. "Peckerwood!"
"Burrhead." "Cracker!"
"Spearchucker." "White trash!"
"Junglebunny!" "Honkey!"
"N*****!" "Dead honkey!"

The only thing that Pyror has against the word "n*****" is not a slur against whites that has the same vileness and oppressive history that "n*****" does- but just "dead honkey." Never has "10 honkeys for sale" or "lynching of a whitey for looking at a black women" ever been posted on signs in this nation and followed through with.
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Leave it to comedy to make the most astute social commentary.

Man, SNL just isn't the same anymore. Thank goodness for Dave Chapell and Carlos Mencia.

Hey Jamaesi, did you know that Chapell's mom is a UU minister?

That's over 200 years ago, though. The lynchings took place up into the 1900s, but slave auctions were conducted over 200 years ago. It's time to move on. I understand that white racial slurs have not been used in the same context as black racial slurs. But the fact is that no one should call anybody a n***** or cracker, whether people believe "one is worse than the other" or not.

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Blacks only truely got the right to vote without having to pass "intelligence tests" and jump through hoops only about 50 years ago. Blacks still have hate crimes commited against them for the colour of their skin. Blacks still are not equal to whites in the economic, political, and social spheres. Whites still hold the institutional power.

I have a question: why is N***** considered foul language, something we are expected to bleep out, when terms like cracker and honkey are perfectly acceptable to type and say?

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Because they don't mean the same thing nor have the same history behind them.

Leave it to comedy to make the most astute social commentary.

Man, SNL just isn't the same anymore. Thank goodness for Dave Chapell and Carlos Mencia.

Hey Jamaesi, did you know that Chapell's mom is a UU minister?

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Wow, I didn't know that. Makes sense though, Chapell seems like a great guy.

Now Carlos Mencia... can't stand him. It's like when he says racial slurs or ethnic jokes he's not doing them to make a commentary on culture or politics, he's just saying them to make people giggle or cringe.

jamaesi said:

Blacks still are not equal to whites in the economic, political, and social spheres. Whites still hold the institutional power.

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Well, we do kind of have the majority of the population... Power through numbers.

Also, agreed on the Mencia comment, although for different reasons. He's just annoying and steals jokes.

jamaesi said:

Now Carlos Mencia... can't stand him. It's like when he says racial slurs or ethnic jokes he's not doing them to make a commentary on culture or politics, he's just saying them to make people giggle or cringe.

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I agree that he is definately trying to make people cringe, but that doesn't bother me. I think that he tells the jokes that a lot of people are thinking but are afraid to say. The question is whether he's doing it because he really believes them or is confronting us with our own foibles and I think (but obviously can't be sure) that he's doing the latter.

For one thing, "Beaners" are at the brunt of his jokes as much as anyone else is, and I don't think it's due to self-loathing.

For another, he has done skits that make fun of those who think that it's ok for white America to speak similarly. There was this one skit in particular where he went to the streets with a video camera and asked people of all races what the difference was between "n*gger" and "n*gga". The pivotal scene is when this white kid is standing next to a friend who is black and saying to the camera something like "It doesn't mean the same like it used to; it's more like, you know, a greeting...what's up, my n*gga!" and the camera shows the expression on his friend's face. He was definately NOT ok with it but the white kid is oblivious to this. That sooo captures our society today.

Still, I can understand why people might not like Mencia. His humour is mean-spirited. Definately not respecting the inherent worth and dignity of every person.

One thing that does bother me about Mencia is he can occasionally get a little too "rah,rah, America" for my tastes. Then he's not commenting on our society so much as immersed in its biases. In one particular episode where he was "talking to the terrorists" I had to change the channel.

Zephyr said:

Well, we do kind of have the majority of the population... Power through numbers.

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Not for long given the immigration trends.

So is it just a coincidence that some people are up in arms about illegal immigrants?

smoky*mountain*starlight said:

That's over 200 years ago, though. The lynchings took place up into the 1900s, but slave auctions were conducted over 200 years ago. It's time to move on.

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Is this what they teach you in history class??!

Slavery officially ended in the 1860s. That is NOT over 200 years ago. When slavery was ended, the ex-slaves had nothing. No money. No property. No education. Even so, most managed to build a life via their labor.

But blacks still had to deal with racial segregation. Inferior schools, the back of the bus, not being able to shop in the same stores, or eat in the same restaurants, or drink at the same water fountains, all of which was legal until the 1960s. Less than 50 years ago.

And as I said, it's still the case even today that when you apply for school, for a job, for a loan, try to buy a house, try to rent an apartment, it is usually a white person making the decision whether or not you're going to get it. Institutions of money and power are still controlled disproportionately by white Americans.

It is also the case that 62% of the people sent to prison for drugs are African-American even tho five times as many whites use illegal drugs as blacks.
(http://hrw.org/english/docs/2000/06/08/usdom595.htm)

As for lynchings, yeah, up into 1999. That's less than 8 years ago. Have we already forgotten James Byrd? Plus, I would say that the continued murders of unarmed African-American men by police constitutes a kind of lynching.

How do we "move on" given these continued disparities?

lilithu said:

Is this what they teach you in history class??!

Slavery officially ended in the 1860s. That is NOT over 200 years ago. When slavery was ended, the ex-slaves had nothing. No money. No property. No education. Even so, most managed to build a life via their labor.

But blacks still had to deal with racial segregation. Inferior schools, the back of the bus, not being able to shop in the same stores, or eat in the same restaurants, or drink at the same water fountains, all of which was legal until the 1960s. Less than 50 years ago.

And as I said, it's still the case even today that when you apply for school, for a job, for a loan, try to buy a house, try to rent an apartment, it is usually a white person making the decision whether or not you're going to get it. Institutions of money and power are still controlled disproportionately by white Americans.

It is also the case that 62% of the people sent to prison for drugs are African-American even tho five times as many whites use illegal drugs as blacks.
(http://hrw.org/english/docs/2000/06/08/usdom595.htm)

As for lynchings, yeah, up into 1999. That's less than 8 years ago. Have we already forgotten James Byrd? Plus, I would say that the continued murders of unarmed African-American men by police constitutes a kind of lynching.

How do we "move on" given these continued disparities?

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Excellent post except that I disagree with one thing. That is comparing the prison system of today or the killing of James Byrd to the organized lynch mobs of the 19th and early 20th centuries. I think there are two different dynamics. One is the organized racism against blacks from Reconstruction to the Civil Rights era and the other is the outright apathy of the majority of Americans towards the criminal justice system.

The problems of race relations in today's time are representative of a failure by all communities rather than organized discrimination with implicit cooperation of the government.

gnomon said:

Excellent post except that I disagree with one thing. That is comparing the prison system of today or the killing of James Byrd to the organized lynch mobs of the 19th and early 20th centuries. I think there are two different dynamics.

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I agree that the prison situation is a different dynamic, and I was not linking it to lynch mobs. I was merely giving evidence that racial disparities still exist.

It is unclear to me why you say that the killing of James Byrd is different from a lynch mob. It was clearly based on hate.

gnomon said:

One is the organized racism against blacks from Reconstruction to the Civil Rights era and the other is the outright apathy of the majority of Americans towards the criminal justice system.

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I disagree that the prison situation is based on nothing more than apathy. True that it is not active, and possibly not even conscious. But it is organized racism. How else to explain why the drug laws were intentionally changed, resulting in the higher incarceration rates of African-Americans?

I heard about this in a lecture two weeks ago. Unfortunately, I cannot find a web page that says the same thing. According to the lecture, up until the 1970s, in the state of Virginia, whites were incarcerated for illegal drug use at a higher rate than blacks. (This would make sense given the web page from the Human Rights Council that says that 5 times as many white Americans use illegal drugs as black Americans.) However, starting in the 1980s the drug laws were changed. Resulting from those changes, blacks now far outnumber whites in Virginia prisons due to drug infractions. That's not just apathy. People went to the trouble of changing the laws.

gnomon said:

The problems of race relations in today's time are representative of a failure by all communities rather than organized discrimination with implicit cooperation of the government.

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If by implicit cooperation you mean conscious cooperation, perhaps.

I think that for the most part conscious, personal racism is no longer a problem. That isn't to say that there aren't still bigots who hate based on race, but for the most part they have been marginalized and no longer hold institutional power. But the govt still perpetuates disparity based on race. These biases have been institutionalized so that they continue even without there being people consciously trying to harm anyone. If you start with a system in which one group controls most of the financial and political power - and then you say "ok, from now on, we're going to treat everyone equally. everyone gets rewarded based on what they contribute" it won't in fact be equal.

If the system isn't equal to start with, then treating eveyone "equally" isn't equal. It sure as heck isn't fair.