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I don't particularly want to sin...

ppp

ppp

Well-Known Member
KenS said:
Thou shalt not commit murder.... as far as I am concerned.... is from God.
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Non responsive. That is merely testimony.

KenS said:
Which of the ten commandments that Christians subscribe to has changed?
What part of marriage that Christians subscribe to has changed?
What part of abortion that Christians subscribe to has changes?

Yes, what we believe about speed limits has changed... but that isn't a commandment of God.
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I don't know which sect of Christianity you belong to.

Oh wait...how has Christianity changed? Sects of Christianity that disagree on doctrine.
 
Sand Dancer

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Evangelicalhumanist said:
This is, of course, in counterpoint the thread "I just want to sin!!"

I offer up this question to those believers who honestly think that, without God, everything is permitted. That is, if you really do believe that dictum ("without God, everything is permitted"), then you must also admit that if you did not believe in God, and follow what you believe to be God's commands, you would not know right from wrong.

Really? Is that really true?

Make a case for me, anyone who really thinks that.
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What I don't get is that they think that Christians don't sin. They are no more moral than anyone else and sometimes they are worse. Religion doesn't change your morals or personality, just your perspective. They just don't like that not everyone wants to convert. Religion is personal and no religion is a good fit for everyone.
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
loverofhumanity said:
There are over 1.7 billion good upright Muslims in the world whom you are trying to paint with the same brush. This kind of generalisation cannot be based upon anything but bias and prejudice because not 1.7 billion Muslims are terrorists but you are trying to smear their religion, which is a peaceful religion based upon what criminals have done.

You fail to point out that the majority of Muslims are peaceful upright people who are well wishers of mankind. The handful you refer to do not represent the Quran, nor Muhammad nor the Islamic world. It’s completely unjust not to accept the 1.7 billion as good people and only focus on a handful of criminals who represent no one but their selfish ambitions.
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Where did that poster do that??
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Eyes to See said:
The Bible has the transformative power to change lives. I have seen it many times over in people from all walks of life. It is God's word and thus applying its advice in your life will make you better no matter whom you are or where you are.

In today's world advice is ever changing. What was in fashion today is gone tomorrow. Yet God's word tells us exactly how to have happy family lives, better relations with our neighbors, and how to find real happiness finding a meaningful relationship with the living God Jehovah.

God tells us:

“I will give you insight and instruct you in the way you should go.
I will give you advice with my eye upon you."
-Psalm 32:8.

To answer your question as to why many people do not listen God or let his word shape their lives? Well, that is their choice. God does not force anyone to serve him or do what is right. He is not going to force them to do so any more than he is going to force you.

Jesus told us that the majority of people chose the broad and spacious road, the easy road, where the majority of all religions lead, that is to destruction:

"Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."-Matthew 7:13-14.

The way of the truth is not an easy way of life. The gate to the road is narrow, not a lot of people are going to find it or go in through it, and the road is cramped. Not many people are going to find it.

Remember I was telling you about freewill and how it was given us to show love, because an animal governed by instinct cannot show true love. When Jesus was on earth he empathized this fact when he was asked what was the greatest of all the commandments:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment."-Matthew 22:36-38.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. But what does it mean to love Jehovah, to really love him? John tells us:

"For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome."-1 John 5:3.

Most people when they learn what God's word teaches and what it requires of a person to have a relationship with the Creator decide not to. Most don't want to leave the vices they have, or perhaps they don't want to be ridiculed by others for serving the true God, or perhaps they are too focused on things of this world, gaining wealth, fame, power. There are many reasons people decide not to let God's word mold them.

Now Jesus said the second greatest commandment in the law is:

"The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’"-Matthew 22:39.

Scripture tells us that there is no law apart from love, and in the end the only law you really need is love. Because a person who uses their freewill correctly to love, love God, and love neighbor has no need for any other law. Laws in themselves are for lawless people.

"On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,  mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law."-Galatians 5:22-23.

Going back to the beginning, in the garden of Eden when humankind had perfection there was only one stipulation to the first human pair, Adam and Eve, and it was not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and bad.

It seems like a simple rule and it was. Things back then were much simpler as well. The tree and the rule given the first human pair represented God's right to rule, and humankind's willing to be obedient to him. Were they going to exercise their freewill to show God obedience, loyal love?

And that is what it really boils down to. Loyal love. That is not a common phrase in today's world. Yet God is a God not only of loyalty or of love, but of loyal love. And we, his children, have been given the capacity to display loyal love. Unfortunately the first human pair decided to abuse of their freewill and chose for themselves what was right and wrong. And that is why you are at where you are today. Confused, alienated, alone, without God. In the darkness.

The Bible reveals to us who was the real person behind the serpent who mislead Eve and got her to eat of the forbidden tree. The original serpent, Satan the Devil planted seeds of doubt in her mind as to God's motives, and she foolishly fell for it. He did so out of selfish longing for worship. Eve did not show loyal love to God, and afterward she showed her husband Adam what she had done, and he knew very well what he was doing but he also was disloyal, he did not cultivate real love for God.

Now the Bible tells us that the whole world is lying in Satan's power:

"The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."-1 John 5:19.

It tells us that Satan, the god of this system, has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so that the glorious good news about the Christ may not shine through and they be saved:

"Among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."-2 Corinthians 4:4.

It tells us that Satan and his wicked angels have been outsted from heaven and they are misleading the entire inhabited earth:

"So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth."-Revelation 12:9.

So that is why there are so many that do not obey the good news. Scripture tells us that Satan is transforming himself into an angel of light and his ministers act as ministers of righteousness:


"And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness."-2 Corinthians 11:14-15.

So it is of little surprise that people who are really evil and bad who claim to represent God and follow the Bible are really liars and hypocrites as you have mentioned. The last part of the scripture should be of note to you for it says:

"But their end will be according to their works."

And so by their works you will discern whether they are really from God or not.


This is the light of the world. Humankind is in darkness because Satan is the ruler of the world and he has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. There is a universal war being waged and we, you and me, and everyone else alive today were born smack dab in the middle of this war.

The Psalmist declared:

"Give thanks to Jehovah, for he is good; His loyal love endures forever."-Psalms 136:1.

Unlike disobiedent humans and angels who have disregarded showing love, and being loyal in love God will always show loyal love forever. And he impels us also to display loyal love to him and to others:

"This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘Judge with true justice, and deal with one another in loyal love and mercy."-Zechariah 7:9.

Not everyone will display loyal love. Because God does not force any of his free moral agents to do so. But he sets the divine pattern of love and he does expect us to follow it. It is your choice if you will or not. These words are true. And they are divine. Loyal love is not of human origin, and it is not a trait animals can show.

You have the choice to display loyal love to the Creator, and to your fellow humans. If you did so, and if everyone else did there would be no more racism, no more war, no more hatred. That is a divine command. It is beyond human origin.

And the Bible tells us the day is very near that only those who display loyal love will remain on earth. All the wicked and ungodly will be removed. And then there will be no more need of Jehovah's Witnesses to tell the people who Jehovah is for everyone will know him, from one end of the earth to the other:

“And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin.”-Jeremiah 31:34.

Jehovah's Witnesses have the distinguished honor of bearing the name of the living God. They dispel many of the lies that false religion has placed on his name. Out of their loyal love of Jehovah and of neighbor they declare the name of Jehovah and they tell others who he really is! Imagine if a dear friend you loved was slandered, would you not stand up for his name and defend it? People that teach that God condones bad, that he tortures people, that he is the cause of evil, these people are wicked and slander the name of a good and loving God.

God is not the cause of suffering:

"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone."-James 1:13.

Heed this word if you wish life:

"Know this, my beloved brothers: Everyone must be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger,  for man’s anger does not bring about God’s righteousness.  Therefore, put away all filthiness and every trace of badness, and accept with mildness the implanting of the word that is able to save you."-James 1:19-21.
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Do you have anything to offer that isn't just a wall of preaching material?
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
Eyes to See said:
*****


A belief may be wrong. But what I shared with you is a fact that is irrefutable.
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Thank you for providing an example for how theists can so convinced in their own beliefs that they will not acknowledge they might be mistaken. Your attitude here is exactly the same as the 9-11 hijackers. They too were absolutely certain their beliefs were fact. They refused to consider the possibility they might be mistaken. This is the danger that religion can cause on the minds of people who lack the humility to use their own moral sense, and can become agents for the sake of dogma.

What you offered is your interpretation of Bible texts that is an edit by the English in the 17th century. And you treat this as fact. Unless you are a God yourself you are a fallible mortal who is prone to error like anyone else.
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
loverofhumanity said:
In my humble opinion I believe what is most needed in this age is to build bridges between the different races, religions and nationalities and do everything in our power to reconcile our differences.

So whether it be Americans or Muslims I see good in the vast majority of my fellow humans.
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Many are good people. And many are bad people. The bad conform to norms for the most part, but can act in subtle ways that harm society and civilization, like denying climate change. Refusing to get vaccinated and wear a mask in public. These seem harmless at face value, but it illustrates a contempt for the social contract that we all rely on to help maintain order, civility, and progress. Much of this attitude is due to ignorance and belief. Religions do not counter ignorance and belief, and often help perpetuate this sort of "truth". So if you really wanted to help build unity the Baha'i would acknowledge that minimizing religious belief, dogma, ideological "truth", ego, etc. Baha'i are asking others to sacrifice but do nothing to lead the way. Sacrifice your religious dogma. Denounce the dogma, and promote unity through a unified mind of humanity and social contract.
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
loverofhumanity said:
Terrorists are a tiny minority who make ridiculous claims. We all agree they are criminals. They can claim what they want.
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You're a theist, and like many other theists you seem to assign meaning to your religious dictates. And like many other theists who assign meaning to their religious dictates they are enforced by the authority of your God, so not questionable by we mere mortals.

So when you acknowledge there are terrorist as bad people, and then mention 1.7 Muslims, I'm curious where you draw the line between good and bad. We are aware that some Muslim societies will stone a girl to death because she refuses to marry the man she was given to. Or dare love a man that she loves. To the society of Muslims this is moral and God"s law. Do you accept these people as good?

It's a tricky question because we judge these more traditional societies from a more advanced moral framework. But you are actively seeking global unity so you have to assess these people, and if you consider them as good, or as a people who need to adjust and change to the times.

If it is the latter, then what is your obligation to adjust and change?
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
Thirza Fallen said:
What I don't get is that they think that Christians don't sin. They are no more moral than anyone else and sometimes they are worse. Religion doesn't change your morals or personality, just your perspective. They just don't like that not everyone wants to convert. Religion is personal and no religion is a good fit for everyone.
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When you have God on your side it is amazing what you let yourself get away with.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Revoltingest said:
I want to sin....in the same way I want to meet Voldemort.
Id est, not at all....not even possible.
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I believe as Paul said sin comes by the law. He was referring to the law of Moses of course. The thing is this there are going to be things you don't want to do because your culture teaches you not to do them and there are laws reflecting that culture. For instance you would not wish to go through a stop sing without stopping.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
F1fan said:
So the 9-11 hijackers were moral since they were following God's commands. The people who fought back on Flight 93 were sinners since they defied God's plan.

Of course that does not mean that societies values cannot be corrupted, or that a person cannot sear their conscience as with a branding iron so that it may become hardened to sin. Or that a person's conscience without the guide of God's word is going to be a reliable guide to what is right and wrong all the time.
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How does a fallible human, like yourself, know when some idea is moral or not? And if their subjective interpretation of the bible is morally reliable? Give us the objective test in reality that you use.[/QUOTE]

I believe that is what Jesus is for. The perpetrators of 911 did not have Jesus as Lord and Savior. At least one of the passengers of flight 93 did.
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
Muffled said:
I believe that is what Jesus is for. The perpetrators of 911 did not have Jesus as Lord and Savior. At least one of the passengers of flight 93 did.
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But the Nazis had Jesus (as they were Lutheran and Catholic), and killed over 6 million Jews, vastly more than the 9-11 hijackers.

So perhaps your perspective is biased to protect your own alliance with them as a Christian? Or do you think Nazis are in heaven?
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Muffled said:
I believe as Paul said sin comes by the law. He was referring to the law of Moses of course. The thing is this there are going to be things you don't want to do because your culture teaches you not to do them and there are laws reflecting that culture. For instance you would not wish to go through a stop sing without stopping.
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I make a distinction between sin, eg, not holding
the Sabbath holy, & crime, eg, murder.
 
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