Baha'i and Messengers

loverofhumanity · Jan 18, 2022

CG Didymus said:
And I've look at some of them and found problems with all of them. Like the Three Woes are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? I don't see it in the context.

Woes to the priests and clergy who want to hold onto their power forever. Every prophecy has a context. In this one the powers that be view the Prophets as their greatest woe or calamity and that is proven by their cruel opposition,

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

F1fan said:
You say facts are important but then don't offer sufficient facts to present an objective and rational conclusion for what you believe.

You admit there are no facts for a God, but then you say you rely on what Messengers claim. What makes them correct? What facts are there that these people are authentic and we can just take their word for it?

My brother, the 7th Day Adventist, can show you "facts', geological facts that the Earth is not billions of years old and that there was a world-wide flood. At they are trying. And, ironically, I doubt Baha'is would even beliefs their "facts." And, since Baha'is believe in evolution, they don't believe in "fact" of how the Bible says that God created humans and animals.

Vinayaka · Jan 18, 2022

CG Didymus said:
Here's what I found...

When Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned in the Síyáh-Chál, He had a series of visions which revealed to Him that He was the Promised One of all ages. In his vision, a Maid of Heaven appeared in front of Him, pointed at His head, saying: By God, This is indeed the Beloved of the universe, but ye do not understand!

Which is interesting... Didn't he always know he was the guy? And who knows how many "Gods" and "maids of heaven" are out there? Could this God have told him that he was the only God, but he wasn't? Then in the Bible it is "The angel of the Lord" or Michael or some archangel, although I would prefer the maid of heaven.

This is right out of any psychiatric book about delusions of grandeur. Some event ... (NDE, trauma, severe illness, psychedelics, bipolar disorder) causes the individual to perceive himself as God, or simply smarter than anyone else he has ever met. These days there are many treatments for it. In those days it wasn't heard of. We've had 3 or 4 suffering individuals pass by this very forum. There is never much more than the self-declaration. No miracles, no proof of any special abilities ... only the declaration.

What puzzles me is why some of the sufferers managed to convince a few others, while others were largely unsuccessful, and were written off as crazy, or assisted by family. Of course research into mental health has come a long long way in the last 60 years or so.

I've read papers on grandiose delusions (to help understand how to deal with a family member) so I'd recommend that for anyone wishing tp pursue this aspect further. (Real independent investigation)

Grandiose delusions: a review and theoretical integration of cognitive and affective perspectives - PubMed

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

loverofhumanity said:
Thats untenable. The majority of the world’s people are intelligent people. And they believe in God and prayer etc.

But they believe in different Gods. Again, like the Aztec Gods. They believed in them and prayed to them, then, as commanded by their Gods, they sacrificed people to their Gods. No doubt smart people. Luckily, they were conquered by the Spanish that brought a much better God and religion to them, the Roman Catholic Church.

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

loverofhumanity said:
Evolution is a fact of life. God always existed. Cause and effect applies to that which is created but not God Who is eternal.

In the evolution of animals to humans, did a male and female evolve into humans at the same time and same place? And then made more humans? Or were there all of a sudden, several animals whose kids were humans and no longer the animal? And is evolution still going on? Will some animals change into some new species of animal?

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
The core virtues are never outdated.

Abdul'baha always offered thay no one has to change their religion, they just have to practice the core values taught in all God given Faiths, as that is where we will find our unity.

That could be the issue, if one does not believe God gave us those core values. That also does no matter if one also wishes to practice those values for the good of all humanity.

Regards Tony

So, as long as the practice the core values of their religion they can keep believing all the wrong interpretations and beliefs of their religion? I would hope not. If the Baha'i Faith is true, then we all should come to see that it is true. If not, what? We're still going to have thousands of different sects of the old religions?

loverofhumanity · Jan 18, 2022

CG Didymus said:
Just give me a few specific quotes about Krishna and Hinduism, preferably from Baha'u'llah. Thanks.

Just type in Hindu to search the document in the link and it will bring up references to Hinduism by Baha’u’llah as they are fairly large quotes. Krishna is mentioned by Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

loverofhumanity said:
Woes to the priests and clergy who want to hold onto their power forever. Every prophecy has a context. In this one the powers that be view the Prophets as their greatest woe or calamity and that is proven by their cruel opposition,

Not all are "priests" and "clergy" wanting to hold onto their power. Some are preachers and teachers of what they believe is the truth based on their religion and their Holy Books. Every religion has their good spiritual teachers and their bad ones. But the word "Woe" is used over a hundred times in the Bible. It does not mean a "manifestation". It is something bad is going to happen. And before and after the Three Woes, there was nothing but bad stuff happening. Later in Revelation then God intervenes. And a guy on a white horse comes down with a new name. Maybe, maybe that is Baha'u'llah.

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

Vinayaka said:
This is right out of any psychiatric book about delusions of grandeur. Some event ... (NDE, trauma, severe illness, psychedelics, bipolar disorder) causes the individual to perceive himself as God, or simply smarter than anyone else he has ever met. These days there are many treatments for it. In those days it wasn't heard of. We've had 3 or 4 suffering individuals pass by this very forum. There is never much more than the self-declaration. No miracles, no proof of any special abilities ... only the declaration.

What puzzles me is why some of the sufferers managed to convince a few others, while others were largely unsuccessful, and were written off as crazy, or assisted by family. Of course research into mental health has come a long long way in the last 60 years or so.

I've read papers on grandiose delusions (to help understand how to deal with a family member) so I'd recommend that for anyone wishing tp pursue this aspect further. (Real independent investigation)

Grandiose delusions: a review and theoretical integration of cognitive and affective perspectives - PubMed

The Sikhs are interesting, because they aren't Muslim, and they aren't Hindu. So, why isn't their founder not a manifestation? Other than he never claimed to be. But as far as I can tell neither did Abraham or Moses.

Then there is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He did claim to be the Mahdi but didn't start a new religion. It's fascinating to me how something so simple like there is one God and he sent a few messengers, and all religions came from him, got this complicated. And then finally, with one of his messengers, he uncomplicates everything and says, "Forget what I told you before. Listen to this messenger. He's the real deal and will tell you straight."

loverofhumanity · Jan 18, 2022

CG Didymus said:
But it's gonna take a Baha'i, maybe you, that breaks the barrier and is able to show some love to some Atheists. Too easy to just say it. You were the first Baha'i I met here on the forum that humbled himself. And that was impressive. And that was putting your spiritual beliefs into practice.

Thanks CG. I really wish I were able to do what you say.

I was once a very strong atheist but I was still human. I still needed love and kindness. I was just sick and tired of religion bragging about it having all the answers yet it was so divided against itself. So hypocritical. I can’t blame people from turning away from religion if all it does is start wars and create hatred and prejudice.

Are atheists really against truth! No definitely not. They are opposed to hypocrisy and superstition. The problem is that they are so disillusioned with religion they end up throwing out the baby with the dirty bath water. But can you blame them? They are just sick of it all.

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. (Abdul-Baha)

So all atheists are guilty of is turning away from hypocrisy, disunity, hatred, dislike and division. What then does that make atheists? Awesome people who believe in goodness and justice. And disbelief in God is because religions have become so irreligious that they have given God a bad name.

It will take centuries if ever, for humanity to trust religion again. It’s up to religionists of today to stop treating everyone as unsaved or that we are better. That’s a test for us.

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
There is no predudices, they are all Loved.

Faith in God encompasses the athiest choice, it is the virtues that will unite us in our diversity.

Regards Tony

Again, it doesn't sound like love is what is being given. Do you love them and respect them for who they are and what they believe? Knowing they probably will not return the love? You know they are extremely intelligent people and sound like they know lots of things about religion. Why did they come to reject it? Why not just believe? Why do they demand objective proof? Knowing what some religious people believe, I think they are correct in asking for proof. Which, if any, religion is correct when they all make similar claims but believe very different things?

Sundance · Jan 18, 2022

CG Didymus said:
Anyway the guy that started the snake handling sect of Christianity did base his inspiration from the NT.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

And nobody's going to "really" study. In one post, I was referred to a book called the Dawn Breakers by a Baha'i. When I saw how long it was, I didn't even read one page. A few quotes along with a short summary is going to have to do. You were the first and only Baha'i that went in depth with my questions about Hinduism and the Baha'i Faith. Most responses were non-answers. They didn't know and didn't seem to care to know. When I go online, I'll look at Some Answered Questions or the articles at the Baha'i.Org site.

I see, but as far as snake-handling is concerned, there’s a certain reason why even the vast majority of Christians do not practice it.

When I said really study, I don’t mean some of sort heavy-handed diving into the minutiae of Bahá’í theology. I mean exactly you refer to, read the relevant Writings on the issues for themselves, make use of the broader information and scholarship on the topic at hand, practice discernment and come to your own level-headed understanding of it.

As for Hinduism, I try to give any kind of understanding of it only from one Bahá’í perspective, not from anything I know in depth. That’s why we’re told to learn about and study other religions, so that we engage properly with them. We study our own so that we have a well-informed foundation for our perspectives.

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

loverofhumanity said:
Thanks CG. I really wish I were able to do what you say.

I was once a very strong atheist but I was still human. I still needed love and kindness. I was just sick and tired of religion bragging about it having all the answers yet it was so divided against itself. So hypocritical. I can’t blame people from turning away from religion if all it does is start wars and create hatred and prejudice.

Are atheists really against truth! No definitely not. They are opposed to hypocrisy and superstition. The problem is that they are so disillusioned with religion they end up throwing out the baby with the dirty bath water. But can you blame them? They are just sick of it all.

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. (Abdul-Baha)

So all atheists are guilty of is turning away from hypocrisy, disunity, hatred, dislike and division. What then does that make atheists? Awesome people who believe in goodness and justice. And disbelief in God is because religions have become so irreligious that they have given God a bad name.

It will take centuries if ever, for humanity to trust religion again. It’s up to religionists of today to stop treating everyone as unsaved or that we are better. That’s a test for us.

You still the man.

F1fan · Jan 18, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
This is part of my faith, which has discussed this topic in great detail, I see science can only confirm the connection.

Faith tends to be a personal choice and is irrelevant to anyone else. This isn't fellowship and you aren't a guru, we aren't going to kiss your feet. You post untrue things, and there are many smart and well educated members who will pick apart such posts. If you want to appeal to smart thinkers you're going to have to develop a better strategy.

Create an argument that is consist with facts, and get your science right. You then post text from a religious book that just more non-factual claims. Reading this just sounds like made up nonsense, there are no facts. We aren't going to accept it as true just because you do.

"From the beginning of his [Man’s] formation, the mind and the spirit existed, but they were hidden and appeared only later. In the world of the womb, too, the mind and the spirit exist in the embryo but are concealed and appear only afterwards. It is even as the seed: The tree exists within it but is hidden and concealed; when the seed grows and develops, the tree appears in its fullness. In like manner, the growth and development of all beings proceeds by gradual degrees. This is the universal and divinely ordained law and the natural order." Abdul'baha.Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, p. 228-9

The rational soul—the human spirit—did not descend into this body or subsist through it to begin with, that it should require some substance to depend upon after the constituent parts of the body have decomposed. On the contrary, the rational soul is the substance upon which the body depends. The rational soul is endowed from the beginning with individuality; it does not acquire it through the intermediary of the body. At most, what can be said is that the individuality and identity of the rational soul may be strengthened in this world, and that the soul may either progress and attain to the degrees of perfection or remain in the lowest abyss of ignorance and be veiled from and deprived of beholding the signs of God. – Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, p. 277.

Again this is a text that doesn't use fact-based terms. The soul? Not known to exist. The spirit? What does that mean? Then the "rational soul"? That is even less coherent.

Thinkers ask good faith questions and the answers are just more dogma. It's why we throw it out. Truth will have real world answers, not mumbo jumbo.

F1fan · Jan 18, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
This is part of my faith, which has discussed this topic in great detail, I see science can only confirm the connection.

Faith tends to be a personal choice and is irrelevant to anyone else. This isn't fellowship and you aren't a guru, we aren't going to kiss your feet. You post untrue things, and there are many smart and well educated members who will pick apart such posts. If you want to appeal to smart thinkers you're going to have to develop a better strategy.

Create an argument that is consist with facts, and get your science right. You then post text from a religious book that just more non-factual claims. Reading this just sounds like made up nonsense, there are no facts. We aren't going to accept it as true just because you do.

"From the beginning of his [Man’s] formation, the mind and the spirit existed, but they were hidden and appeared only later. In the world of the womb, too, the mind and the spirit exist in the embryo but are concealed and appear only afterwards. It is even as the seed: The tree exists within it but is hidden and concealed; when the seed grows and develops, the tree appears in its fullness. In like manner, the growth and development of all beings proceeds by gradual degrees. This is the universal and divinely ordained law and the natural order." Abdul'baha.Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, p. 228-9

The rational soul—the human spirit—did not descend into this body or subsist through it to begin with, that it should require some substance to depend upon after the constituent parts of the body have decomposed. On the contrary, the rational soul is the substance upon which the body depends. The rational soul is endowed from the beginning with individuality; it does not acquire it through the intermediary of the body. At most, what can be said is that the individuality and identity of the rational soul may be strengthened in this world, and that the soul may either progress and attain to the degrees of perfection or remain in the lowest abyss of ignorance and be veiled from and deprived of beholding the signs of God. – Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, p. 277.

Again this is a text that doesn't use fact-based terms. The soul? Not known to exist. The spirit? What does that mean? Then the "rational soul"? That is even less coherent.

Thinkers ask good faith questions and the answers are just more dogma. It's why we throw it out. Truth will have real world answers, not mumbo jumbo.

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

Renki said:
I see, but as far as snake-handling is concerned, there’s a certain reason why even the vast majority of Christians do not practice it.

What's interesting is that even Christians who say they believe the Bible literally, don't believe those verses literally.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 18, 2022

CG Didymus said:
So, as long as the practice the core values of their religion they can keep believing all the wrong interpretations and beliefs of their religion? I would hope not. If the Baha'i Faith is true, then we all should come to see that it is true. If not, what? We're still going to have thousands of different sects of the old religions?

Abdul'baha was wise, he knew humanity would not immediately embrace the Message given by Baha'u'llah, what the urgent need was, was for people started thinking about embracing all humanity and eliminating predudices, all his talks informed people that is why Baha'u'llah came, the unity of humanity.

It has now been 100 years since Abdul'baha passed and yet humanity is still struggling to find unity, the Baha'i cqn offer the model of a global family.

Therin lays a thought.

Regards Tony

loverofhumanity · Jan 18, 2022

CG Didymus said:
Not all are "priests" and "clergy" wanting to hold onto their power. Some are preachers and teachers of what they believe is the truth based on their religion and their Holy Books. Every religion has their good spiritual teachers and their bad ones. But the word "Woe" is used over a hundred times in the Bible. It does not mean a "manifestation". It is something bad is going to happen. And before and after the Three Woes, there was nothing but bad stuff happening. Later in Revelation then God intervenes. And a guy on a white horse comes down with a new name. Maybe, maybe that is Baha'u'llah.

Yes not only the priests but the traditions also are challenged and people are confronted with change which is out of their comfort zone so it is as a test, a woe and they oppose it. Take today. World peace may depend upon world unity but after such tragic history humanity is extremely reluctant to put its trust in a world parliament or government so again, it’s a woe, a great test for humanity.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 18, 2022

F1fan said:
Faith tends to be a personal choice and is irrelevant to anyone else. This isn't fellowship and you aren't a guru, we aren't going to kiss your feet. You post untrue things, and there are many smart and well educated members who will pick apart such posts. If you want to appeal to smart thinkers you're going to have to develop a better strategy.

Create an argument that is consist with facts, and get your science right. You then post text from a religious book that just more non-factual claims. Reading this just sounds like made up nonsense, there are no facts. We aren't going to accept it as true just because you do.

"From the beginning of his [Man’s] formation, the mind and the spirit existed, but they were hidden and appeared only later. In the world of the womb, too, the mind and the spirit exist in the embryo but are concealed and appear only afterwards. It is even as the seed: The tree exists within it but is hidden and concealed; when the seed grows and develops, the tree appears in its fullness. In like manner, the growth and development of all beings proceeds by gradual degrees. This is the universal and divinely ordained law and the natural order." Abdul'baha.Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, p. 228-9

Again this is a text that doesn't use fact-based terms. The soul? Not known to exist. The spirit? What does that mean? Then the "rational soul"? That is even less coherent.

Thinkers ask good faith questions and the answers are just more dogma. It's why we throw it out. Truth will have real world answers, not mumbo jumbo.

If it is your choice, throw it all out.

I am happy to leave it at that.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Jan 18, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Abdul'baha was wise, he knew humanity would not immediately embrace the Message given by Baha'u'llah, what the urgent need was, was for people started thinking about embracing all humanity and eliminating predudices, all his talks informed people that is why Baha'u'llah came, the unity of humanity.

It has now been 100 years since Abdul'baha passed and yet humanity is still struggling to find unity, the Baha'i cqn offer the model of a global family.

Therin lays a thought.

Regards Tony

Beyond prejudices, you give them a chance. You listen to what they believe and see how they act and treat others, and it's still hard not to dislike some people. Which reminds of the Abdul Baha quote about people with only one good quality and several bad ones. I think that's the test here. We all seem to be focusing on our differences and neglecting what we have in common.

Unfortunately, because the Baha'i Faith is a religion and has all sorts of beliefs and Baha'is are told to teach it, there's not much beyond we are human that we have in common. So, start there? And then how soon before "God" comes into the conversation?

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