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Substantiating Transubstantiation.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
At first or second glance many of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church seem suspect. For instance, initially, Mariology is difficult to distinguish from idolatry. And yet understood properly (see final paragraph, page 3, of, Notre ADam[e]) Mariology turns out to engage one of the deepest, most unknown, distorted, truths in the entire scripture (i.e., the actual gender of the first human). The doctrine of Transubstantiation is like that. On the surface it appear to be religious idolatry par excellent; some sort of cult initiation devoid of legitimate, rationalizable, factuality. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Transubstantiation, unwrapped and unwound, is probably the greatest revelation of scientific truth ever handled or perceived, guarded or intuited, by any of the sons of man. All of mankind will one day thank Pope Paul VI for protecting the doctrine from the watering down attempted prior to his encyclical, Mysterium fide, through which the original dogma is guarded.



John
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Transubstantiation, unwrapped and unwound, is probably the greatest revelation of scientific truth ever handled or perceived, guarded or intuited, by any of the sons of man.

Transubstantiation has nothing to do with science, nor do I think the Catholic Church even claims it does.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Is that your dogma? And is it based solely on faith? :D



John

No, transubstantiation is the Catholic Church's dogma. :)

Stated more clearly, science is a method of gathering empirical data to form conclusions about what the world is like. Transubstantiation is a dogma that literally says that the empirical data about the bread and wine at communion is not to be trusted and we should believe that they are actually completely different than what the empirical data shows.

So again - transubstantiation has nothing to do with science.
 
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lukethethird

unknown member
At first or second glance many of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church seem suspect. For instance, initially, Mariology is difficult to distinguish from idolatry. And yet understood properly (see final paragraph, page 3, of, Notre ADam[e]) Mariology turns out to engage one of the deepest, most unknown, distorted, truths in the entire scripture (i.e., the actual gender of the first human). The doctrine of Transubstantiation is like that. On the surface it appear to be religious idolatry par excellent; some sort of cult initiation devoid of legitimate, rationalizable, factuality. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Transubstantiation, unwrapped and unwound, is probably the greatest revelation of scientific truth ever handled or perceived, guarded or intuited, by any of the sons of man. All of mankind will one day thank Pope Paul VI for protecting the doctrine from the watering down attempted prior to his encyclical, Mysterium fide, through which the original dogma is guarded.



John
Why, was someone suggesting otherwise?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Stated more clearly, science is a method of gathering empirical data to form conclusions about what the world is like. Transubstantiation is a dogma that literally says that the empirical data about the bread and wine at communion is not to be trusted and we should believe that they are actually completely different than what the empirical data shows.

For quite some time people believed the earth was the center of the solar system, and that it was flat. And empirical evidence suggested that was the case.

Similarly, most people believe the host and the wine are, well, bread and wine. And empirical evidence suggests that's the case.

Sometimes empirical evidence isn't all it's cracked up to be.



John
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
For quite some time people believed the earth was the center of the solar system, and that it was flat. And empirical evidence suggested that was the case.

And the only reason we believe differently now is because more empirical evidence was collected that demonstrated otherwise.

Sometimes empirical evidence isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Your own attempt at a counterexample suggests otherwise.

You are literally rationalizing believing things that are completely contrary to all available evidence. Think for a moment of you really want to walk down that road. What if we're talking about some evidence-free dogma that contradicts your religion? Shall we believe that too?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Transubstantiation, unwrapped and unwound, is probably the greatest revelation of scientific truth ever handled or perceived, guarded or intuited, by any of the sons of man. All of mankind will one day thank Pope Paul VI for protecting the doctrine from the watering down attempted prior to his encyclical, Mysterium fide, through which the original dogma is guarded.

Trent dogmatized transubstantiation---change from one substance to another. Trent did not dogmatize Aristotle.

The basic objection to the Catholic doctrine of the real presence is not that it is against Scripture, but that it is against reason. The words of Jesus seem plain enough. “This is my body.” This is my blood.” “Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you do not have life in you.” “My flesh is real food, my blood is real drink.” When some of his disciples complained, “This is a hard saying; who can accept it?”, he didn’t explain that he had not been speaking literally in saying he would give his body to eat and his blood to drink. Instead he let them go. As St. John tells us, many left him because they would not accept this teaching.
Jesus words are not interpreted non-literally because that is the obvious way to interpret them, but because a literal interpretation seems to be repugnant to reason.

The dogma of transubstantiation teaches that the whole substance of bread is changed into that of Christ’s body, and the whole substance of wine into that of his blood, leaving the accidents of bread and wine unaffected. Reason, of course, can’t prove that this happens. But it is not evidently against reason either; it is above reason. Our senses, being confined to phenomena, cannot detect the change; we know it only by faith in God’s word.
Transubstantiation and Reason (therealpresence.org)

In progressive Roman Catholic theologians, a few like Edward
Schillebeeckx suggested alternatives to transubstantiation. Transfinalization, originally proposed under this terminology by Protestant theologian Franz Leenhardt, looked at the reality of a thing according to the finality of the thing as intended by its creator!

Another theory, that of transignification!
The basic philosophical idea behind it was that significance or meaning is a constitutive element of reality as it is known to human beings, and this is especially true of human realities like attitudes and relationships! Such human realities are known through the meaning those actions have for people! with this background, it was suggested that Christ, at the Last Supper, changed the meaning, or significance of both a Jewish ritual as well as that of the bread and wine! and since meaning is here conceived of as a constituent element of such human realities, the bread and
wine have a new objective reality embodying the presence of Christ! under this theory, the reality of the bread and wine is changed during the mass not in any physical way but in a way which is nonetheless real, for as soon as they signify the body and blood of Christ they become sacramental, embodying and revealing Christ's presence in a way which is experienceably sic real! In other words, when the meaning of the elements
changes, their reality changes for those who have faith in Christ and accept the new meaning that he gave them, whereas for those without faith and who are unaware of their divinely given meaning, they appear to remain bread and wine!

It was in response to these and other theologians that in September of 1965, Pope Paul VI promulgated his encyclical Mysterium fidei
in which he set clear limits to these new theories concerning the Eucharistic change and proposed the perennial validity of the traditional categories! The Pope writes;
We can see that some of those who are dealing with this Most Holy Mystery in speech and writing are disseminating opinions. . .on the dogma of transubstantiation that are disturbing the minds of the faithful and causing them no small measure of confusion about matters of faith, just as if it were all right for someone to take doctrine that has already been defined by the Church and consign it to oblivion or else interpret it in such away as to weaken the genuine meaning of the words or the recognized force of the concepts involved. To give an example of what We are talking about, it is not permissible. . . to concentrate on the notion of sacramental sign as if the symbolism—which no one will deny is certainly present in the Most Blessed Eucharist—fully expressed and exhausted the manner of Christ's presence in this Sacrament; or to discuss the mystery of transubstantiation without mentioning what the Council of Trent had to say about the marvelous conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body and the whole substance of the wine into the Blood of Christ, as if they involve nothing more than "transignification," or "transfinalization" as they call it. . . .
(DOC) The Sacramental Theology of Edward Schillebeeckx | Mike Brummond - Academia.edu
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The words of Jesus seem plain enough. “This is my body.” This is my blood.” “Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you do not have life in you.” “My flesh is real food, my blood is real drink.” When some of his disciples complained, “This is a hard saying; who can accept it?”, he didn’t explain that he had not been speaking literally in saying he would give his body to eat and his blood to drink. Instead he let them go. As St. John tells us, many left him because they would not accept this teaching. Jesus words are not interpreted non-literally because that is the obvious way to interpret them, but because a literal interpretation seems to be repugnant to reason.

What about John 6:61-63?

Doth this [my saying you must eat my flesh and drink my blood] offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.​

Jesus appears to be saying his words are his flesh and blood. You must believe, swallow, what he says; for "the [literal] flesh profiteth nothing." He seems to be insinuating that his words are "spirit" (represented by blood), and life (represented by flesh).



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The dogma of transubstantiation teaches that the whole substance of bread is changed into that of Christ’s body, and the whole substance of wine into that of his blood, leaving the accidents of bread and wine unaffected. Reason, of course, can’t prove that this happens. But it is not evidently against reason either; it is above reason. Our senses, being confined to phenomena, cannot detect the change; we know it only by faith in God’s word.
Transubstantiation and Reason (therealpresence.org)

When Jesus instituted the Eucharist he said to do it to remember him. He seemed to imply that it was a symbolic memorial and not a literal transfiguration of his flesh into the host, and his blood into the wine. Most Christian denominations practice it as a ritual remembrance of Jesus and not a literal transmutation of his flesh into bread, and his blood into wine.

My argument isn't that the Roman Catholic dogma of transubstantiation is correct in implying that the host and the wine become the literal flesh and blood of Jesus, but that something is hidden in the dogma that is extremely valuable in order to unlock not only exegetical nuances of the entire scripture, but that it also reveals some metaphysical principles that are missing in most understandings of philosophy and science.

In this sense, practicing it as though the host and the wine are literal transmutations of Jesus' flesh and blood into the food and the drink could be an idolatry covering up the true transformative power of what's hidden in the dogma. Nevertheless, I'm arguing that by practicing the dogma even in a quasi-idolatrous way, Roman Catholicism is recognizing a deeper meaning to the ritual than the other Christian denominations realize exist in the teaching. In that, the Roman Catholic dogma of transubstantiation could be guarding something utterly lost or ignored, or completely unknown, in the other denominations.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
T

In progressive Roman Catholic theologians, a few like Edward
Schillebeeckx suggested alternatives to transubstantiation. Transfinalization, originally proposed under this terminology by Protestant theologian Franz Leenhardt, looked at the reality of a thing according to the finality of the thing as intended by its creator!

Another theory, that of transignification!
The basic philosophical idea behind it was that significance or meaning is a constitutive element of reality as it is known to human beings, and this is especially true of human realities like attitudes and relationships! Such human realities are known through the meaning those actions have for people! with this background, it was suggested that Christ, at the Last Supper, changed the meaning, or significance of both a Jewish ritual as well as that of the bread and wine! and since meaning is here conceived of as a constituent element of such human realities, the bread and
wine have a new objective reality embodying the presence of Christ! under this theory, the reality of the bread and wine is changed during the mass not in any physical way but in a way which is nonetheless real, for as soon as they signify the body and blood of Christ they become sacramental, embodying and revealing Christ's presence in a way which is experienceably sic real! In other words, when the meaning of the elements
changes, their reality changes for those who have faith in Christ and accept the new meaning that he gave them, whereas for those without faith and who are unaware of their divinely given meaning, they appear to remain bread and wine!

It was in response to these and other theologians that in September of 1965, Pope Paul VI promulgated his encyclical Mysterium fidei
in which he set clear limits to these new theories concerning the Eucharistic change and proposed the perennial validity of the traditional categories! The Pope writes;
We can see that some of those who are dealing with this Most Holy Mystery in speech and writing are disseminating opinions. . .on the dogma of transubstantiation that are disturbing the minds of the faithful and causing them no small measure of confusion about matters of faith, just as if it were all right for someone to take doctrine that has already been defined by the Church and consign it to oblivion or else interpret it in such away as to weaken the genuine meaning of the words or the recognized force of the concepts involved. To give an example of what We are talking about, it is not permissible. . . to concentrate on the notion of sacramental sign as if the symbolism—which no one will deny is certainly present in the Most Blessed Eucharist—fully expressed and exhausted the manner of Christ's presence in this Sacrament; or to discuss the mystery of transubstantiation without mentioning what the Council of Trent had to say about the marvelous conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body and the whole substance of the wine into the Blood of Christ, as if they involve nothing more than "transignification," or "transfinalization" as they call it. . . .
(DOC) The Sacramental Theology of Edward Schillebeeckx | Mike Brummond - Academia.edu

The points noted above are all legitimate parts of the reality of the doctrine. The quotation from the Pope supports my argument that no matter how the dogma is received, or practiced, it contains information that needs to be guarded; and part and parcel of that guarding requires that it not be abstracted into merely a remembrance with no more significance than something that's wholly ritual.

Better to practice a ritual wrong, if it guards whats hidden in the ritual, than abstract the ritual away into meaningless ritual oblivion (as could be argued to have happened in the other Christian denominations).

I need to read more concerning Franz Leenhardt's opinion since it appears to be the closest to what I have to say about the dogma.




John
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Most Christian denominations practice it as a ritual remembrance of Jesus and not a literal transmutation of his flesh into bread, and his blood into wine.

The entire Council of Trent was in defense against the Reformation and the devalued meaning of the reality 'symbol'.
1 Corinthians 10:16-17, which states, “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.” Paul also warns of 'food offered to idols. “You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.”
The table of the Lord and the table of demons are incompatible with one another because Christians believe that partaking of the bread and cup is a participation in Christ, while pagans believed that partaking in food offered to idols or demons is partnering with the demon. By eating the food offered, both groups believe they are becoming one with the entity worshiped.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Stated more clearly, science is a method of gathering empirical data to form conclusions about what the world is like.

That might be what many people believe to be the case. I don't. And neither did one of the greatest historians concerning the development and evolution of the scientific method:

The doctrine that empirical sciences are reducible to sense perceptions, and thus to our experiences, is one which many accept as obvious beyond all question. However, this doctrine stands or falls with inductive logic, and is here rejected along with it.

Sir Karl Popper.​

And:

The belief that science proceeds from observation to theory is still so widely and so firmly held that my denial of it is often met with incredulity. I have even been suspected of being insincere - of denying what nobody in his senses can doubt. . . .But in fact the belief that we can start with pure observations alone, without anything in the nature of a theory, is absurd.

Sir Karl Popper.​



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
And the only reason we believe differently now is because more empirical evidence was collected that demonstrated otherwise.

Did the evidence just magically appear . . . and to everyone at once . . . or did some person or persons go looking for evidence to justify a hunch or hypothesis?

If the latter, where did the hunch or hypothesis come from?

You are literally rationalizing believing things that are completely contrary to all available evidence.

That's what Karl Popper said all scientists do; pursue evidence to prove theories that are counter-intuitive to uninterpreted (or wrongly interpreted) sensory data.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
6:62 seems obscure, possible a reference to 49-51, Jesus claims to be the bread that comes down from heaven which provokes incredulity. Jesus is pictured as asking what his disciples will say when he goes up to heaven.

There's clearly a parallel between Jesus saying he's the bread of life, and his follow-up that you must eat him.

So John 6:62 doesn't appear to be obscure at all. Jesus called himself bread, which must be eaten, which offended many, so that Jesus asks his inner cadre if they too are offended, such that they say, in a manner of speaking, heck yeah! How do we eat you?

He responds that he's speaking metaphorically. It's his teaching they must swallow, the spirit of his teaching, which is like the blood of his teaching, and the words of his teaching, which are like the body the spirit indwells.

He adds that the actual, biological, flesh, counts for nothing.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The entire Council of Trent was in defense against the Reformation and the devalued meaning of the reality 'symbol'.
1 Corinthians 10:16-17, which states, “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?

The Eucharist is no doubt a participation in the "blood" of Christ. And in a Jewish framework, the blood of the sacrifice represents its soul or spirit. The life of the animal-sacrifice is in the blood. And if that blood is outside of the body, it represents death.

So we participate in Jesus' death when we participate in his blood.

But we don't die physically as he did when his physical blood was shed. We share in his death symbolically, and cognitively. We believe that by sharing in his death willingly, figuratively, and ritually, we will share in his resurrection willingly, figuratively, and eventually literally.

Transubstantiation represents a philosophical, or metaphysical, scientific proposition: does faith have the power to literally transform wine to blood?

What is gained if the wine is actual blood versus metaphorical blood? If the person swallowing it has the same dedication whether it's ritual or figurative what is gained by saying it's literal rather than figurative? If there's no experiment, or scientific evidence that the wine transmutes into actual blood, what's gained by believing it is, since the belief in the proposition contained in the ritual doesn't appear as though it would gain one iota from the blood being believed to be literal blood rather than metaphorical blood?

If we tested the wine in the stomach, and then in the veins, we would find wine and not blood. So where does the literalness of the blood inhere if not in the mind. And if it's accepted there, what difference does it make if it's actual wine in the stomach and the veins?



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
At first or second glance many of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church seem suspect. For instance, initially, Mariology is difficult to distinguish from idolatry. And yet understood properly (see final paragraph, page 3, of, Notre ADam[e]) Mariology turns out to engage one of the deepest, most unknown, distorted, truths in the entire scripture (i.e., the actual gender of the first human). The doctrine of Transubstantiation is like that. On the surface it appear to be religious idolatry par excellent; some sort of cult initiation devoid of legitimate, rationalizable, factuality. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Transubstantiation, unwrapped and unwound, is probably the greatest revelation of scientific truth ever handled or perceived, guarded or intuited, by any of the sons of man. All of mankind will one day thank Pope Paul VI for protecting the doctrine from the watering down attempted prior to his encyclical, Mysterium fide, through which the original dogma is guarded.

Contrary to the belief implanted throughout contemporary secular education, modern science is not an agnostic or atheistic/materialist product evolved out of distrust of Judeo/Christian theorizing (see Harvard Professor or Evolutionary Biology, Joseph Henrich's, The WEIRDEST People in the World.) Quite the contrary, it's a direct product of the Judeo-Christian thought from which the modern science of the Western world arose.

All of Western thought, be it scientific, artistic, philosophical, economic, or theological, is informed and carries around within it the ideas found throughout Judeo-Christian scriptures. We see this in capitalistic economics, all Western religious thought, philosophy, and science.

Though generally speaking we can legitimately speak of Judeo-Christian thought more generally, it's true to note that the pinnacle of Western modernism grew more specifically out of first Roman Catholicism, and then later, the Protestant Revolution.

The Catechism of the Catholic church states that of all the beliefs and rituals around which the Western church revolves, the Eucharist, with the Roman Catholic dogma of transubstantiation, is the most central, the highest peak, of Roman Catholic thought. It's the ritual of rituals so far as Christian faith is concerned.



John
 
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