Believers should not feel intimidated by so called experts on religion

F1fan said:

So you acknowledge that how a theist "understands" their religion can be faulty and in severe contradiction to what is generally considered true about it, yes?

Click to expand...

In the beginning when a person start to practice a spiritual teaching they have ved little understanding and wisdom about it at all, then the more they practice and study, the more wisdom arise within them. So their understanding get better and better. But if they only study the teaching/text and not practice it at the same time, their understanding will not get very high and little wisdom arise

F1fan said:

So truth, faith, and belief is arbitrary, and what a believer believes can be faulty. How does this happen if there is a spiritual method, and sense, and path that supposedly guides these people? How reliable can any theist claim guidance to be?

Click to expand...

To gain spiritual wisdom take many years of practice, it is not enough to just read the words in a book, and then think "now I know what it means"

Link said:

We can teach religion, but to claim expertise on it and to claim higher knowledge of it then regular people, this shouldn't be done in my view. We should stay humble and not create divisions. Everyone contribute what they know, no one has to be a complete expert, we have Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) teachings, everyone can bring proof and contirbute.

The whole "this person knows most" has to stop.

Click to expand...

My point is, as you said there are different views on what Islam is, Sunni.. etc. And I assume that even within these different ones, not everyone would agree with what Taliban is doing, what ISIS is doing, so all these Muslims are "supporting" different views of what they believe is correct and there is all these teachers, including parents I assume could be called teachers to their children, teaching others how to be a "true" Muslim according to whatever they themselves believe. My point being, that the system or what to call it, might be pretty broken, especially if it is as you say, that the Quran state that you shouldn't teach others what it says as if we were experts, because it seems that everyone with such believe claim to be an expert. Like you follow Islam and have tagged yourself as a Twelve seeker, don't know if that is something special within Islam or not, but I assume you disagree with Taliban or ISIS in regards to their view on Islam, so for you to be able to do that, doesn't you have to "claim" to know more than their teachers do about Islam and thereby you yourself become sort of a self proclaimed expert, even if that is not your intention?

Don't know if what I say makes sense?

Seeker of White Light said:

They have a totally different understanding of the teaching than many Muslims. Their actions of killing, making war is wrong in my understanding yes.
They interpret the teaching in an extreme way.

Click to expand...

So they are not experts according to you? Do you consider Bahai experts in the Quran, just wondering?

Nimos said:

So they are not experts according to you? Do you consider Bahai experts in the Quran, just wondering?

Click to expand...

I do not believe any human today is an expert on the teaching. Each person has their current understanding that by practice of the teaching could become bettet/deeper understanding. But to claim to be an expert? No, because there is always more to realise in the teaching and practice.

Nimos said:

My point is, as you said there are different views on what Islam is, Sunni.. etc. And I assume that even within these different ones, not everyone would agree with what Taliban is doing, what ISIS is doing, so all these Muslims are "supporting" different views of what they believe is correct and there is all these teachers, including parents I assume could be called teachers to their children, teaching others how to be a "true" Muslim according to whatever they themselves believe. My point being, that the system or what to call it, might be pretty broken, especially if it is as you say, that the Quran state that you shouldn't teach others what it says as if we were experts, because it seems that everyone with such believe claim to be an expert. Like you follow Islam and have tagged yourself as a Twelve seeker, don't know if that is something special within Islam or not, but I assume you disagree with Taliban or ISIS in regards to their view on Islam, so for you to be able to do that, doesn't you have to "claim" to know more than their teachers do about Islam and thereby you yourself become sort of a self proclaimed expert, even if that is not your intention?

Don't know if what I say makes sense?

Click to expand...

You have a good point. There is long response and short response. The short response is we are to rely only on God and Ahlulbayt (a) and believers are to discuss with another their teachings. Discussing shouldn't be a type to impose but enlighten. But even then, there is the saying "the people were once the cure and now they've become the disease".

This is how knowledge in humanity is layered. Everyone mixes truth and falsehood (almost everyone), and so you can learn truth from anyone but shouldn't rely on anyone but God's guidance.

I can't tell Taliban to stop their interpretation because I know Islam better then them and they have to listen to me. But I can prove things I know from Islam by showing insights and proving what I know from Quran.

However, if I take that too far, and start saying to rely on me for everything in Islam, that's too far. Different humans understand different things from Quran. We all can contribute in knowledge, but must not claim to represent God and his Messengers (a) and try to put on higher level then others in terms of purity and righteousness status in reputation.

Seeker of White Light said:

An expert has an opinion, thats all.

Click to expand...

This discussion is also relevant to "Left-Hand Path" religion, which has no shortage of self-proclaimed "magi" and "high priests".

Some opinions may be better informed through experience (occasionally supported by various titles or degrees) but ultimately your own opinion is the only one that really matters.

Seeker of White Light said:

But to claim to be an expert? No, because there is always more to realise in the teaching and practice.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with you..
People have their favorite "experts" to follow .. but they should think for themselves as well, and not just blindly follow. Nobody is G-d, after all.

Onyx said:

This discussion is also relevant to "Left-Hand Path" religion, which has no shortage of self-proclaimed "magi" and "high priests".

Some opinions may be better informed through experience (occasionally supported by various titles or degrees) but ultimately your own opinion is the only one that really matters.

Click to expand...

I am happy you come in to this discussion with understanding of the left hand path too

Seeker of White Light said:

To gain spiritual wisdom take many years of practice, it is not enough to just read the words in a book, and then think "now I know what it means"

Click to expand...

Wisdom requires an ability to discern true from false, and real from imaginary. How do you practice this set of skills?

Do you think a person who has spent years of religious practice and calls for violence against others to be a wise person?

Seeker of White Light said:

I do not believe any human today is an expert on the teaching. Each person has their current understanding that by practice of the teaching could become bettet/deeper understanding. But to claim to be an expert? No, because there is always more to realise in the teaching and practice.

Click to expand...

Let me ask in another way then, could a Bahai have an understanding of the Quran? Could a Christian? Could an agnostic? Could an atheist?

Or in another way, why do you have a Sufism teacher and not a Bahai teacher?

muhammad_isa said:

I totally agree with you..
People have their favorite "experts" to follow .. but they should think for themselves as well, and not just blindly follow. Nobody is G-d, after all.

Click to expand...

So if a person just claims to be an "expert" but fails to demonstrate any credentials and expertise on a subject, you should reject them? Or if you just happen to agree with them ideologically, then it is ok to accept them?

Tell us what qualifications you demand for an authentic expert. if you have one.

Link said:

This is how knowledge in humanity is layered. Everyone mixes truth and falsehood (almost everyone), and so you can learn truth from anyone but shouldn't rely on anyone but God's guidance.

Click to expand...

But isn't the discussion or differences in fact what God guidance or wisdom tell us? Meaning that Taliban think that they do what God wants, the ISIS have their view, you have yours and so does everyone else.

So how would one settle that? Meaning what is God's guidance actually and who is right?

Link said:

I can't tell Taliban to stop their interpretation because I know Islam better then them and they have to listen to me. But I can prove things I know from Islam by showing insights and proving what I know from Quran.

Click to expand...

But wouldn't you expect their teachers to be able to point to the Quran and tell you where you are wrong? Because it seems weird how Taliban is capable of fooling so many Muslims if they all know that they are wrong?

F1fan said:

Wisdom requires an ability to discern true from false, and real from imaginary. How do you practice this set of skills?

Do you think a person who has spent years of religious practice and calls for violence against others to be a wise person?

Click to expand...

That is all what spiritual practice is about, to unveil the truth. Not to believe "human world" as the truth.

If a practitioner for years of spiritual practice and then calls for voilence out of the blue, is to me not a wise person.
If the person say "now it is time to protect your self" that can be wise, but to do the first move? No.

( and don’t drag Muhammad in to this discussion. This discussion is about members of RF.

F1fan said:

And who says an ordinary thinker doesn't have better ideas than any of those writings? Why do you need a guru?

If you can't trust yourself and your own ability to think what makes you correct in deciding your religion is true and accurate?

Click to expand...

Good questions. I once thought I knew what was best and followed that path. But I could not realise my dreams and hopes. So then I lost all hope. I went to the different religions and groups such as free thinkers etc but my despair grew worse. At that time I decided what I wanted didn’t exist so soon followed 6 suicide attempts. The last one I swallowed 50 Largactal sleeping pills and was close to death. Every time I told the doctors what I wanted they grabbed me and sedated me. I was locked in a mental institution often in a strait jacket for my own protection.

Then, as a last desperate attempt to make me forget my dreams, they administered 6 courses of electric shock treatment. I couldn’t remember my name and many other things but my wish was on fire wanting it with more than my very life.

I wanted the ‘real thing’. Not what everyone else had because all they had was confusion and division. I wanted more than ever to find a way that could heal humanity of it’s wars and conflicts and create love between all people.

I never in my wildest dreams ever thought that God had already sent humanity the healing for all its ills. I accidentally came across the Baha’is and at first opposed it vehemently as all the rest only aggravated humanity’s predicament so no reason for Baha’is to be any different. But they were and that bothered me greatly.

How could such beautiful people believe in a nonsensical mythical imaginary God. Then one day I began reading the Words of Baha’u’llah. I was alone and I wept for days. I had found the greatest thing that could ever happen to humanity. A thousand times beyond my wildest dreams I found what all of humanity is searching for unknowingly.

That was 46 years ago. Humanity one day will all discover Baha’u’llah and will rejoice because this age we are living in is the Day of the unity of humanity, the dawn of a beautiful world civilisation. The pains we are experiencing now are the death pangs of the old ways and the birth pains of a glorious future for humanity.

Everyone will eventually awaken. For me it was always about humanity. The happiness and well being of my fellow brothers and sisters. The dream is coming true.

Nimos said:

So how would one settle that? Meaning what is God's guidance actually and who is right?

Click to expand...

You ask a good question. I consider myself a seeker because I'm trying to find the true religion and consider it at this point lost.

To me the true Sunnah and true interpretation of Quran has been lost. The Ahlulbayt (a) have left a legacy of knowledge, insights, proofs, and wisdom, but they are mixed with fabrications and lies.

The Quran is not translated properly nor understood properly by any group of people at the moment.

So at the end, my answer is, I'm trying to figure this out.

I would devote more time to it, but currently, need to finish my degree that has been delayed due me getting of my meds like an idiot.

At this point, I don't know God's guidance exactly. There maybe a very easy method to determine truth at the end and it becomes easy.

But at this point, I don't know the solution for our divisions.

PureX said:

There are always going to be people that know more about any given subject than we do. And we would be fools to ignore their expertise.

However, in terms of what we choose to believe about the nature or existence of 'God', we each will have to decide that for ourselves. And that includes the decision to follow someone else's beliefs, or to ignore the question all together. It's what makes the question so interesting, and significant.

Click to expand...

Thats fine.
It's when people are illogical, or,make claims like that they know there was an origin to
the universe, and that they know what / when
the origin took place, well, that iscsilly and fair game for skeptics who doubt their wisdom.

Nimos said:

..it seems weird how Taliban is capable of fooling so many Muslims if they all know that they are wrong?

Click to expand...

It might be that the Tallban and other Muslims are following the same thing, but have different political viewpoints .. not that I'm saying they are.

eg. Republican Muslim and Democrat Muslim

That really has little to do with Islam.

By the way...this discussion is not just about how "experts " understanding Islam but all religions

Seeker of White Light said:

A religious person who hold a personal belief in any religion or spiritual teaching, has no reason to feel intimidated by a socalled expert on religion....there is not one answer fits all when it comes to spiritual practice.

An expert has an opinion, thats all.
Let them have their opinion, and the best part, just leave them alone
They try to tell you "you don't know your own personal belief" that is hilerious.

Click to expand...

One time I stated my beliefs, and because I believe in a single, universal God, a Pagan called me out for superimposing my beliefs on others.
As he tried to point out my perceived wrongs, he was basically trying to get me see God through his polytheistic lens, and he said he wasn't just expressing his opinion but that he was using facts(therefore superimposing his views on mine), making him look like the people he despised in my view.

I think the way I worded it triggered a knee-jerk reaction because I said that He is everyone's God, making the guy feel like I was deciding for him which deities are worth worshiping and which ones not.