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‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
clara17 said:
Tehee. Thats adorable. I think it may have been tried once or twice before.
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This is a new age and unlike any age we have seen before and Bahaulah put in place what will be needed to prevent corruption.
clara17 said:
I think he meant exactly what he said.

The elements will dissolve (2 Peter 3:10)
I am looking at a pencil right now, so that one can't have happened yet.

The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (1 Cor 15:26)
Is there still death? I just checked the obituaries and there were a few deaths last week.
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I do not interpret 2 Peter 3:10 literally, I interpret it figuratively.
I believe that 1 Cor 15:26 is referring to spiritual death, not physical death. Any other interpretation is absurd because physical death was never intended to be eliminated since physical bodies were created to be mortal.
clara17 said:
Did this happen in 1844 when Baha unsealed the book? Or is is slated for the future.
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It happened from 1844 - 1892, as the Bab and Baha'u'llah unsealed the Book in their Writings by explaining what much of the Bible means.
clara17 said:
So he disagrees with the Bible where it says Heaven and earth will pass away? Rev 6:14 and Rev 21:1?
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Again, I do not interpret these verses literally, I interpret them figuratively. What will pass away is the old earth (the old world order on earth). What will rise in its stead is the new world order.

Revelation 21 New Heaven and New Earth
King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I believe those verses above pertain to the new Law of God, sent down from God out of heaven. Law of God refers to the Revelation of God. It is also interesting to note that Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof is where Baha'u'llah appeared and pitched His tent, and it is also where the Baha'i World Centre is located, atop Mt. Carmel.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.

In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
 
Kelly of the Phoenix

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
F1fan said:
Are you asking why God shouldn't have created a world with deadly bacteria and virus? Or deadly predators like lions and alligators that kill many humans? Seriously, do we humans need to be attacked by sharks when we win in the ocean? Sharks have been around for 25 million years, while we humans have only been around for about 150,000 years, maybe sharks and bacteria are Gods chosen and humans are just food for them.


Well yeah, if we humans are special. Shouldn't God intervene if a shark attacks us? After all, other humans have intervened to save another human. What's God's problem?


If you are drowning and there is someone in a boat just watching you drown, is that a good and moral person?

It seems you don't really think through your questions here.


No one is asking for paradise, they are just asking to not create humans that conspire with each other to round up, imprison, and murder a large religious group on the continent. Would it have been too hard for God to not create Adolph Hitler? Hitler survived two close calls in the trenches of WW1. One was a fortunate trip to get coffee for his fellow soldiers, all of who died when an artillery shell hit them. Another was a mustard gas attack, and he ended up in a hospital for weeks. Hitler also survived 44 assassination attempts, some were total luck. So it seems God protected Hitler if anything.


Almost as if we aren't any more special than any other animal, in a universe where a God doesn't exist as some humans believe.


I suggest the mockery is theists who insist humans are special, yet we observe humans being subject to the same conditions as any other animal.


Yet the problem isn't most people. It's a select few who were born with mental defects and flaws that makes them do horrible things for their own power and satisfaction. the question is why God made these evil people that the rest of us have to deal with, and often aren't able to because these clever people attract so many followers who will do their bidding. Why does your God create Hitlers? If evil is a problem, don't create problems.
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With great power comes great responsibility. Yahweh is Peter Parker crying over Ben’s corpse because he chose not to intervene.
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
MonkeyFire said:
I dont care about your opinion.
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But it is such excellent opinion.

Believe or stop existing, literally there is no hope without.
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This describes a fragile mind that is dependent on belief in some ideology because it lacks its own confidence and strength. Have you even questioned why you need hope? Do you feel helpless?

Its in black and white.
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Why some people need to believe in irrational concepts is pretty well explained. Believers know what they believe and will talk and talk and talk. But religious believers don't themselves understand WHY they need to believe what they do. They are simply following their natural innate behavior which is how humans evolved. They tend to subconsciously mimic other theists around them, and adopt those beliefs. There is no contemplation and rational decision that comes first.

The evolutionary purpose was to build social cohesion and trust through tribalism. Mutual belief was an advantage for survival. Mimicking and mirroring behaviors builds trust and belonging.
 
MonkeyFire

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
F1fan said:
But it is such excellent opinion.


This describes a fragile mind that is dependent on belief in some ideology because it lacks its own confidence and strength. Have you even questioned why you need hope? Do you feel helpless?


Why some people need to believe in irrational concepts is pretty well explained. Believers know what they believe and will talk and talk and talk. But religious believers don't themselves understand WHY they need to believe what they do. They are simply following their natural innate behavior which is how humans evolved. They tend to subconsciously mimic other theists around them, and adopt those beliefs. There is no contemplation and rational decision that comes first.

The evolutionary purpose was to build social cohesion and trust through tribalism. Mutual belief was an advantage for survival. Mimicking and mirroring behaviors builds trust and belonging.
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Do you not want to love?
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
DNB said:
If your god is in the rain, then he isn't omnipotent.
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I never mentioned a gender/sex about mine. And they are truly everywhere, in all matter, all things living, dead, and inanimate, pulling and tugging at the threads of the Cosmos.
As for god is in the rain, give it a thought. It's very short in length but great in depth.
 
Q

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
muhammad_isa said:
Umm .. OK.
I don't really think that that is the issue though here, is it?
Isn't it more about the whole set-up, rather than just considering individual cases?

I mean, if G-d wants to test us on a collective basis, for example.
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I'm the one who started the OP so I decide what the issue is. Is this case the issue is theists who claim that the reason god doesn't intervene in human affairs is because it would interfere with human free will and my response to such an argument. I'm still not certain where you stand on that issue.

It appears that you think the reason god doesn't intervene in human affairs is because he wants to test us collectively in some manner. That suggests to me that you don't agree with those who say it's because of god not wanting to violate free will.

As for the concept of a god testing us collectively, it makes me more than a bit nervous. I always hated it when teachers back in grade school would punish the whole class for the misdeeds of just a few students. I'd much rather be judged on my own personal actions and not the actions of people I have no control over.
 
YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
QuestioningMind said:
I suppose it could be said that evolution allows atrocities, but it wouldn't be very accurate since evolution is a process and not a conscious being with intent.

But I really don't see what that has to do with the OP, which is asking: Is the claim that some theists make that the reason god doesn't intervene to prevent atrocities is because it would violate human free will a valid argument?
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What it has to do with what you don't like (supposedlyl) about God permitting atrocities now, and I was thinking about this today, is that there are animal atrocities (one against the other) and human atrocities. In actuality, to be more distinct about the question about God allowing atrocities, free will is not exactly what many think it is. Not to get too far off the deep end, if a person decides to jump off the roof of a tall building, that would be his free will promoting him to do that. When it comes to discussing these things, I go kind of slowly. :) That's my free will. Is it my free will to die from what is called "natural causes"? No, it isn't. But if that happens, I can't help it. My will, free or not, will not stop the aging process. Again, I realize I'm not directly confronting the issue, but in a way I am. That's my free will speaking about this right now. Later for more possibilities. :)
P.S. I understand your question, and I am answering it in my way, the best way I can right now. So...with all that in mind, I hope you have a good night.
 
Q

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
I have been thinking more about this. If God put the serial killer's life to an end, wouldn't that be interfering with the killers will to live?
God taking him out would also be interfering with the serial killers free will to continue killing.
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I addressed that in my OP.

Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.
 
Q

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
YoursTrue said:
What it has to do with what you don't like (supposedlyl) about God permitting atrocities now, and I was thinking about this today, is that there are animal atrocities (one against the other) and human atrocities. In actuality, to be more distinct about the question about God allowing atrocities, free will is not exactly what many think it is. Not to get too far off the deep end, if a person decides to jump off the roof of a tall building, that would be his free will promoting him to do that. When it comes to discussing this things, I go kind of slowly. :) That's my free will. Is it my free will to die from what is called "natural causes"? No, it isn't.
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What it has to do with is what you don't like (supposedlyl) about God permitting atrocities

I haven't taken a stand on whether or not I like or dislike anything about god permitting atrocities. For some reason you've just assumed that I have. The only thing I've taken a stand on is whether or not the argument that god allows atrocities because he can't interfere in human free will stands up to scrutiny.
 
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