Is my bhakti going nowhere? some dilemmas.

The more I get to know about Shiva, the more I am convinced that he is the Lord of all gods, the supreme or whatever is used to denote a similar meaning.

Supreme in the sense, he is the divine decision-maker who has the final word of authority in all matters.

Sometimes, though not always, this thought crosses my mind during my prayers to Krishna and I feel a little shaky and start doubting if my Krishna-bhakti is even real, given I feel he is only secondary to Shiva.

Although a little 'vipralamba bhava' or missing my prayer to Krishna for a few days makes me cry for him like anything and this reassures my bhakti to Lord Krishna.

Does anyone here have any word for me, advice, thoughts........... anything welcome. Thanks.

I can only speak from my own experience; for a while I saw Shiva as Supreme, but I now identify as Shakta. Yet, I still see Shiva as the Supreme Being, because there is no difference, in my view, between Shiva and Shakti. They are the same. Any difference we see is caused by maya. God is still worshipped, even if we call God Shiva, Shakti, Krishna, Ganesha, etc.

Do you think you could see Shiva and Krishna as the same? I believe personally that our Bhakti all goes to the same Source. It's just a matter of how we see the Divine.

I know I'm unconventional... but...

I worship Shiva and Krishna. I don't worry about who is supreme. This just isn't important to me. It might be fun to discuss from a philosophical standpoint, but whether Shiva or Krishna is Lord of All is irrelevant to my relationship with them.

I read once(and I sure wish I could remember where) that the highest offense was to argue over which of the two was greater. If Shiva and Vishnu don't want me arguing over it, I won't. Besides, it appears in scriptures there is little to no competition between them. There is mention of each worshipping the other(and Devi, too). So, I will do the same.

Splendid replies, and you could both say, they are kinda the type of replies I really needed.

Well, it is said, at the tender beginner levels, bhakti is hard to be protected and stay healthy from many types of external influences and self-doubts and I think I am in that stage.

It is also said, 3 elements go into bhakti towards one's chosen deity.

i) The sun - Knowing he/she (your ishta) is supreme.

ii) The moon - Knowing he/she is benevolent.

iii) The rahu - Knowing he/she is the form that attracts you the best.

Because for me one of the factors (the sun) is taking a beating sometimes, I tend to worry if I will sustain the self-doubting phase and will proceed to the higher levels.

The fact that I do not truly have a guru to clarify such things, upsets me.

If you have any more words for me, or anyone else for that matters, most welcome. Thanks.

Viraja said:

The more I get to know about Shiva, the more I am convinced that he is the Lord of all gods, the supreme or whatever is used to denote a similar meaning.

Supreme in the sense, he is the divine decision-maker who has the final word of authority in all matters.

Sometimes, though not always, this thought crosses my mind during my prayers to Krishna and I feel a little shaky and start doubting if my Krishna-bhakti is even real, given I feel he is only secondary to Shiva.

Although a little 'vipralamba bhava' or missing my prayer to Krishna for a few days makes me cry for him like anything and this reassures my bhakti to Lord Krishna.

Does anyone here have any word for me, advice, thoughts........... anything welcome. Thanks.

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I will be of no help here, because it's outside my version of Hinduism. From my POV, you really only need one as Supreme. You think Krishna wouldn't accept the devotion to Shiva if it was misdirected at Him, or vice versa. I just find it simpler to worship one. Then personal worship issues like this simply don't arise. But then I'm a simple guy. Although I'm Saiva, I much prefer a Sri Vaishnava temple to a Smarta one. At least then I know who is God there. But to each His/Her own.

From the Thirumanthiram, on bhakti, a verse I read today ... I paraphrase ... "The sole purpose one has a mouth is to sing the praises of God." In Tirumular's case (and mine) it was Shiva, but the same could be applied to Krishna, or any of the great gods of the Hindu pantheon.

Thanks, Vinayaka ji.

Viraja said:

Does anyone here have any word for me, advice, thoughts........... anything welcome. Thanks.

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Namaste, Viraja. This passage from the Padma Purāṇa made things clear for me:


You as a devotee of Śrī Kṛṣṇa feeling convinced that Śiva is supreme is a good thing. You are connecting to Kṛṣṇa's heart, which is Mahādeva. If you were a devotee of Śiva, you might feel that Kṛṣṇa is supreme, and it would be because you were connecting to Śiva's heart. I myself worship Rāmacandra who is Nārāyaṇa as Īśvara, and sometimes I find myself worshipping Mahādeva as Īśvara. I cannot help but do so. It is not a problem for me because there is no quantitative difference between them. Hari is Hara, and Hara is Hari.


The Padma Purana. Translated by N. A. Deshpande, Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 1951. Wisdom Library, wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-padma-purana.

Viraja said:

The more I get to know about Shiva, the more I am convinced that he is the Lord of all gods, the supreme or whatever is used to denote a similar meaning.

Supreme in the sense, he is the divine decision-maker who has the final word of authority in all matters.

Sometimes, though not always, this thought crosses my mind during my prayers to Krishna and I feel a little shaky and start doubting if my Krishna-bhakti is even real, given I feel he is only secondary to Shiva.

Although a little 'vipralamba bhava' or missing my prayer to Krishna for a few days makes me cry for him like anything and this reassures my bhakti to Lord Krishna.

Does anyone here have any word for me, advice, thoughts........... anything welcome. Thanks.

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Excellent replies from each and every one on this thread.

Dear @Viraja

I have good news.

This appears more like a heart versus head issue.

There are several things here.
-- Personal relationship
-- Leela
-- Tattva - principle, and the question of the Supreme -- what is ParaBramhan, or "Is Krishna Supreme?" - Short answer, yes! Read the Bhagavad Geeta.

----------
So first let's start with the simplest - "What is ParaBramhan - the Supreme" , is it Shiva? VishNu - Krishna? both? neither? Are they the same Being?

This is the same One and Only ParaBramha speaking in the Geeta, and
If He is explicitly explaining "I am like this" e.g. "aham AtmA guDAkesha jeeva bhutAshaya sthita" or "mAmaivamshe jeeva loke..." or
He has made things so easy for us

The very same ParaBramha, is a lot more than just the form of Krishna with a peacock feather and kamal nayan - Lotus Eyes ( even those lotus eyes are the gateway to the infinite).
Internally He is vast and infinite. ParaBramhan sAkshAt.

From the Bhagavad Geeta: Krishna says He is all of the below and more...
gati - destination, state of being to be achieved by the sAdhak -- is His state
bhartA - Support and shelter, Pati
prabhU - God, Lord
sAkshI - Witness
niwAs - haven, shelter
sharaNa - point of surrender
surhud - truest, closest, Dearest Friend (Who knows you more than you know yourself)
prabhava - creator, that which is the source of , cause of manifestation
pralaya - sink -- the storm and annhilation into which everything material dissolves
sthAna - steady unchanging unwavering place, position, anchor.
nidhAna - final destination, residence
beeja - seed
avyaya - imperishable source

bhUtabhartRu - nurturer, protector
grAsishNu - annhilator
prabhavishNu - creator - who brings forth the material world

Please see this post

Bhagavad GeetA 13.16
avibhaktaM cha bhUteshu vibhaktaM eva cha sthitaM |
bhUtabhartru cha tadneyaM grAsishNu prabhavishNu cha ||

Line (pankti) 1: That One (ParamAtmA) is One and indivisible (avibhaktam) like the sky, and yet, appears as if divided among and within the various entities [- charAchar - moving and stationary - who are also moving ].

Line (pankti) 2: This One and only ParamAtmA, the subject of knowledge (dneyam),
a) is their bhUta-bhartRu i.e. VishNu (nurtures all living beings) , is their bhartA* (support and shelter)
b) AND annihilator of all - He is GRAsishNu (Rudra, grAs = destroy) , and
c) AND manifests all , He is PrabhavishNu (BramhA; prabha = birth, bring forth).

So the same ParamAtmA is VishNu, Rudra and BramhA
bhUtabhartRu cha tadneyaM grAsishNu prabha-vishNu cha

and he is avibhaktam (indivisible).

----

Further,
BG 9.17 pitAhamasya jagato mAtA dhAtA pitAmaha |
vedyam pavitram omkara rk sama yajur eva ca ||
-- I am the Father of the whole world/creation, Mother, support, shelter, and also the Grandfather. I am the One to be known (vedyaM) - ultimate target of knowledge, auspicious and pure OnkAr (Om) , and I am what the Rg-veda, sAma-veda and Yajurveda describe so elaborately. (It is all pointing to Me)

BG 14.4
sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ |
tāsāḿ brahma mahad yonir ahaḿ bīja-pradaḥ pitā ||
I am the seed-giving Father to this Prakruti - called Mahad-Bramh' , who then gives rise to this material world.
All beings take birth in the world this way.

-------

Elsewhere, in chapter 13 - anAdi mat param Bramha na sadAsaditi uchyate ...
My (mat) eternal Bramha can be described as neither Sat (eternally unchanging, present in the same state), nor asat (perishable , non-eternal or false)
( I am Sat, but My avyakta muLa prakruti (mahad-bramh) is constantly changing , transforming so cannot qualify as Sat. At the same time it is not asat - as in perishable because the muLa avyakta prakruti is always there - it is eternal)

BG 14.27 bramhaNo hi pratishThA aham amrutasyAvyayasya cha
shAswatasya cha dharmasya sukhaikAntikasya cha
I am the very foundation and support of this entire vastness called Bramh (again refers to the avyakta - unseen cause and the manifested world),
-- of this eternal muLa prakruti (avyaya)
-- of the eternal dharma
-- and of the solitary peace and happiness.

BG 7 & 15 - There are 2 kinds of entities - perishable and imperishable. Perishable are the bodies made of 5 elements (panchamahAbhUta)
and imperishable are the living entities -- jeevAtmA who identify with the body (these are expressions of My higher prakruti).

BG 7 - all these beings are like pearls of thread strung on the same thread that is ME. So the pearls are made of the same material - thread that is ME.

BG 15 - Beyond these 2 kinds of entities -- there is the third -- uttam purush , that is Me , Purushottam - The Best Being , Highest Being - who is not entangled in the perishable and stands unaffected, detached, alipta.

BG 10 last verse -- Why do you care about these details , Arjuna? Just remember that I have held this entire material world via/using/upon just a fraction of Myself.
(So the material world is not exactly Him, but it only takes an amsha - fraction of Him to hold the material world - He is further very vast beyond the material)

===========


Second, about bhakti, relationship and Leela

Did Shiva approach you in any way or suddenly initiate you into something?

a) If yes, then this is ParaBramha's Leela - They teamed up and planned this behind your back - they love to see the expression on your face - puzzled.
Jokes apart, and on a more serious note -- it is to polish you from all angles.

e.g. Shiva can expedite what Krishna wants you to do in BG chapter 6 - dhyAna yoga

b) If not, if these are just doubts in your mind, I would say read the Bhagavad Geeta very very carefully. A devotee of Krishna has to listen to His words in the Bhagavad, Uddhav and Anu Geeta, but at least in the Bhagavad Geeta and take them seriously.


I really like what @mangalavara wrote. If you feel Shiva is worthy of worship as Supreme, it is because you are connected to Krishna's heart and Shiva is sitting there, in His heart.

@mangalavara and @ameyAtmA, thanks for your kind and good replies.

Hello friends,

That feeling of 'comparative greatness' disappeared as soon as I got replies from this thread. So thank all who replied here once more.

On deep introspection, I gathered that it is not the apparent greatness that moves one to one's ishta, although this thought is there, it is more of the 'rasa' that moves one to choose a particular form of deity.

For example, if you watch mount Kailash in all its silence, and ruminate on Lord Shiva's great deeds, you get one particular type of feel - to me, it feels like a renunciate type of peaceful, uplifting feel. This is one rasa.

Whereas if I think of Krishna, I get a joyous, compassionate feel. With all his playful leelas, most valorous slaying of the demons, and so forth. Especially speaking of his joyous and playful pastimes of Vrindavana and its related forests...... (most beautifully explained by HH Indradyumna swami Maharaja in his lecture series).

With Murugan it could be a different rasa, with another, yet another.............. so it is all the rasa.

I am happy I discussed this question with you friends. Have a great day!

Viraja said:

The more I get to know about Shiva, the more I am convinced that he is the Lord of all gods, the supreme or whatever is used to denote a similar meaning.

Supreme in the sense, he is the divine decision-maker who has the final word of authority in all matters.

Sometimes, though not always, this thought crosses my mind during my prayers to Krishna and I feel a little shaky and start doubting if my Krishna-bhakti is even real, given I feel he is only secondary to Shiva.

Although a little 'vipralamba bhava' or missing my prayer to Krishna for a few days makes me cry for him like anything and this reassures my bhakti to Lord Krishna.

Does anyone here have any word for me, advice, thoughts........... anything welcome. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Lord Krishna himself was a worshipper of the Shivalingam.

In the popular Guruvayoor temple of Krishna in south India, there is a tradition that one should first worship at the Mamiyur temple of Shiva nearby and then only worship Krishna at the Guruvayur temple. This is because of Krishna's devotion to the Shivalingam.

Before the Mahabharatha war, Krishna also exhorts Arjuna to worship Shiva for victory.

So I am sure Krishna is okay with your love and reverence for Shiva.

Viraja said:

Hello friends,

That feeling of 'comparative greatness' disappeared as soon as I got replies from this thread. So thank all who replied here once more.

On deep introspection, I gathered that it is not the apparent greatness that moves one to one's ishta, although this thought is there, it is more of the 'rasa' that moves one to choose a particular form of deity.

For example, if you watch mount Kailash in all its silence, and ruminate on Lord Shiva's great deeds, you get one particular type of feel - to me, it feels like a renunciate type of peaceful, uplifting feel. This is one rasa.

Whereas if I think of Krishna, I get a joyous, compassionate feel. With all his playful leelas, most valorous slaying of the demons, and so forth. Especially speaking of his joyous and playful pastimes of Vrindavana and its related forests...... (most beautifully explained by HH Indradyumna swami Maharaja in his lecture series).

With Murugan it could be a different rasa, with another, yet another.............. so it is all the rasa.

I am happy I discussed this question with you friends. Have a great day!

Click to expand...

I'm glad your 'dilemma' is over. I remember a swami I know changing the phrase '50 shades of grey' to 50 shades of white', the point being that all worship is good. So when we compare Murugan to Krishna, to Shiva, etc., it's good, good, and good. They're all pleased to see you worshipping any of them.

But you're right ... different dances for different days, and it leads to a greater balance in life. Although I do a daily Siva puja, that's partly a lie, because every Friday in this house I switch over to Ganesha. They both insist on it. Ganesha says, "Hey, it's my turn," in His jovial way, and Siva says, "You can't honour me without honouring my Son".

Then there are astrological times of the year like right now, where other Gods come into play, and right now it's Murugan here. Today, in preparation for Thai Pusam tomorrow, we'll do a full abhishekham at home, and honor the God of inner wisdom. beseeching the holy Vel to be used to dispel the bondage of ignorance.

Tomorrow is Thai Pusam at the temple, and we will be there maybe 6 or 7 hours. They honour Palaniandavar once a year, in the AM puja, and then the main shrine Murugan in the evening. Parades, a homa, flowers, 1008 names, and more. It's the time for austerity. If not for Covid, I would be carrying kavadi.

Best wishes.

@Vinayaka ji,

Here is something for you - Madurai Meenakshi Temple mandap, my sketch.

Would love to add something Shri Murugan-related, but next time.

Viraja said:

@Vinayaka ji,

Here is something for you - Madurai Meenakshi Temple mandap, my sketch.

Would love to add something Shri Murugan-related, but next time.

View attachment 59132

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On a wall, in a hotel, near Palani, I saw this amazing painting. It was of the hill, but before it had the commercial stuff surrounding it. The painting (perhaps it was a print) had that place of pilgrimage captured so magnificently ... the painting itself shone with the presence of Sri Palaniandavar ... ancient vibes, before the invaders, when the the Tamil faith of antiquity was in its purest form.

Palani Hill is much like approaching the Rocky Mountains, or any famous landmark. Once you can see it with your eyes, you can feel it with your body.

In Madurai, we found quiet corners to sit and watch. A young girl with her grandfather approached ... we entered into a discussion. He watched. Perfect English, many fine answers, she knew why she was there, but pondered on the unusual color of the couple's skin, so also asked questions. What a glorious hour that was!

Vinayaka said:

On a wall, in a hotel, near Palani, I saw this amazing painting. It was of the hill, but before it had the commercial stuff surrounding it. The painting (perhaps it was a print) had that place of pilgrimage captured so magnificently ... the painting itself shone with the presence of Sri Palaniandavar ... ancient vibes, before the invaders, when the the Tamil faith of antiquity was in its purest form.

Palani Hill is much like approaching the Rocky Mountains, or any famous landmark. Once you can see it with your eyes, you can feel it with your body.

In Madurai, we found quiet corners to sit and watch. A young girl with her grandfather approached ... we entered into a discussion. He watched. Perfect English, many fine answers, she knew why she was there, but pondered on the unusual color of the couple's skin, so also asked questions. What a glorious hour that was!

Click to expand...

Well, this is beyond the scope of this forum. I just wonder how marvelous it would be to discuss profound bhakti related topics, especially with someone who worships a different deity and also had reasonably long enough experience as a sadhak. It would be so uplifting, to say the least. On a forum, it might bring upon clash of opinions though, 1-on-1 is the best choice for such exchanges. You seem to have much to learn from, Vinayaka ji.

Viraja said:

Well, this is beyond the scope of this forum. I just wonder how marvelous it would be to discuss profound bhakti related topics, especially with someone who worships a different deity and also had reasonably long enough experience as a sadhak. It would be so uplifting, to say the least. On a forum, it might bring upon clash of opinions though, 1-on-1 is the best choice for such exchanges. You seem to have much to learn from, Vinayaka ji.

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When you go to India on your own (not my wisdom, my Guru's) you're far more likely to hit miraculous stuff, as it's your karma, good or bad, and not the group's, if you're with a group. I had some, shall we say, interesting experiences. Perhaps when it's safe again from Covid, I shall go again, alone. A couple of places are beckoning, one in particular. The two times I went I had company, once with a daughter, and once with Boss. Alone would be interesting indeed.

Viraja said:

@Vinayaka ji,

Here is something for you - Madurai Meenakshi Temple mandap, my sketch.

Would love to add something Shri Murugan-related, but next time.

View attachment 59132

Click to expand...

I forgot to say it last time, but the drawing is beautiful. I've stood in that hall, with Nataraja at the end. If I remember correctly, for where the artist is standing, the musical pillar is a bit back and to the right.

JustGeorge said:

I read once(and I sure wish I could remember where) that the highest offense was to argue over which of the two was greater

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I don't believe in "highest offense to God", as God is not touched by Duality, only humans are

As Silence is the language of the Wise
My guess is that
Arguing is the language of the ...

Hence
"arguing is the highest offense to the Self"