"Begotten", what does it mean?

Soapy said:

There’s nothing in that verse that suggests Satan EXCEPT that ALL DECEIVERS are OPPSERS TO TRUTH and are therefore SATANS (check the definition of the TITLE, ‘Satan’. And ‘Satan’ IS A TITLE. It is not the NAME of the fallen lead Angel. It is the title of him which can apply to ANYONE who does what this Angel did in his desire to do wrong.
By rights we should always preface like: ‘A Satan’

But regarding the verse; No, it’s just saying that vipers scatter and slither away from wrathful fire, for instance. The people of the time and in such places would be fully aware of broods of vipers and so John uses that analogy so they should be understanding of how disputable their behaviour was.

Click to expand...

Soapy You are wrong!
All Jews knew the story of Adam and Eve Satan being a snake! When John told them the Pharisees and Sadducees they are the children of the Viper they knew John was calling them Satan Children!

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Soapy did you see it? ..... that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,... (above)

Revelation 20:2
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Genesis 34
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Soapy that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,

sojourner said:

Look in any scholarly commentary. No reputable exegete explains Genesis with passages from Revelation. It’s just not part of that process. It doesn’t work that way. It’s like asking a doctor to prove that diagnosing a brain aneurysm by tossing tea leaves in the air isn’t proper diagnostic procedure. The doctor will tell you that such practices are wholly unreliable and unrelated to diagnostic procedure.

Reading a second century Greek writing into a Hebraic writing from the 600s BCE (with much older sources) is wrong. It will not help the reader understand what the older text is saying.

Click to expand...

You proved it by saying this?

muhammad_isa said:

I look at all of the Abrahamic scriptures, and piece it together like a jigsaw-puzzle.

Click to expand...

Good.
Did you get a picture? What does it look like? Do you mind showing me the complete picture?

muhammad_isa said:

G-d did not "have the temple destroyed". It was political. The Roman Empire actively oppressed believers [in Judaism], and due to rebellion decided to punish and oppress them further.

Click to expand...

Why do you believe that God did not abandon the city to destruction?
Do you think it would have been destroyed if it had God's backing?

(Matthew 23:37, 38) 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her - how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.

(Matthew 21:43) This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.

(Luke 21:20) “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.

Surely, you have not forgotten the past. 1 Kings 9:7, 8 ; Jeremiah 12:7 ; Jeremiah 22:5
Why would you think it was not repeated?

muhammad_isa said:

You are right that G-d's law is not corrupt. It is mankind who are corrupt, and interpret "the law" as it suits them .. much like people exploit loopholes in tax law etc.

Click to expand...

Are you sure you are Muslim?
So, do you have a problem with the Bible? Do you think it is corrupt?

muhammad_isa said:

I agree entirely with this.

Click to expand...

Really? You keep knocking the wind out of me.
So do you believe the harlot represents corrupt religion which will be destroyed by political powers?

Dogknox20 said:

Soapy You are wrong!
All Jews knew the story of Adam and Eve Satan being a snake! When John told them the Pharisees and Sadducees they are the children of the Viper they knew John was calling them Satan Children!

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Soapy did you see it? ..... that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,... (above)

Revelation 20:2
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Genesis 34
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Soapy that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,

Click to expand...

Looks clear enough to me... without the bright red.
Some persons don't know how to put scriptures together, in order to understand them. They tend to come up with their own ideas - taking things literal, where symbolism is used, and using symbolism where literal use is applied.

muhammad_isa said:

Absolutely.
Muslims believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah [Christ]
The vast majority believe that Jesus will return as the Messiah as per Revelation.
It will be as if he never left the world .. much like a time-traveller, he will be the same person .. the same age as when he ascended to heaven. He will appear in the same manner as he disappeared.

Click to expand...

Many people believe that. I see it differently, but either way, the warrior king will wage war on earth, and those against him don't stand a chance.
What do you see happening after the great war? Revelation 16:14-16; Revelation 19:19

Soapy said:

And how is believing in ONLY the Father and the Son (TWO) guaranteeing eternal life when TRINITY says we should believe in THREE to gain eternal life?

Click to expand...

No, it say you must believe in One God. YHWH who is a Trinity.

muhammad_isa said:

Yes, but many claim that you must believe in Jesus in a specific way.
Do you believe that the so-called Arians are guaranteed eternal salvation?
Why did the Roman politicians make it illegal to believe in Jesus in any other way than what they thought was "correct"?
Is that what Jesus wanted? To oppress their fellow believers who did them no harm other than disagreeing with some of their doctrines?

Why specifically, would so-called Arians not be guaranteed salvation?

Click to expand...

I dont adhere to the religious laws set out by any Church or orginasation.
I believe in the regulations set out By Jesus Himself in the Gospels.
Anyone teaching anything else than the Divinity of Jesus who died on the cross, and was ressurected from death, is the Anti Christ, and the source of Satans' deception.
What people do to others is what they will answer to Jesus on the day of Judgement.

MyM said:

Yes, agreed bad things happen to good people, but in Islam, we don't humiliate to our prophets of God, drunkenness and sexual behavior. Why would anyone do that....it's not just that, but to have that in a so called book of God and especially so many sexual acts in the book of Ezekiel about whoredoms who lay with the entire armies and the way it's portrayed....God doesn't talk like that. It's a humiliation for that stuff to be in a book of God.

Click to expand...

In Ezekiel God compares the Children of Israel with being harlots with Idolatory!
I think God had the right to compare them with harlots having sex with a donkey...
What a filthy thing to do when you deliberately curse YHWH, and practice the Ba'Allah idol!
They had a house of Ba;Allah where they practiced their Baal temple prostitution.
They had Male prostetutes who would first administer sex to women who would get married the next day or so.
All women had to partake to temple prostetution to Arstarte (Diana) once a year!
The Priests were Levites, God's tribe of sacred rites, who simply brought this religion into Israel.

Now, I have great respect to the version Ezekiel portrayed through YHWH's words, because if He did not make this comparison on these filthy priests and their Ba'Allah worship, we would never have known about God's hatred towards these Ba'Allah worshippers who used the Moon Cresent and star as their sign.

Secondly, Ezekiel is evidence that the scribes of the Bible NEVER thought to white wash the Bible, even though it contained this horrible description.

Nice to have the Word of God telling the Truth, isnt it?

MyM said:

is meant for SA Huguenot

You are NOT one to explain to others about the Quran. You have already proven the point when you tried and did humiliate Allah even after it was explained to you. You continue to bash and say what you want about Allah, his Quran and Muslims. Yet you have no inkling on what Islam is. You just love to humiliate and then when it bites you back, you go and complain as if it is a personal attack on you. You sure can dish it but you can't take it.

Leave Islam alone and go find the reasons why the Bible has mistakes in them. That's what you should be worried about. You believe in a book that is already known and proven to have mistakes in them and you seem to be so proud of it. Then get back to me.

Click to expand...

Well, I found only 3 mistakes, but considering that the Bible is at least 2300 years old, and the NT at least 1980 years old, I have no problem with it at all.
Therefore, from my position, the Bible has authority over any other book ever written, including the Quran, and book of Mormon.

So far I did not see the Quran biteing anything, but you!

Are you telling me the Bible is wrong?
Even though Allah told Muhammad the Bible is true, it is Allah's word, it can never be changed?

You see, the Quran bites only Muslims who say Allah cant protect his revelations, and Humans are stronger than Allah because they can change Allah's revelations!

My friend, you should know that if you are a Muslim, Allah will ask you at the last day whay you made him a liar in sayinf Allah was without power to protect his words.

Dogknox20 said:

The serpent is Satan...
John is calling the Pharisees and Sadducees Satan's Children!
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

Click to expand...

The Hebrew word is Nachash.
Can also mean deceiver, or magician. Play of words in the Bible is specifically complementary to the scene of the event.

2ndpillar said:

Have you been begotten, born again, and become a son of God, which according to Yeshua is anyone who does the will of God? Are you now without sin? (1 John 3:9)

Mt 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

King James Bible 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Click to expand...

Yip!

SA Huguenot said:

I dont adhere to the religious laws set out by any Church or orginasation.

Click to expand...

Pity .. there's too many protestants who think they know it all
..pick up a Bible, and think that everybody is going to hell, except for them.

G-d knows who is saved from the fire of hell.
It is enough for us to believe that it exists, and fear G-d.

muhammad_isa said:

Pity .. there's too many protestants who think they know it all
..pick up a Bible, and think that everybody is going to hell, except for them.

G-d knows who is saved from the fire of hell.
It is enough for us to believe that it exists, and fear G-d.

Click to expand...

I think the viewpoint of a lot of people are that protestants believe only they go to heaven.
And I also left my church because of that thought.

I dont believe in any Church, priester, priest, dominee, pope, self proclaimed apostle, modernday prophet, etc.
I believe in the Protestant view that:
Salvation is something the individual and Jesus sorts out between them.
To me, no MAN can ensure my afterlive in Heaven, but Me and My God.

I do not believe other people will go to hell, because of the religion they adhere to.
They will end up in paradise, or hell by their own conscience.
You see, God does not condemn us to hell, we do it by ourself.

I know I will be with God in eternity, and next to me will be many people from all sorts of beliefs, simply because they worshipped God with a sincere heart, even if they never knew Jesus, or was mislead by some false prophet or deceiving person for power or monitary gain.

I therefore feel sorry for those that lied to humankind about their false gods, and false religion they forced people into.
They had their share during their lives when they made it misrable to the rest, and they will pay deerly for eternity.

SA Huguenot said:

I think the viewpoint of a lot of people are that protestants believe only they go to heaven.
And I also left my church because of that thought.

Click to expand...

You shouldn't be without a congregation.
It's like a sheep without a flock.
It doesn't matter which congregation it might be, we are all deficient in some way.
The wolf attacks the lone sheep.

SA Huguenot said:

God does not condemn us to hell, we do it by ourself.

Click to expand...

I agree, and we need humility to appreciate truth.

SA Huguenot said:

I know I will be with God in eternity, and next to me will be many people from all sorts of beliefs, simply because they worshipped God with a sincere heart..

Click to expand...

Mmm .. sincerity is the most important thing of all.
However, I don't think any of us know for sure what will happen to us after we die. We rely on G-d's mercy.
There is not one of us who isn't tempted to sin.

You talk about "My God", whereas I talk about the God of each and every one of us. We just have different understandings.
Almighty God guides whomsoever He wills. He knows what we like and dislike. He knows our deepest secrets.

I took note on your point about "My God" and "the God of each and every one of us".
If I look from My point of view, I can not accept any other God but YHWH.
After I double checked, and re checked the Bible description of YHWH, I came to the conclusion that He is a Triune God.
If I look from your point of view, I will find that Allah is the ONE God, and the Trinity is polytheism.
If I go back to my referencepoint, I find the Trinity to be God with being a holy Body of light, a Holy Spirit and the Word or mind of YHWH.
To me it is not polytheism, but One God with a Mind and Spirit that can exit the existence of YHWH, and enter into creation.

Then again, If I were to take your viewpoint into perspective, I will look through the eyes of someone believing the Quran, and will have to reject the Trinity, and claim that Jesus can never be God!

Do you see our differences?
I believe in the Bible, and do not believe in the Quran. I condemn the version of the Islamic Jesus because it does not fit in with the Bible.
You believe in the Quran, but have to condemn the Biblical version of Jesus, because the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus in totallity.

Therefore, it is either the Quran, or the Bible.

Now, which will it be?

SA Huguenot said:

I believe in the Bible, and do not believe in the Quran. I condemn the version of the Islamic Jesus because it does not fit in with the Bible.
You believe in the Quran, but have to condemn the Biblical version of Jesus, because the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus in totallity.

Click to expand...

No. You say that I condemn the "Biblical version". I don't.
There are many Christians that don't believe that Jesus is part of a trinity. They believe in YHWH, as do I.
eg. Jehovah's witness .. Unitarian

What I condemn, is the doctrine that was enforced by the Roman Empire.
The so-called Arian Emperors did not mercilessly crush their fellow Christians with a different viewpoint.
We should not just believe that Jesus is Divine, we should accept the whole of history which shaped orthodox Christianity.

SA Huguenot said:

In Ezekiel God compares the Children of Israel with being harlots with Idolatory!
I think God had the right to compare them with harlots having sex with a donkey...
What a filthy thing to do when you deliberately curse YHWH, and practice the Ba'Allah idol!
They had a house of Ba;Allah where they practiced their Baal temple prostitution.
They had Male prostetutes who would first administer sex to women who would get married the next day or so.
All women had to partake to temple prostetution to Arstarte (Diana) once a year!
The Priests were Levites, God's tribe of sacred rites, who simply brought this religion into Israel.

Now, I have great respect to the version Ezekiel portrayed through YHWH's words, because if He did not make this comparison on these filthy priests and their Ba'Allah worship, we would never have known about God's hatred towards these Ba'Allah worshippers who used the Moon Cresent and star as their sign.

Secondly, Ezekiel is evidence that the scribes of the Bible NEVER thought to white wash the Bible, even though it contained this horrible description.

Nice to have the Word of God telling the Truth, isnt it?

Click to expand...

So you really think that God talks like that? You think God puts his prophets as drunkards and the daughters sluts? How could such a revered prophet of Allah, be made into a drunkard and have sex with his daughters by their own hand and then produce children from the sinful act and then find those in the genealogy of Jesus who didn't even have one?

In Islam, Allah's prophets are not humiliated in those types of situations. The prophets are all good. They would never be placed in that situation. It is really a shameful place in the Bible.

In the book of Ezekiel the words are disgusting to be attributed unto Allah.

I remember one person sent these words into the So. African I believe it was, government and they ended up banning that....not knowing it was excerpts from the Bible. It is that bad to attribute it to Allah.

God is above such indecencies to be attributed to him. Nothing like that at all is portrayed in the Quran because Allah DOES NOT TALK FILTH.

muhammad_isa said:

No. You say that I condemn the "Biblical version". I don't.
There are many Christians that don't believe that Jesus is part of a trinity. They believe in YHWH, as do I.
eg. Jehovah's witness .. Unitarian

What I condemn, is the doctrine that was enforced by the Roman Empire.
The so-called Arian Emperors did not mercilessly crush their fellow Christians with a different viewpoint.
We should not just believe that Jesus is Divine, we should accept the whole of history which shaped orthodox Christianity.

Click to expand...

Well, let me inform you about a small fact.
The Jehovah Witnesses are not Christians.

The definition of a Christian is a person who accepted Jesus Christ as hid God and saviour.

The same with sects such as the "Path of the Master".
and so many other religions that wants to be seen as Christians, but they do not accept Jesus as God.
Any religion that denies the divinity of Jesus, is the anti Christ.

Now, the Roman Emperor Constantine might have sponsered the council of Nicea, but it does not mean he enforced the divinity of Jesus.
It was the council of over 300 christian leaders who studied the new religion of Gnostism that denied the divinity of Christ.
this council of religious men who knew the Bible well, used the Bible to deternine that Jesus was indeed God as was believed for over 300 years by Christians who were killed in their millions by the Roman Caesars...wait for ti...
They were killed because they believed Jesus was God, and denied the Caesar as divine.

Whoever told you that the trinity was concocted by the Roman Catholic church in 325 (Nicea) and 381 (Constantinopel), is blatantly attempting to deceive you in thinking the Trinity was never known before this time.

The first of the early Church Fathers to be recorded using the word "Trinity" was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 170AD . He defines the Trinity as God, his Word (Logos) and his Wisdom (Sophia) in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation, following the early Christian practice of identifying the Holy Spirit as the Wisdom of God.

The first defense of the doctrine of the Trinity was by Tertullian, who was born around 150-160 AD, explicitly "defined" the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended his theology against Praxeas, although he noted that the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine.

The "Heavenly Trinity" joined to the "Earthly Trinity" through the Incarnation of the Son - The Heavenly and Earthly Trinities by Murillo
St. Justin and Clement of Alexandria used the Trinity in their doxologies and St. Basil likewise, in the evening lighting of lamps. Origen of Alexandria (AD 185–c. 253) has often been interpreted as Subordinationist, but some modern researchers have argued that Origen might have actually been anti-Subordinationist and that his own Trinitarian theology inspired the Trinitarian theology of the later Cappadocian Fathers.
And the Divinity of Jesus was already written on record externally form the NT since 150AD.

Do you see the problem if we have the Quran 600 years later telling me something else?

MyM said:

So you really think that God talks like that? You think God puts his prophets as drunkards and the daughters sluts? How could such a revered prophet of Allah, be made into a drunkard and have sex with his daughters by their own hand and then produce children from the sinful act and then find those in the genealogy of Jesus who didn't even have one?

In Islam, Allah's prophets are not humiliated in those types of situations. The prophets are all good. They would never be placed in that situation. It is really a shameful place in the Bible.

In the book of Ezekiel the words are disgusting to be attributed unto Allah.

I remember one person sent these words into the So. African I believe it was, government and they ended up banning that....not knowing it was excerpts from the Bible. It is that bad to attribute it to Allah.

God is above such indecencies to be attributed to him. Nothing like that at all is portrayed in the Quran because Allah DOES NOT TALK FILTH.

Click to expand...

Well, nothing was banned pal.
It is still in the Bible as a warning on how God sees people who practices Idolatory!
And remember, this god mentioned was "Ba Allah"
BaAl!
the ancient pagan god of the Midianites, Moabites and Amonites.
These were the ancient Arabic tribes in the East of Palestine.
in 1972 Yagel Yadin discovered a templke to Ba Allah with a cresent and star on his chest.
His name was Hu-Ba Allah!
the pagan name for the Creator is Ba Allah!
What is the name of the God in the Quran.
The one in the Bible is YHWH.
He is not an Idol.

Dogknox20 said:

Soapy You are wrong!
All Jews knew the story of Adam and Eve Satan being a snake! When John told them the Pharisees and Sadducees they are the children of the Viper they knew John was calling them Satan Children!

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Soapy did you see it? ..... that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,... (above)

Revelation 20:2
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Genesis 34
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Soapy that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,

Click to expand...

The fallen Angel who was given the TITLE of ‘Satan’, meaning, ‘Opposer [to truth]’, ‘Liar’, and ‘Devil’ (in another word), is REPRESENTED BY the SERPENT he used to do his underhanded Will in the garden of Eden.
It is necessary to represent Spiritual elements in a worldly, physical, created article in order that humanity may visualise what is being spoken of. Jesus used parables to tell of Heavenly things, Revelations uses Symbolic elements similarly.
Can you see that Revelations uses dangerous winged insects, and insects, and animals to represent spiritual war weapons (Hornets, Scorpions, etc). This is because no one of those times could ever conceive of aircraft, guns, nuclear weaponry, etc!! Put yourself in the shoe of a first century Jew and try telling people around you about these things: how? Tell them that there would be devices made of metals that would fly in the air spitting out stinging bullets (…what are you cackling about… you have a devil to say such unknown and impossible things!, they would say!) You would be stoned to death for being ridiculous! But represent those future developments by things they are already afraid of and know to be hurtful to mankind and the earth and, though the full implications may not be apparent, at least they can see the danger by their own own understanding / not that of a 22nd century mindset.