"A" Torath Mosheh View of Human Suffering and Responsibility

1. Why would a serial killer be allowed to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime?
   
2. Is what ever created everything helpless to intervene because of the human free will?
   
3. Why doesn't what ever created everything respond and react at certain times to what human perceive as human suffering?

1. The average human, non-Jewish, has 7 mitzvoth/commands/rules with which to base human life and society on.
   • Two of which relate to your base questions are that a) murder is forbidden and b) that human societies must establish systems of justice and enforce them as well as strictly abide by them. Each of these two can be broken up into volumes of sub-categories.
   • For Jews, as a nation it is 613.
2. As a part of the "type of free will" there are two "basic" sides people. One called the Yetzer HaTov and the Yetzer HaRa.
   • Both sides are important. Both sides have a purpose.
   • These two sides are part of how humans can choose to either receive the good of the reality we are created in or reject it/distance themselves from it; also included is the ability make to make a mess of things.
   • Both are fully in a person's ability to cotrol and both have a use that can work out for the benefit of the individual and for society.
3. All choices have consquences.
   • The personal choice to disregard the 7 mitzvoth come along with personal and societal consquences.
   • The societal choice to disregard the 7 mitzvoth come along with personal and societal consquences.
     
   • By like token the choice hold by them and establish them have personal and collective consquences.
   • Again, for the Jewish nation there are 613.
4. Every person has a type of account that comes along with their actions and the actions of the soceity around them.
   • The action or inaction of the individual and society can tip things in one direction or another.
   • Actions taken or not taken have an affect on this account.
   • Further, there are no such things as small actions that effect nothing. All action or inaction leads somewhere.
   • As humans we don't have the ability to see this account, at least not fully. (I.e. see the following video about what I mean on perspective The fundamentals of space-time: Part 2 - Andrew Pontzen and Tom Whyntie)
5. There is this world and there is a world to come.
   • Using a military metapor, this world is like "boot-camp" and anyone who has done military service knows that boot-camp has many challenges associeted with it that a perspective soldier is expected to overcome personally and as a part of a group.
   • In a good/just military training system the challenges are never impossibe to overcome and the goal of them being there is to get the perspective soldier in the right mindset and physical state to be a proper soldier.
     
   • The world to come is like the accomplishment of surviving and overcoming boot camp. Some people reach the goal, some people quit, and some people make a mess of the whole experience.
6. Death and suffering in this world is not the end. Depending on the type of life a person lived there can be a reward when a person has suffered and when they have overcome adversity.
   • A person can live a life where they receive all the benefits of the good they do only this world.
   • A person can live a life where they will only receive the benefits of the good they do only the world to come.
   • There are some people who are able to receive the good in both.
   • There are some people who live their lives where they will receive all of the results of the bad they do in this world and in the world to come.
   • Receiving the bad in the world to come is often translated into not have a place in the world to come.
   • There is no eternal place of punishment in the world to come.
7. The Creator of all things has the ability to, if you will, "see the bigger picture w/o human eyes." I.e. the Creator of all things is not a human, has no human emotions, and is able to grasp the real bigger picture on a univeral/beyond universal level, so to speak.
   • Combined with that the Creator of all things established the universe in the way it is for the benefit of humanity.
   • Humanity can choose to use that gift correctly or not.
   • The Creator also established ways for those who choose to receive the good and use this gift properly to survive and overcome all challenges, either in this world or in the world to come.
   • The Creator's seeing the bigger picture also includes knowing when to intervene, how to intervene, when to prevent certain types of people from being turning away from evil, knowing when to strengthen those who are doing the right things, knowing when to allow a life to begin, knowing when to allow a life to end, knowing how to allow a life to begin, knowing how to allow a life to end, and knowing the conquences of how humans respond to the reality we are born into and will one day pass away from.
   • Given that we humans have no say in our birth, it would stand to reason that we also only have a certain say in our deaths. For example, all humans are created with an end date, so to speak, we cannot extend that beyond what we were created for. YET, we can lesson it and we can make it a long hard journey by our choices and the choices of the society around us. We can also make it the most joyful life every based again on our choices and the choices in society around us.
   • By like token, given that we ourselves didn't establish any of the universal or phsyical laws of the universe that allows life to be sustained we at some point have to adjust to the fact that there are things that are not in our control and we, while alive in a human body, don't have the ability see all the angles. Yet, we have every right to research, question, challenge, and come to conclusions.
8. Lastly, we humans have the world the way we want it, at any given time.
   • We have been given the power to choose between making things perfect w/o suffering or to make a world that is full of it.
   • This is the way most humans want it and that is the way the Creator has structured it; that is until humans choose to reject the mindsets and actions that individually cause suffering and collectively cause suffering.

1. A kid at the age of 6 is verbally bullied by other students at his school for three years. When the kid is 12 he is at a new school and he several friends choose to verbally bully a kid who was just like was several years earlier.
   1. What are the consquences here?
   2. For whom are there consquences?
   3. What are the possible punishments, from a non-human level, for this kid not taking the higher ground and stand up for the kid instead of joined in bullying?
   4. Should the kid be punished immediately?
   5. If the kid becomes an adult, age 36, and he realizes how wrong his actions were and regrets them but he doesn't remember any of the details about the kid he bullied, should he still be punished and how?
2. A man physically abuses a woman with his son watching him. Years later he regrets his actions but the woman he abused has passed away. He finds out that after his abuse she never recovered and her life spiraled downward until she eventualy died. His son has also become an abuser learning from his father’s example.
   1. What is the man’s responsibility to the woman and society now that the woman has passed away?
   2. What is the man’s responsibiliy to his son and his son’s victims?
   3. What punishment should come from the Creator to the man?
   4. What punishement should come from the Creator to the man’s son?
   5. Should the man’s family bear some of the punishment for not interviening in his actions?
   6. Should society bear some of the punishment for not interviening?
3. A woman who is a engineer does not spend the necessary time doing her calculations correctly on a building while working for a construction firm. She moves on to new job in a different field after figuring out that engineering is not for her. She gets married and has a family with three kids. Ten years later, the building she worked on, collapses due to the faulty engineering on her part. The company she worked worked for did not keep good records and thus it is not know how this happened.
   1. Should she report her work on the building that colapsed?
   2. If not, what punishment should come from the Creator?
   3. If she does report herself, what punishment should come from the Creator?
   4. What punishment should come from human courts?
   5. Should her family and children be taken into consideration of the punishment if they, unknowingly, benefited from the woman’s work benefits?
4. A group of 10 scientists create a method of energy release that results in a military weapon that is tested in various parts of the world. They are funded by 500 politicians, assisted by 300 military personel, and there are 20 janitors that clean their offices. The test of the energy release damages the evironment in 5 locations where they tested in ways that will never be reparied and also has effects that will not noticed directly but will negatively affect humanity for the next 10 generations. Part of the funding for the project could have been used for medical purposes and said medicial funding could have prevented a world-wide virus outbreak that will take place in two years. Another part of the funding could have been used for a program that would have prevented devistation of coast lines from tsunamies. Another part of the budget could have been used to prevent an asteroid impact that will take place in 20 years wiping out half of the population on the planet.
   1. Should there be a punishment from the Creator for the scientists only?
   2. Outside of the group of scientists, how many people should be held accountable for the all of the damage?
   3. How should they be held accoutable?

1. At what level should the Creator stop evil?
   1. Before it happens?
   2. Before the person who does it is born?
   3. After it has been initiated?
   4. What if an evil person gives birth to a grandson who is extremely good?
   5. What if a good person gives birth to a child that is evil?
   6. Should a good person be stopped from having children if 1 out of 5 of their children will be evil?
   7. Should an evil person be stopped form having children if 4 out of 5 of their children are good?
2. What if two opposing sides consider the actions of their oppenent evil?
   1. Whose side should the Creator take?
   2. Should both sides be punished equally?
   3. Who gets to determine what is an valid punishement?
3. If it is found that all humans do something that someone somewhere could be considered evil how should humanity pay the price?
   1. Is litering evil?
   2. Is talking bad about others evil?
   3. Is stealing a pack of gum evil?
   4. Is ignoring someone evil?
   5. Is racism evil?
   6. Is disagreeing evil?

1. 7 Mitzvoth/Commandments/Basiic laws for the nations. 613 Mitzvoth for Jews.
2. Reality was created for the benefit of humanity.
3. We can choose between the benefits, that come from holding by #1 or we can reject the benefits.
   • Accepting or rejecting # 1have consequences personally and for societies.

Ehav4Ever said:

In another thread, well as a question I once answered on Quara, series fo questions were asked which I will summarize in the following way.

1. Why would a serial killer be allowed to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime?
   
2. Is what ever created everything helpless to intervene because of the human free will?
   
3. Why doesn't what ever created everything respond and react at certain times to what human perceive as human suffering?

There are a number of Torath Mosheh views on the above that I will summerize in this and a few other posts.

1. The average human, non-Jewish, has 7 mitzvoth/commands/rules with which to base human life and society on.
   • Two of which relate to your base questions are that a) murder is forbidden and b) that human societies must establish systems of justice and enforce them as well as strictly abide by them. Each of these two can be broken up into volumes of sub-categories.
   • For Jews, as a nation it is 613.
2. As a part of the "type of free will" there are two "basic" sides people. One called the Yetzer HaTov and the Yetzer HaRa.
   • Both sides are important. Both sides have a purpose.
   • These two sides are part of how humans can choose to either receive the good of the reality we are created in or reject it/distance themselves from it; also included is the ability make to make a mess of things.
   • Both are fully in a person's ability to cotrol and both have a use that can work out for the benefit of the individual and for society.
3. All choices have consquences.
   • The personal choice to disregard the 7 mitzvoth come along with personal and societal consquences.
   • The societal choice to disregard the 7 mitzvoth come along with personal and societal consquences.
     
   • By like token the choice hold by them and establish them have personal and collective consquences.
   • Again, for the Jewish nation there are 613.
4. Every person has a type of account that comes along with their actions and the actions of the soceity around them.
   • The action or inaction of the individual and society can tip things in one direction or another.
   • Actions taken or not taken have an affect on this account.
   • Further, there are no such things as small actions that effect nothing. All action or inaction leads somewhere.
   • As humans we don't have the ability to see this account, at least not fully. (I.e. see the following video about what I mean on perspective The fundamentals of space-time: Part 2 - Andrew Pontzen and Tom Whyntie)
5. There is this world and there is a world to come.
   • Using a military metapor, this world is like "boot-camp" and anyone who has done military service knows that boot-camp has many challenges associeted with it that a perspective soldier is expected to overcome personally and as a part of a group.
   • In a good/just military training system the challenges are never impossibe to overcome and the goal of them being there is to get the perspective soldier in the right mindset and physical state to be a proper soldier.
     
   • The world to come is like the accomplishment of surviving and overcoming boot camp. Some people reach the goal, some people quit, and some people make a mess of the whole experience.
6. Death and suffering in this world is not the end. Depending on the type of life a person lived there can be a reward when a person has suffered and when they have overcome adversity.
   • A person can live a life where they receive all the benefits of the good they do only this world.
   • A person can live a life where they will only receive the benefits of the good they do only the world to come.
   • There are some people who are able to receive the good in both.
   • There are some people who live their lives where they will receive all of the results of the bad they do in this world and in the world to come.
   • Receiving the bad in the world to come is often translated into not have a place in the world to come.
   • There is no eternal place of punishment in the world to come.
7. The Creator of all things has the ability to, if you will, "see the bigger picture w/o human eyes." I.e. the Creator of all things is not a human, has no human emotions, and is able to grasp the real bigger picture on a univeral/beyond universal level, so to speak.
   • Combined with that the Creator of all things established the universe in the way it is for the benefit of humanity.
   • Humanity can choose to use that gift correctly or not.
   • The Creator also established ways for those who choose to receive the good and use this gift properly to survive and overcome all challenges, either in this world or in the world to come.
   • The Creator's seeing the bigger picture also includes knowing when to intervene, how to intervene, when to prevent certain types of people from being turning away from evil, knowing when to strengthen those who are doing the right things, knowing when to allow a life to begin, knowing when to allow a life to end, knowing how to allow a life to begin, knowing how to allow a life to end, and knowing the conquences of how humans respond to the reality we are born into and will one day pass away from.
   • Given that we humans have no say in our birth, it would stand to reason that we also only have a certain say in our deaths. For example, all humans are created with an end date, so to speak, we cannot extend that beyond what we were created for. YET, we can lesson it and we can make it a long hard journey by our choices and the choices of the society around us. We can also make it the most joyful life every based again on our choices and the choices in society around us.
   • By like token, given that we ourselves didn't establish any of the universal or phsyical laws of the universe that allows life to be sustained we at some point have to adjust to the fact that there are things that are not in our control and we, while alive in a human body, don't have the ability see all the angles. Yet, we have every right to research, question, challenge, and come to conclusions.
8. Lastly, we humans have the world the way we want it, at any given time.
   • We have been given the power to choose between making things perfect w/o suffering or to make a world that is full of it.
   • This is the way most humans want it and that is the way the Creator has structured it; that is until humans choose to reject the mindsets and actions that individually cause suffering and collectively cause suffering.

Thus, from Torath Mosheh perspective we study our historical texts with the above perspectives in mind - and further that the Torah was given not as a history book but an instructional for dealing with the reality that we are born into.

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Ehav4Ever said:

In response to the information found my OP someone responded:

Okay... so you take the 'It's all part of god's plan' point of view... that we'll never understand the big picture so we should just forget about it and move on. Thanks for sharing.​

My response to this was:

Actually no. I never said forget about it and move. What I wrote is the opposite of that. I also never stated that the sitautions you stated were a part of a plan of a god. I also never stated that "we" will never understand. Actually, I wrote the opposite of that.

I gave several examples of how Jewish sources talk about looking at the bigger picture when making judgement calls. I.e. look at all of the facts around the situation and be specific is one of the starting points.

For example, several thousand years ago it was not known exactly what it was like on the surface of Mars. Humans could have simply said, "We don't know and we don't have the ability to know of physically find out so let's forgot about that, accept the current reality, and move on." Yet, humans did not forget about it and move on. Instead humans constantly developed scientifically until rovers could be sent to Mars to check what is there. One day it may be possible for humans to actually go to mars and one day it may be possible for humans to live there.

The possiblitiy for all of this was always there, the materials to build the techology to do so was always there, and the ability to focus on such a goal was always there. Once certain humans developed the will power, harnessed the necessary knowledge, focused on the goal, and got funding for it the ability to do what seemed previously impossible took place. I.e. humans developed themselves to see a part of the "big picture" and took work, focus, and realizing that there is a bigger picture. Thus, the development of science and reason are ways of seeing the bigger picture - which is something Jewish sources have been stating for thousands of years.

The same applies to all aspects of human, including your examples.

Further, from a Jewish perspective the plan is known. It is what mentioned in the list I wrote earlier. I will shorten it for you here.

1. 7 Mitzvoth/Commandments/Basiic laws for the nations. 613 Mitzvoth for Jews.
2. Reality was created for the benefit of humanity.
3. We can choose between the benefits, that come from holding by #1 or we can reject the benefits.
   • Accepting or rejecting # 1have consequences personally and for societies.

Knowing the above, from a Jewish perspective, Hashem gave humanity the ability to prevent, stop, judge, and develop itself beyond the situations you mentioned. Yet, if a large portion of humanity doesn't want that then there are consequences personaly and individually. I.e. from a Jewish perspective soceieties and individuals were already given the tools to prevent, stop, judge, and develop itself beyond the sitautions you mentioned.

Lastly, humans as whole would also have to decide if they want the Creator at the level you mentioned. I.e. the intervention would have to be intervention across the board any crime, hurt, pain, slander, etc. in order for it to be fair and balenced.

Yet, if humans have the tools to do this why does one need a "god" to what humans aleady have the power to do? What happens if the majority of humans, in principle and in application, don't what you suggested? Should it be forced on humanity and if so who gets to decide what humans want a "god" to do so?

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YoursTrue said:

but wondering how you feel about evolution.

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YoursTrue said:

You know that's an interesting question. Would you say God "forced things" when the Egyptians chased the Israelites after the plagues, etc.? I hate to use that expression, but I would say that He forced things. But how?

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Ehav4Ever said:

@YoursTrue More specific to your question the following is stated.

A person may commit a great transgressions or many transgressions causing the judgment rendered before the True Judge to be that the retribution [administered to] this transgressor for these transgressions which he willfully and consciously committed is that his Teshuvah will be held back. He will not be allowed the chance to repent from his wickedness so that he will die and be wiped out because of the transgression he committed.

This is implied by the Holy One, blessed be He's statement [related] by Isaiah [6:10]: “Make the heart of this people fat [and make their ears heavy. Smear over their eyes, lest they see with their eyes... understand with their hearts, repent and be healed].”

Similarly, [II Chronicles 36:16] states “ They mocked the messengers of Hashem, scorned His words, scoffed at His prophets until the anger of Hashem mounted up against His people until there was no remedy.”

Implied [by these verses] is that they willingly transgressed, multiplying their iniquity until it was obliged to hold back their Teshuvah, [which is referred to as] the "remedy."

For these reasons, it is written in the Torah [Exodus 14:4], "I will harden Pharaoh's heart." Since, he began to transgress on his own initiative and caused hardships to the Israelites who dwelled in his land as [Exodus 1:10] states: "Come, let us deal wisely with them," judgment obligated that he be prevented from repenting so that he would suffer retribution. Therefore, The Holy One, blessed be He, hardened his heart.

Why did [Hashem] send Moses to [Pharaoh], telling him: “Send [forth the people], repent”? The Holy One, blessed be He, had already told Moses that he would not release [the people], as [Exodus 9:30] states: “I realize that you and your subjects [still do not fear Hashem].”

[The reason is stated in Exodus 9:16:] “For this alone, I have preserved you… so that My name will be spoken about throughout the earth],” i.e., to make known to all the inhabitants of the world that when the Holy One, blessed be He, withholds repentance from a trangressor, he cannot repent, but he will die in the wickedness that he initially committed willfully.

Similarly, Sichon was held liable for repentance to be withheld from him, because of the trangressions he committed, as [Deuteronomy 2:30] states: “Hashem, your Elohim, hardened his spirit and strengthened his heart.”

Also, the Canaanites held back from repenting, because of their abominable acts, so that they would wage war against Israel as [Joshua 11:20] states: "This was inspired by Hashem, to harden their hearts so that they should come against Israel in battle in order to utterly destroy them."

Similarly, the Israelites during the era of Elijah committed many iniquities. Repentance was held back from those who committed these many transgressions, as [I Kings 18:37] states: "You have turned their heart backwards," i.e., held repentance back from them.

In conclusion, the Almighty did not decree that Pharaoh should harm the Israelites that Sichon should trangres in his land, that the Canaanites should perform abominable acts, or that the Israelites should worship idols. They all transgressed on their own initiative and they were obligated to have Teshuvah held back from them.​

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Ehav4Ever said:

Which type? Micro-Evolution or Macro-Evolution?

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Ehav4Ever said:

Here is a view of things from Mishnah Torah. It is a translation from Hebrew, and I don't fully like elements of the translation, but it should help answer what you asked. Just so you know, every place where "transgression" is written it means trangressing the mitzvoth of the Torah or in the case of someone who isn't Jewish transgressing the 7 mitzvoth.

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Teshuvah chapters 3 and 6 - Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon

Free will is granted to all men. If one desires to turn himself to the path of good and be righteous, the choice is his. Should he desire to turn to the path of evil and be wicked, the choice is his.

This is [the intent of] the Torah's statement (Genesis 3:22): "Behold, man has become unique as ourselves, knowing good and evil," i.e., the human species became singular in the world with no other species resembling it in the following quality: that man can, on his own initiative, with his knowledge and thought, know good and evil, and do what he desires. There is no one who can prevent him from doing good or bad. Accordingly, [there was a need to drive him from the Garden of Eden,] "lest he stretch out his hand [and take from the tree of life]."

A person should not entertain the thesis held by the fools among the gentiles and the majority of the undeveloped among Israel that, at the time of a man's creation, The Holy One, blessed be He, decrees whether he will be righteous or wicked.

This is untrue. Each person is fit to be righteous like Moses, our teacher, or wicked, like Jeroboam. [Similarly,] he may be wise or foolish, merciful or cruel, miserly or generous, or [acquire] any other character traits. There is no one who compels him, sentences him, or leads him towards either of these two paths. Rather, he, on his own initiative and decision, tends to the path he chooses.

This was [implied by the prophet,] Jeremiah who stated [Eichah 3:38: "From the mouth of the Most High, neither evil or good come forth." The Creator does not decree that a person should be good and refrain from being evil. Accordingly, it is the transgressor, himself, who causes his own loss.

Therefore, it is proper for a person to cry and mourn for his trangressions and for what he has done to his soul, the evil consequences, he brought upon it. This is implied by the following verse [ibid.:39]: "Of what should a living man be aggrieved? [A man of his transgressions.]"

[The prophet] continues explaining, since free choice is in our hands and our own decision [is what prompts us to] commit all these wrongs, it is proper for us to repent and abandon our wickedness, for this choice is presently in our hand. This is implied by the following verse [ibid.:40]: "Let us search and examine our ways and return [to Hashem]."

This principle is a fundamental concept and a pillar [on which rests the totality] of the Torah and mitzvot as [Deuteronomy 30:15] states: "Behold, I have set before you today life [and good, death and evil]." Similarly, [Deuteronomy 11:26] states, "Behold, I have set before you today [the blessing and the curse]," implying that the choice is in your hands.

Any one of the deeds of men which a person desires to do, he may, whether good or evil. Therefore, [Deuteronomy 5:26] states:

"If only their hearts would always remain this way." From this, we can infer that the Creator does not compel or decree that people should do either good or bad. Rather, everything is left to their [own choice].

Were Hashem to decree that an individual would be righteous or wicked or that there would be a quality which draws a person by his essential nature to any particular path [of behavior], way of thinking, attributes, or deeds, as imagined by many of the fools [who believe] in astrology - how could He command us through [the words of] the prophets: "Do this," "Do not do this," "Improve your behavior," or "Do not follow after your wickedness?"

[According to their mistaken conception,] from the beginning of man's creation, it would be decreed upon him, or his nature would draw him, to a particular quality and he could not depart from it.

What place would there be for the entire Torah? According to which judgement or sense of justice would retribution be administered to the wicked or reward to the righteous? Shall the whole world's Judge not act justly!

A person should not wonder: How is it possible for one to do whatever he wants and be responsible for his own deeds? - Is it possible for anything to happen in this world without the permission and desire of its Creator as [Psalms 135:6] states: "Whatever Hashem wishes, He has done in the heavens and in the earth?"

One must know that everything is done in accord with His will and, nevertheless, we are responsible for our deeds.

How is this [apparent contradiction] resolved? Just as the Creator desired that [the elements of] fire and wind rise upward and [those of] water and earth descend downward, that the heavenly spheres revolve in a circular orbit, and all the other creations of the world follow the nature which He desired for them, so too, He desired that man have free choice and be responsible for his deeds, without being pulled or forced. Rather, he, on his own initiative, with the knowledge which Hashem has granted him, will do anything that man is able to do.

Therefore, he is judged according to his deeds. If he does good, he is treated with beneficence. If he does bad, he is treated harshly. This is implied by the prophets' statements: "This has been the doing of your hands” [Malachi 1:9]; "They also have chosen their own paths” [Isaiah 66:3].

This concept was also implied by Solomon in his statement [Ecclesiastes 11:9]: "Young man, rejoice in your youth... but, know that for all these things Hashem will bring you to judgment," i.e., know that you have the potential to do, but in the future, you will have to account for your deeds.

One might ask: Since The Holy One, blessed be He, knows everything that will occur before it comes to pass, does He or does He not know whether a person will be righteous or wicked?

If He knows that he will be righteous, [it appears] impossible for him not to be righteous. However, if one would say that despite His knowledge that he would be righteous, it is possible for him to be wicked, then His knowledge would be incomplete.

Know that the resolution to this question [can be described as]: "Its measure is longer than the earth and broader than the sea." Many great and fundamental principles and lofty concepts are dependent upon it. However, the statements that I will make must be known and understood [as a basis for the comprehension of this matter].

As explained in the second chapter of Hilchot Yesodei HaTorah, The Holy One, blessed be He, does not know with a knowledge that is external from Him as do men, whose knowledge and selves are two [different entities]. Rather, He, may His name be praised, and His knowledge are one.

Human knowledge cannot comprehend this concept in its entirety for just as it is beyond the potential of man to comprehend and conceive the essential nature of the Creator, as [Exodus 33:20] states: "No man will perceive, Me and live," so, too, it is beyond man's potential to comprehend and conceive the Creator's knowledge. This was the intent of the prophet's [Isaiah 55:8] statements: "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways, My ways."

Accordingly, we do not have the potential to conceive how The Holy One, blessed be He, knows all the creations and their deeds. However, this is known without any doubt: That man's actions are in his [own] hands and The Holy One, blessed be He, does not lead him [in a particular direction] or decree that he do anything.​

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YoursTrue said:

Since I accept and believe the Bible on this account (meaning creation), I have decided to go with what Moses wrote in reference to creation at this point, and make no big assertions regarding blue vs brown eyes, etc. if you understand what I'm saying. Shalom.

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Ehav4Ever said:

Given that Mosheh ben-Amram spoke and transcribed the Torah in a form of Hebrew that is several thousand years old you have to accept that there are some modern terms that can easily be no different than terms used in the Torah.

Essentially, you asked about evolution - a term that on its own can easily mean 30 different things depending on who you talk to. In order to address a question about a topic I need to know what you know about it. Have you heard about Micro-Evolution and Macro-Evolution?

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YoursTrue said:

Yes, to an extent. I'll take a guess without looking it up now. Micro is the tiny incremental changes made over lots of time, while macro is sudden(?) large changes.

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Ehav4Ever said:

Okay. So, now see the below. The graphic is from the Sciencing web-site. The information is similar to information found in discussions about the Torah from Torath Mosheh Jews for the 2,000+ years. The yellow highlighted section is information where some Torath Mosheh Jewish sources would word it differently or propose a bit of a different path. At the end of the day whichever view a Torah Mosheh takes on this topic the agreement is that the ability and the parameters that are proven to be true in reality were put in place by Hashem from the start.

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Ehav4Ever said:

Given that Mosheh ben-Amram spoke and transcribed the Torah in a form of Hebrew that is several thousand years old you have to accept that there are some modern terms that can easily be no different than terms used in the Torah.

Essentially, you asked about evolution - a term that on its own can easily mean 30 different things depending on who you talk to. In order to address a question about a topic I need to know what you know about it. Have you heard about Micro-Evolution and Macro-Evolution?

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YoursTrue said:

Yes, beyond comprehension on a "scientific" level, ..

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YoursTrue said:

I was recently looking at a program about birds. Well, I never was really too interested in birds, but as I watched the program (Public Broadcast System here in the U.S.), I was overwhelmed with awe, how the Almighty built these instincts, wing span, dancing/mating processes and more into birds. Yes, beyond comprehension on a "scientific" level, but again - life itself testifies to a Creator. So thanks for that.

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YoursTrue said:

The question has arisen from some here that Moses did not "write" the book of Genesis. As I understand it, he could certainly have had knowledge from Shem and others relating what they knew or heard from ancestors. (I believe that. And I look forward to meeting Moses someday, even Seth and hear them talk about that...or write about that, depending....)

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