Baha'i and Messengers

Truthseeker said:

You are blind to what he just said. You are blind to what spiritual quest means, period. It means finding a source you can humble yourself to and finding a way to do that ultimately through that source. At least that's what @Seeker of White Light is doing. I know, he's friend of mine.

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Most self indulgent people are blind to to
insight.

" Humbling yourself" is, guess what, about self.
One hundred percent self centered, however much one tries to project some " spirit" out there.
I rather doubt any seeking by seekers got deep enough to take a serious minded look at that ill - concealed layer.

Policy said:

That is both incorrect and arrogantly presumptive.

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Arrogance, yes.

Vanity, self indulgence on full display.

So tellingly opposite to the ostensible goal
of achieving humility.

lukethethird said:

OK, so those other believer's faith in God is wrong but your faith in God is true, got it.

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Everyone says the same so it must be true.

loverofhumanity said:

I have no idea. Your profile states your religion is ‘none’. So then tell me about ‘none’.

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I believe that the Earth is an oblate spheroid. That humans are social animals. That roller coasters are fun. That morality is an evolved attribute. I believe that the concept of a soul is superfluous. That the epithet "molecules in motion" is the indignation of a bruised ego. I believe that sex work is work. I believe that when it comes to politic that most people are engaged in the Drazi Green-Purple Tradition. I believe that that trans women are women and that trans men are men. I believe that functional immortality would lead to cultural stagnation, if not total extinction. I believe that a even constant love is more sustaining that a wild tempestuous affair. I believe that wild tempestuous affairs are wonderful. I believe that chaos should be ridden and gently guided, rather than seized and coerced. I believe that unity cannot come from the top. I believe in taking little pleasures along the way.

"I believe that anyone who claims to know what’s going on will lie about the little things too. I believe in absolute honesty and sensible social lies. I believe that life is a game that life is a cruel joke, and that life is what happens when you’re alive and that you might as well lie back and enjoy it" -- Samantha Black Crow

Policy said:

[sigh] According to fallible humans. You have to assume your conclusion that you have been endowed with an innate capacity to infallibly recognise God and His Prophets. It is circular reasoning.

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The issue or claim here is that the Prophets of God possess infallible knowledge.

How did I arrive at that conclusion? I investigated Their lives, teachings and Holy Books.

Have you done a similar independent thorough investigation of the Prophets of God to determine whether that is true or not?

Other than criticising my reasoning what investigation have you done? Have you studied the Word of God with an open and unbiased mind without preconceived ideas? Or read the Quran or Book of Certitude?

Policy said:

I believe that the Earth is an oblate spheroid. That humans are social animals. That roller coasters are fun. That morality is an evolved attribute. I believe that the concept of a soul is superfluous. That the epithet "molecules in motion" is the indignation of a bruised ego. I believe that sex work is work. I believe that when it comes to politic that most people are engaged in the Drazi Green-Purple Tradition. I believe that that trans women are women and that trans men are men. I believe that functional immortality would lead to cultural stagnation, if not total extinction. I believe that a even constant love is more sustaining that a wild tempestuous affair. I believe that wild tempestuous affairs are wonderful. I believe that chaos should be ridden and gently guided, rather than seized and coerced. I believe that unity cannot come from the top. I believe in taking little pleasures along the way.

"I believe that anyone who claims to know what’s going on will lie about the little things too. I believe in absolute honesty and sensible social lies. I believe that life is a game that life is a cruel joke, and that life is what happens when you’re alive and that you might as well lie back and enjoy it" -- Samantha Black Crow

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This reply made me understand you a little better. You have a lot of belief in your life, it may not be of spiritual nature, but you seem to be an ok person

firedragon said:

The Bahai theology is that every single religion that we know of had the same origin. In fact, this is the Islamic view as well but its a philosophical view based on direct scripture.

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Can you explain the Islamic view a little bit? Because I have a problem with the Baha'i view.

First... They say that there was a "manifestation" of God that founded the religion. And then list Krishna as a manifestation. But what religion did he "found"? And Baha'is ignore the other "incarnations" that came before Krishna.

Then with Buddha, they claim that originally, he taught about God. Here's a quote from Abdul Baha'...
Then with Judaism, Baha'is list Abraham and Moses, and they may also include Adam and Noah as being manifestations. All from the same religion? And I've never seen anything in Judaism or Christianity that would support the belief that all religions had God as their source.

I respect your knowledge on all these issues. I'm not a scholar and don't want to be one. So, keeping it simple would be appreciated. And I know sometimes you don't like getting into things that aren't relevant to the OP. If that's the case, that's fine too. Thanks.

Seeker of White Light said:

This reply made me understand you a little better. You have a lot of belief in your life, it may not be of spiritual nature, but you seem to be an ok person

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You seem to be an okay person, too. I very much enjoyed reading your thread on Sufiism.

I suspect that most, 65ish% at the least, of the people who post here would get along in real life. Or at least not be antagonistic towards each other in a normal professional, or neighborly, relationship.

F1fan said:

I'll say no one has been blown away by any Baha'i presenting an objective case as to why Messengers of God are authentic. It would be groundbreaking if it was true. So, are you just bluffing about this part?

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Is there any reason for you to believe that Buddha was a "manifestation" of God? And part of a progression of manifestations that led us to Baha'u'llah? And that Baha'u'llah is the return of Buddha/Maitreya? And... Do your Buddhist beliefs include reincarnation? If so, you know how Baha'is feel about that. And also, What Buddhist Scriptures do you follow? Because I've never heard of Baha'is supporting any Buddhist Scripture as being authentic.

Buddhism and Hinduism have had to have major changes made to them to fit into the Baha'i chain of true, revealed religions. And here's Abdul Baha's quote again...

Policy said:

You seem to be an okay person, too. I very much enjoyed reading your thread on Sufiism.

I suspect that most, 65ish% at the least, of the people who post here would get along in real life. Or at least not be antagonistic towards each other in a normal professional, or neighborly, relationship.

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I hope to share more in the future, and you are welcome to coment on my posts
I trying to become better in handling critique not so good at the moment.

CG Didymus said:

Is there any reason for you to believe that Buddha was a "manifestation" of God?

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I don't believe any gods exist. Nor do I revere Buddha as a divine person.

And part of a progression of manifestations that led us to Baha'u'llah? And that Baha'u'llah is the return of Buddha/Maitreya?

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No, I consider all humans who have had insights and ideas to be functioning within their own abilities and personalities. No doubt there have been many wise people who never tried to spread their approach with others as a teacher. The few through history who did were surely just the examples that tried and succeeded. Buddhism is at the most basic level a set of mental practices that help manage the emotions and thoughts. It's not magic. Much of Buddhist practice can be said to be consistent with psychological advice.

And... Do your Buddhist beliefs include reincarnation?

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It's a fun idea, but Im not convinced. Let's note that how Eastern cultures treat ideas like this is vastly different that how people in the West interpret them. Reincarntion in the East refers to the spirt/moral essence of a person, not like a ghost or spirit that continues on as if still alive.

If so, you know how Baha'is feel about that. And also, What Buddhist Scriptures do you follow?

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None. I'm not a person who is attracted to dogma or any sort of guidelines to apply and follow.

Because I've never heard of Baha'is supporting any Buddhist Scripture as being authentic.

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It could be that Theravada Buddhism is non-theistic, thus not attractive to Baha'i folks.

Buddhism and Hinduism have had to have major changes made to them to fit into the Baha'i chain of true, revealed religions. And here's Abdul Baha's quote again...

Buddha also established a new religion... He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images.​

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The quote is inaccurate. First, Siddartha was Hindu, so was born and raised in a polytheistic system, not just one God. And Buddhism was non-theistic as an approach, so inaccurate there, too. So you offer an example of this prophet getting a claim wrong in two ways that has plenty of facts to check. There are religious forms of Buddhism but they are not original.

Plus the symbols in Eastern religions are vasty different than in the West. They tend to represent something real, or a means to a ritual or practice that has some practical end. For example prayer wheels is a reminder of how to be present and aware. The act of spinning prayer wheels is not asking for something from a god or the universe, but about the self and how it has to focus inward, not into an ideological framework.

TransmutingSoul said:

Firstly I see that no human can have the Buddha experience, that was given of God.

Then we would have to determine what are the original teachings of Buddha?

Regards Tony

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Just as a guess, I'd imagine that a person meditating will come to realizations and deep spiritual understandings. But they could all be very well based on their beliefs. So, they could feel and believe they are becoming "enlightened". And, as far as I know, maybe they do become enlightened.

And we're not going to find any "original" teachings. But I'm fine with Buddhists writing their own Scriptures. It is their truths and what they believe. But, because it contradicts Baha'i beliefs, then it is important for Baha'is to explain why those Scriptures aren't authentic and reliable and don't describe the true teachings of the Buddha. And Baha'is do. They say people have added things in. And, like the NT, it is the followers that wrote the story. So, we don't know for sure how accurate these stories and teachings are.

So, what we going to do? Change Buddhist beliefs to fit in with Baha'i beliefs? For Baha'is, yes, that is necessary. The other option, which many Christians take, is to just say the whole religion is false. What it was in the beginning and what it is now doesn't matter. It was never true and was never from God.

The Baha'i approach is a little better... That "originally" Buddha taught about God and that reincarnation is just a misinterpretation. But the Baha'i explanation still makes what Buddhists believe and practice today, false.

Policy said:

You seem to be an okay person, too. I very much enjoyed reading your thread on Sufiism.

I suspect that most, 65ish% at the least, of the people who post here would get along in real life. Or at least not be antagonistic towards each other in a normal professional, or neighborly, relationship.

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If you bring beer and pizza that could bump up to a solid 2/3%.

Truthseeker said:

We listen to the actual Messengers, not to the followers that come after them.

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But what did the messengers actually say? All we have is what the followers wrote. And even now with the Quran and the Baha'i writings, lots of us still don't like what is being said.

i[/Q

loverofhumanity said:

The issue or claim here is that the Prophets of God possess infallible knowledge.

How did I arrive at that conclusion? I investigated Their lives, teachings and Holy Books.

Have you done a similar independent thorough investigation of the Prophets of God to determine whether that is true or not?


Other than criticising my reasoning what investigation have you done? Have you studied the Word of God with an open and unbiased mind without preconceived ideas? Or read the Quran or Book of Certitude?

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Checking only on internal sources is exactly what circular restoring is about.

It's the opposite of investigating with an open unbiased mind.

Example. Using only the bible we see that the value of Pi is 3.0. Simple

The " sea" in " kings" is a 10x30 circle.
Use only the bible as reference, Pi= 3,0
"Curcular reasoning"

Using only sacred works shows that there was a world wide flood and noahs ark, which is no more factual than Pi= 3.0

Do you see any flaws in your " method of determining what is true"?

CG Didymus said:

"originally" Buddha taught about God

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If Sidd were alive today he'd be taking folk to court for defamation.

F1fan said:

Buddhism is at the most basic level a set of mental practices that help manage the emotions and thoughts. It's not magic. Much of Buddhist practice can be said to be consistent with psychological advice.

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Is it similar to me doing yoga but not necessarily following Hindu beliefs? Which makes me think. If the Baha'i Faith just said all people are one, and it is time to unite and work together for peace... who'd argue against that? But then they have to add in their religious beliefs too. And how many people are going to join and follow all the rules and want to be a practicing Baha'i?

Secret Chief said:

If Sidd were alive today he'd be taking folk to court for defamation.

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Yes. But I see why Baha'is do it. They have to show a continuity between all the major religions and their founders. God has to be one. And truth has to be one. Even if they have to make up stuff about the other religions. Who's gonna know? "Originally"? What originally? How are we ever going to find that out?

I've often heard that there are "many" paths to God or to enlightenment to whatever? Isn't that a Buddhist belief? So, are different paths, okay? They don't all have to be the same? Yet, some religions do have to be the "only" way. The "true" way... as opposed to some false or wrong way. And, even though, Baha'is say Buddhism and the Buddha are true..."originally". They still make what Buddhists believe now false.

So, was it wrong for Buddhism to change and evolve? To add in things that fit better with a different people and culture? Would Buddha have cared and said, "No, you're changing my religion into something different." Like if I had an idea on how to make something and you tweaked it to make it better. Would I complain and say, "Why did you do that? That's not how I originally planned it." Of course, if I claimed that God gave me the idea, and that idea was perfect, then I'd have to.

So, did God give Buddha his idea of a religion that was perfect and not meant to ever be changed? Because that is what the Baha'is are saying... that Buddhism was perfect, and those changes took away that "perfect" original message and teachings.

Brian2 said:

I got the same impression when presented with what Baha'u'llah has said about himself.
Jesus just said who He is and unlike with Baha'u'llah, God confirmed what Jesus said by raising Him from the dead.

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You know that verse where it says here's a Christ and there's a Christ but don't believe them, because when Jesus comes it will be obvious. Then the wars and rumors of wars. There's still wars, so is it already the end? But not now, 150 years ago was it the end?

Like I've said in the past, I'd rather have the Baha'is be right then a literal Christianity, but there's just too much that doesn't fit and hasn't been fulfilled.

Policy said:

I believe that wild tempestuous affairs are wonderful.

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Policy said:

I believe in taking little pleasures along the way.

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I understand why religions like Christianity and the Baha'i Faith have strict moral codes, and why the Baha'is forbid drugs and alcohol, but some, or most people, do live their lives taking in a few little pleasures along the way. And nothing quite like a tempestuous affair now and again.

And I think that many religious people do the same, but most can't admit it or let it be known.