Baha'i and Messengers

Trailblazer · Jan 19, 2022

F1fan said:
You present poor and weak evidence.

Poor and weak to you, but that does not means it is poor or weak. That is just your subjective opinion of the evidence. I have a different subjective opinion of the evidence.

F1fan said:
You may have emotional reasons to apply low standards of evidence.

You could not be more wrong. I only believe because of the evidence not because I want to.
It'd be much easier to be an atheist.

Trailblazer · Jan 19, 2022

It Aint Necessarily So said:
No, it doesn't, but then it's been established that you don't know what constitutes supporting evidence for an idea.

Yes it does, but then it's been established that you don't know what constitutes supporting evidence for a Messenger of God.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 19, 2022

It Aint Necessarily So said:
The secular humanists are way ahead of you, probably because they aren't weighed down in faith and religion. No religion can equal the values of humanism in terms of promoting love, acceptance, and unity. Do you think you can embrace humanist values? Reason would help you to rid yourself of the contempt you have for atheists. I realize that you think your patronization of and condescension to secular humanists is love, but it's not.

Firstly no one knows another heart, so I find is wise to show naught but Love. That does not mean our views have to align.

This passage is applicable to what is quoted above.

"This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded"

That means to me God's guidance. So it is saying that no movement, that is not based on God's advice, can or will find unity of humanity.

Regards Tony

lukethethird · Jan 19, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Firstly no one knows another heart, so I find is wise to show naught but Love. That does not mean our views have to align.

This passage is applicable to what is quoted above.

"This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded"

That means to me God's guidance. So it is saying that no movement, that is not based on God's advice, can or will find unity of humanity.

Regards Tony

well, we can see how that has worked out.

Sundance · Jan 19, 2022

I find it confusing that there’s an (almost rabid) insistence on testing the validity of what are essentially metaphysical or conceptual claims using empirical means.

ppp · Jan 19, 2022

Trailblazer said:
My point was that the accusers should stop accusing Baha'is of not having any evidence because we have done our homework and our beliefs are based upon good evidence and research.

All you are saying is that they should believe you because you say they should believe you. Again, why should your "accusers" believe that your "have done [your] homework and [your] beliefs are based upon good evidence and research"?

Trailblazer · Jan 19, 2022

Renki said:
I find it confusing that there’s an (almost rabid) insistence on testing the validity of what are essentially metaphysical or conceptual claims using empirical means.

I find it illogical.

Trailblazer · Jan 19, 2022

Policy said:
All you are saying is that they should believe you because you say they should believe you.
Again, why should your "accusers" believe that your "have done [your] homework and [your] beliefs are based upon good evidence and research"?

You should believe us because that is what we say we have done. You might not think our evidence is good but that is a different discussion.
If you told me you had done x or y I would believe you.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 19, 2022

lukethethird said:
well, we can see how that has worked out.

That is life and our choices.

It boils down to the question do we want unity? If so how can we achieve it?

From a Baha'i perspective there is a solid path we need to follow, if there is another path, who is offering it as much as the Baha'i are. We are genuine about unity, we have offered to help with the choices that have to be made.

Here is the 1985 peace statement.

The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice

This is a 2019 letter to the Baha'i World about the peace process.

18 January 2019 – To the Bahá’ís of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library

There are many peace statement that offer the paths to unity.

We work with all others with the same goals.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jan 19, 2022

Policy said:
All you are saying is that they should believe you because you say they should believe you. Again, why should your "accusers" believe that your "have done [your] homework and [your] beliefs are based upon good evidence and research"?

They should not, they should search for themselves.

Regards Tony

ppp · Jan 19, 2022

Trailblazer said:
You should believe us because that is what we say we have done.

Your word is a good enough to accept that you got a pet puppy. It is not good enough to accept that you got a pet giraffe, let alone that you confirmed the supernatural.

Trailblazer said:
If you told me you had done x or y I would believe you.

That is certainly a choice that is open for you to make.

CG Didymus · Jan 19, 2022

loverofhumanity said:
The spiritual laws are eternal and never become outdated. But things like stoning, crucifixion and cutting off of hands, social laws, do become outdated and need to be replaced from age to age with more humanitarian laws.

And were those really decreed from God? And here's a couple of the new punishments for this new glorious age of oneness and peace and harmony? And what about white-collar criminals? Give them a mark on the forehead also?

The mark to be placed on the thief’s forehead serves the purpose of warning people of his proclivities.
Bahā’u’llāh announces that arsons who destroy a house are to be burned alive or alternatively they can be imprisoned for life.

CG Didymus · Jan 19, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Yet my honest answer is that God knows and has told us how creation started, it has always been, no beginning and no end. Yet our finite mind is unable to fathom the infinite.

How many creation myths are there? The main one is in the Bible. But God didn't give the writer of Genesis an honest answer.

ACEofALLaces · Jan 19, 2022

Trailblazer said:
Poor and weak to you, but that does not means it is poor or weak. That is just your subjective opinion of the evidence. I have a different subjective opinion of the evidence.

That is actually quite funny........you chastise the other poster on THEIR "subjective opinion", and then turn right around and offer YOUR "subjective opinion", as though IT is somehow BETTER than his!
IOW that is like saying MY version of having been abducted by Martians, is NOT the same are YOUR version of how YOU were abducted by Martians. All the while NEITHER of you can actually offer any supporting evidence which WOULD hold up under some rigorous scrutiny.

CG Didymus · Jan 19, 2022

loverofhumanity said:
God knows all and He passes His knowledge to us through His Manifestations. I put my trust in His knowledge.

Prior to the Baha'i Faith and Islam, what knowledge from God is dependable? That you'd put your trust in? Theoretically, a "true" seeker of God, if they lived long enough, would have changed religions with each new "manifestation." But then, which sect of the new religion would they follow? The beliefs of all these religions, plus the variations between the sects within each religion, are very different. Baha'is explain it away by saying the "original" teaching were consistent. But we don't know that. All we have is the Scriptures that are not consistent between the various religions. If all we had to go on was those Scriptures, why would anyone think that they all came from a one true God?

ACEofALLaces · Jan 19, 2022

CG Didymus said:
How many creation myths are there? The main one is in the Bible. But God didn't give the writer of Genesis an honest answer.

Jeez Loiuze, but EVERY religion on this planet seems to have its own "creation myth", don't they? And just WHY is the one in your bible, considered to be the MAIN ONE?

Vinayaka · Jan 19, 2022

CG Didymus said:
And were those really decreed from God? And here's a couple of the new punishments for this new glorious are of oneness and peace and harmony? And what about white-collar criminals? Give them a mark on the forehead also?

The mark to be placed on the thief’s forehead serves the purpose of warning people of his proclivities.
Bahā’u’llāh announces that arsons who destroy a house are to be burned alive or alternatively they can be imprisoned for life.

Progression, Man, progression.

CG Didymus · Jan 19, 2022

Renki said:
Indeed, they don’t.

And they are supposedly the words of Jesus.

Mark 16:14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

ppp · Jan 19, 2022

Renki said:
I find it confusing that there’s an (almost rabid) insistence on testing the validity of what are essentially metaphysical or conceptual claims using empirical means.

Probably because those metaphysical and conceptual claims often entail material action, including, but not limited to social censure, discrimination, legal sanctions, an vigilante "justice". It doesn't seem too unreasonable to insist on justification, all things considered. Not even if the insistence is...ahem...rabid.

Trailblazer · Jan 19, 2022

Policy said:
Your word is a good enough to accept that you got a pet puppy. It is not good enough to accept that you got a pet giraffe, let alone that you confirmed the supernatural.

I never said that you should believe that we have confirmed the supernatural.
I only said that we should be taken at our word that we have done our due diligence.
That does not mean you have to agree with what we concluded after we did our due diligence.

Baha'i and Messengers

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

unknown member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

Active Member

devotee

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member