Joshua - The Christ View of Jesus.

KenS said:

Rom 8:33 Who then would dare to accuse those whom God has chosen in love to be his? God himself is the judge who has issued his final verdict over them—“Not guilty!”

Boy, you sure are full of the good-news gospel!

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As for your reliance on the false prophet Paul, that foundation is addressed in Matthew 7:24-27, in which any house not built on acting on Yeshua's words will fall. Apparently that house will fall due to rain, floods, and wind. I don't know, but yesterday there was a lot of wind, rain and flooding, which could be a physical indication that the time is at hand. As for Romans 8:33, and Paul's followers being the "elect", well yes, they were elected in Zechariah 11:7, to be the "flock doomed for slaughter", and in Hosea 3, as being the adulteress bought by for the equivalence of 30 pieces of silver. As for the actual "elect", even they will have to go through the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:22). And Yeshua's message was not that the wicked/sinners would be saved, but that the "wicked", those who commit lawlessness", would be gathered "first" and thrown into the furnace of fire. (Matthew 13:30-50). The kingdom of God is based on "justice" and "righteousness" (Isaiah 28:15-18), whereas the "covenant with death shall be canceled". The covenant with death, in which the serpent says you shall surely not die (Genesis 3:4), is in parallel with Paul's comment that we shall not all sleep/die. Well of course Paul and all his contemporaries died. And his non contemporaries will die also. And yes, for the suffering, due to their sins, they may look as death as being "good news". (Revelation 9:6).

2ndpillar said:

There is a big "if" in your analysis. Yeshua is not God, as was falsely determined at the Council of Nicaea, in 325 AD, convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine, the Pontifex Maximus at the time, who was the "beast with two horns like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11), but "My servant David" is to be the king/shepherd that the Lord God will set over the combined house of Israel (Ezekiel 34:23 & 37:24 & Zechariah 14:16), and who will rule over nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). The Torah teaches that Israel must keep God's Law Hosea 8:1, or they would be over run. The "trust in God", is that God will keep his promises. The message to Judah & Ephraim, was that they would be under judgement for transgressing "the covenant", until they confessed their sins (Hosea 5 -6) and that they would after 2 days (2000 years), restore the fortunes of My people (Hosea 6:11 & Joel 3:1), and bring the judgment upon the nations (Hosea 3:2).

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The NT contains numerous statements and inferences that Yeshua is God. Per the Bible, I trust HIM for salvation.

dybmh said:

... and ...

1 Kings 2:3 And keep the charge of the LORD your God to walk in His ways and to keep His statutes, commandments, ordinances, and decrees, as is written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you turn,

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I didn't say "prosper in what you do". I said "trust God for salvation (eternal life)."

Both testaments urge believers to follow the Law for many reasons, both testaments urge the reader/listener to trust God, not works of Torah, for eternal life.

"Those who trust in the LORD are as Mount Zion, which cannot be moved but ABIDES FOREVER. As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the LORD surrounds His people from this time forth and FOREVER."

BilliardsBall said:

I didn't say "prosper in what you do". I said "trust God for salvation (eternal life)."

Both testaments urge believers to follow the Law for many reasons, both testaments urge the reader/listener to trust God, not works of Torah, for eternal life.

"Those who trust in the LORD are as Mount Zion, which cannot be moved but ABIDES FOREVER. As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the LORD surrounds His people from this time forth and FOREVER."

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We've been through this before... Psalm 119. It's foolish to ignore this entire Psalm in favor of a single verse. What a person does with eternal life matters.

dybmh said:

We've been through this before... Psalm 119. It's foolish to ignore this entire Psalm in favor of a single verse. What a person does with eternal life matters.

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The Tanakh also describes eternal death and judgment. Not everyone de facto has eternal life.

And God is the God of Gentiles also, not Jews only. He has a message for them that has been delivered unto billions through Yeshua the Messiah.

BilliardsBall said:

The Tanakh also describes eternal death and judgment. Not everyone de facto has eternal life.

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1) I'm responding to your post where you cited a verse which says, "Those who trust in the lord abide forever". And... with that gift a Jewish person is required to adhere to the commandments. That's the point. If not, then, depending on the circumstances they will be cut off and lose their eternal life.

2) Do you have support for the idea of **eternal death** from Tanach? Tanach is the common ground for this discussion.

BilliardsBall said:

And God is the God of Gentiles also, not Jews only. He has a message for them that has been delivered unto billions through Yeshua the Messiah.

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I don't disagree with the first part. However, the second part, if the message discontinues the commandments, it's not from Tanach. And as I said previously, that is the common ground.

BilliardsBall said:

The NT contains numerous statements and inferences that Yeshua is God. Per the Bible, I trust HIM for salvation.

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Good for you. You now stand with the "many" (Matthew 7:13), based on the NT, compiled and edited by a daughter of Babylon. According to Revelation 14, you can hold on to your plagues, until you come out of "her", the daughter of Babylon. Don't worry though, the government (beast) will have your back, and pay for all of your procedures and medication, regardless of the adverse reactions. School district warns parents of 'sudden cardiac arrest' in students (wnd.com)
And what are you being saved from. You surely will die (Jeremiah 31:30). As for the "saved" of Joel 2:32, the correct terminology is "delivered", such as "escape", and refers to those in Jerusalem and on Mount Zion. I think your doctrinal foundation, under scrutiny, is crumbling, and ready to give way.

dybmh said:

1) I'm responding to your post where you cited a verse which says, "Those who trust in the lord abide forever". And... with that gift a Jewish person is required to adhere to the commandments. That's the point. If not, then, depending on the circumstances they will be cut off and lose their eternal life.

"kareth is a form of punishment which may mean premature death, or else exclusion from the people.

Examples of sins making a person liable to kareth include eating chametz on Passover,[6] sexual violations,[7] ritual impurities, and a man's refusal to be circumcised.[8] The Book of Numbers states that anyone who sins deliberately or high-handedly receives kareth.[9]"

Kareth - Wikipedia
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2) Do you have support for the idea of **eternal death** from Tanach? Tanach is the common ground for this discussion.

I don't disagree with the first part. However, the second part, if the message discontinues the commandments, it's not from Tanach. And as I said previously, that is the common ground.

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Dan 12: “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

BilliardsBall said:

Dan 12: “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

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Not exactly the same as eternal death; nice try

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Notice that those who are in everlasting contempt "will awake". So they're not eternally dead.

BilliardsBall said:

We have access to source manuscripts for both testaments that are centuries older than the whore of Rome. No.

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The "whore/Harlet of Rome", is initiated by the beast with two horns like a lamb, the Roman emperor Constantine, who built a basilica for both the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17), Peter, and the false prophet Paul, who are the two horns, Christ like leaders, who are primary sources for the NT.

dybmh said:

Not exactly the same as eternal death; nice try

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Notice that those who are in everlasting contempt "will awake". So they're not eternally dead.

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All those in the earth will arise for the white throne judgement, which occurs after the millennium. They will be judged, and those not written the book of life, would be thrown into the furnace of fire (Revelation 20:12-15). No one is eternally dead until they are thrown into the lake of fire, the "second death". But the dead in spirit, are considered as the "walking dead" while they still eat, drink and be merry, until the sky falls (Revelation 17:21).

BilliardsBall said:

We have access to source manuscripts for both testaments that are centuries older than the whore of Rome. No.

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Never heard of the whore of Rome. DId you mean the whore of Babylon? And who exactly are you saying this is?

2ndpillar said:

All those in the earth will arise for the white throne judgement, which occurs after the millennium. They will be judged, and those not written the book of life, would be thrown into the furnace of fire (Revelation 20:12-15). No one is eternally dead until they are thrown into the lake of fire, the "second death". But the dead in spirit, are considered as the "walking dead" while they still eat, drink and be merry, until the sky falls (Revelation 17:21).

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The challenge is to find evidence of "eternal death" in Tanach.

BilliardsBall said:

We have access to source manuscripts for both testaments that are centuries older than the whore of Rome. No.

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And you actually believe in that bigoted canard that's supposedly a reference to the Catholic Church? I grew up listening to and reading trash like that in the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in, thus leaving that church in my mid-20's.

It doesn't make one iota of sense if one does their homework and then thinks it through.

2ndpillar said:

The "whore/Harlet of Rome", is initiated by the beast with two horns like a lamb, the Roman emperor Constantine, who built a basilica for both the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17), Peter, and the false prophet Paul, who are the two horns, Christ like leaders, who are primary sources for the NT.

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That's illogical nonsense as this was written in the late 1st century whereas Constantine didn't convert until the 4th century. If your church teaches you such bigotry, then maybe look for a church that doesn't stoop so low.

For those unfamiliar with this, here:
The "great whore" of the Book of Revelation is featured in chapter 17:
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
15 And he said unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.
— Revelation 17:1–18

From Wikipedia:
Caroline Vander Stichele (2000) demonstrated that the narrative of the Whore of Babylon follows many of the same patterns of the personification of capital cities as women who commit "prostitution / whoredom" and/or "adultery" in the prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. These capital cities, representing the states they govern, are alleged to have committed various sins that have rendered them sexually promiscuous, and therefore they will eventually be annihilated through various well-deserved violent punishments sent by the Israelite God Yahweh.[6] -- Whore of Babylon - Wikipedia

The Whore is associated with the Beast of Revelation by connection with an equally evil kingdom.[citation needed] The word "Whore" can also be translated metaphorically as "Idolatress".[1] The Whore's apocalyptic downfall is prophesied to take place in the hands of the image of the beast with seven heads and ten horns. There is much speculation within Christian eschatology on what the Whore and beast symbolize as well as the possible implications for contemporary interpretations.[2][3][4][5] -- Whore of Babylon - Wikipedia

dybmh said:

Not exactly the same as eternal death; nice try

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Notice that those who are in everlasting contempt "will awake". So they're not eternally dead.

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You created the term eternal death. Hell is eternal, conscious suffering.

2ndpillar said:

The "whore/Harlet of Rome", is initiated by the beast with two horns like a lamb, the Roman emperor Constantine, who built a basilica for both the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17), Peter, and the false prophet Paul, who are the two horns, Christ like leaders, who are primary sources for the NT.

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The NT in modern versions is sourced off much earlier texts--before Rome started the Catholic church.

Peter and Paul are not false teachers--they agree with both OT teaching and the gospels, fully.

BilliardsBall said:

You created the term eternal death

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Respectfully , please see your words below.

BilliardsBall said:

The Tanakh also describes eternal death and judgment.

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BilliardsBall said:

Hell is eternal, conscious suffering.

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Same challenge for "Hell is eternal", I dont think that comes from Tanach. But I could be wrong.

BilliardsBall said:

The NT in modern versions is sourced off much earlier texts--before Rome started the Catholic church.

Peter and Paul are not false teachers--they agree with both OT teaching and the gospels, fully.

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Paul's gospel of Grace/cross is to have the law nailed to the cross. Yeshua's gospel of the kingdom is to have the tares, those who commit lawlessness" (Matthew 13:40-41), cast into the furnace of fire. One is antithetical to the other. As for Peter and Paul, they are the "shepherds" taken to "pasture the flock doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7), who were named "Favor", because of Paul's false gospel of grace, and Peter called "Cords", because of several reasons, most obviously with regard to his manner of death. The other reason being that Peter's vision ended up separating Judah and Israel/Ephrain by newly imposed traditions (Zechariah 11:10-17 & 13:3-7)