Why do believers love God?

Lain · Dec 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I understand all of what you are saying, I really do, and I half-hardheartedly agree about some of it, but then I got to what you said above.

Why should we love God give their entire being to Him? Why do we owe God anything? I know what Christians believe, God gave His only Son, but I do not believe that was any sacrifice on God's part since God has the entire universe.

Do you completely miss all the suffering in this world and only see the good? I guess I don't get it and I never will. I really should have been an atheist as my husband always says. I do not think like a believer at all.

Truth be told, I wrote this thread over a month ago and it's original title was "Why I cannot forgive God."
I also write a thread I never posted entitled "What does religion do to people?"

It's not even about the Incarnation for me but simply that we exist. Perhaps the chief reason I think we should honor God by giving out being to Him without reservation is that He made us. This is most like the reason why we should honor our parents (fathers especially) because they made us. It is a relationship created just by existing to me. Not to mention being Commanded to in the case of God.

I see all of it, evils and goods. I think the chief thing is this: if one has experienced God's love or experienced His love of the world one can not help but see Him as loving and think at least that He should also be loved. It just gives one the same sense that Julian of Norwich had which is that: "all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well."

Such is my opinion at least.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
"to know God is to know unselfish unconditional love"
A human parent sacrifices for his children and thereby shows love. What does it cost God to love us? What is God sacrificing?
I think that people either believe the various scriptures that say that God loves everything He created or they don't believe them, but they don't make sense to me so I cannot believe them.

You're not alone in your thinking.
It cost God: the suffering and death of His Son.
Because all of us are born ' after ' father Adam sinned is why we all die. We can't stop sinning.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die.
And because we can't resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can resurrect us.
This is where Jesus enters the picture. Because sinless Jesus died a faithful death he can and will resurrect us.

Lain · Dec 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
With all due respect, that is just a faith-based belief, and it can never be proven.....
however, the evidence for that does not look good.

I think it is proven in every moment. Things exist therefore they are loved by God. To exist is good in itself, willing the good of another is love, therefore as things exist and are preserved in existence they are loved by God. The bottles on the floor in my room are loved, as am I and all things.

Such is my opinion at least.

Saint Frankenstein · Dec 12, 2021

Lain said:
To exist is good in itself,

I beg to differ.

savagewind · Dec 12, 2021

RestlessSoul · Dec 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I agree with all of what you said because it is logical, so do you think that is a reason to love God?

We can be angry with God, as we can be angry with people we love. I think it’s okay to have conflicted feelings.

But a life without love is no life at all imo, and if all life comes from God, then better it be filled with love, even if it is also filled with suffering.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 12, 2021

CG Didymus said:
If the Scriptures didn't tell them that God is love and should be loved, how would they even know?
And that's where this question comes in. In life what would give a person a reason to think that there is a loving God that should be worshipped and loved?
And especially for those that believe Satan is real. God creates a spirit being that harms and torments people? Only to one day destroy him? Plus, for those that believe the Adam and Eve story. God puts a tree in the middle of the garden, and a serpent to tempt them, then gets mad at them and curses them for disobeying him and eating the fruit? Is it love or a fear that God is going to cast them into hell?............................

God does Not cast anyone into 'biblical hell' ( man's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead )
Jesus and the OT both teach 'sleep' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Bible hell is just the temporary sleeping place for the un-conscious dead .
Dying is what places a person in the grave ( aka biblical hell til Resurrection Day )

Reason to think a loving God should be worshipped and loved is found in the teachings of Jesus.
Please notice that like Jesus, Satan was created with perfection - Ezekiel 28:13-16
Unlike Jesus, Satan then turned himself into Satan the Devil - James 1:13-15.
God did Not put un-named Satan there to tempt them but he was supposed to help them - Ezekiel 28:14.
Adam deliberately broke the known law of the land of Eden as found at Genesis 2:17.
By Adam deliberately breaking the law in effect Adam set up People Rule as superior to God Rule.
So, only the passing of time would prove who governs best, God or man ______
Mankind's history has proven man has dominated man to man's hurt, to man' injury.
Since man can't direct his own step is why God is going to have Jesus step in.
We choose to ' repent ' if we don't want to 'perish ' (be destroyed)- 2 Peter 3:9

RestlessSoul · Dec 12, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
I beg to differ.

You feel that way now, perhaps. But tomorrow, or tomorrow, or tomorrow, you will feel joy again. Sometimes you’ve just got to hang in there and trust that in the end, all will be well, and all manner of things will be well (Julian of Norwich).

TransmutingSoul · Dec 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Based upon what? (a), (b),or (c)?
How can we ever know that God is Love?

I knew there was a reason I put this in the General Religious Debates forum.

We can see the examples God has given us, the Messengers and in this age we have been gifted Abdul'baha.

Apart from the Messengers, no one has shown humanity such a selfless love as Abdul'baha to date. His whole life was serving others in preference of his own Self. That requires great detachment from this world, it requires Love on a scale we can only dream to emulate.

Those examples speak to our own hearts and we find that love when we too choose to serve humanity as they have.

It is up to us to find our balance on the path to finding what it is to Love.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Dec 12, 2021

URAVIP2ME said:
I find the adverse pain and suffering of both Job and Jesus faced is part of Satan's challenge even for us - Job 2:4-5
Touch our ' flesh'.... ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God, Not love God.
Both faithful Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan to be a liar and so can we.
That love will be answered when Jesus comes ! - Rev. 22:20
Jesus will bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, 'I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24.
Earth and its people will become healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

I see satan is my choice to turn away from God's Love, from the light towards the darkness. I see God allows those choices so we can learn from that choice.

Regards Tony

Evangelicalhumanist · Dec 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Why do believers love God?
Below are the multiple choices. You can pick one or more, or give me another reason I hadn't thought of.

(a) Because the scriptures of their religion tell them that God is good and they should love God
(b) Because they see objective evidence in the world that indicates to them that God is good and worthy of being loved
(c) Because they believe that God is good since God has been good to them in their lives
(d) None of the above because I don’t love God

The scriptures of my religion say that God created humans out of His love for us and that we are supposed to love God, because otherwise we cut ourselves off from God’s love.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.”

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

In all honesty I had to pick (d). Why can’t I love God?

First, I believe God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering where He knew people would suffer, often through no fault of their own. Not only that, the all-knowing God knew that some people would suffer much more than other people and I do not consider this fair and equitable.

Second, I believe that God determines fate for the most part, leaving very little room for any choices. Any free will that people have is circumscribed by many factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances, so many people cannot just make changes they would like to make. So many things are beyond our control, and it is God who determines much of our fate.

Third, on top of all of the above the Baha’i Writings say that God sends tests for our own perfection and we should be grateful for the tests. Because of the tests I have always endured, whether God is actually sending them or not, I keep looking over my shoulder waiting for another test.

Will the tests of this life ever end? Is God sending these tests on purpose or are they just part of life? If they are just part of life, why do some people get more tests than other people? I am supposed to believe I am favored by God because I am tested more than others so I will end up being stronger and more spiritual, but I cannot make myself believe that even if it is true, since there is no evidence that is or will be the case. All we have are scriptures that say that and I cannot believe based on scriptures when I see no objective evidence.

How can people love a God that is responsible for any or all of the above? It is my concerted opinion that the main reason people love God is because of (a) and (c) above but I cannot love God because scriptures tell me I should and I cannot love God based upon how good God has been to me, since I do not feel that has been the case, although I am willing to admit I might be wrong since my perceptions of my past and present life situation could be wrong.

I want to love God but I have to have a reason that makes sense to me, so I thought by starting this thread some people might give me some reasons that make sense to me.

Sincerely, Trailblazer.

Frankly, I suspect that many believers "love God" primarily because He promises to punish everybody who doesn't believe as they do for eternity, while promising that they themselves will get everything they ever wanted. (Just not here, and just not yet.)

Link · Dec 12, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Frankly, I suspect that many believers "love God" primarily because He promises to punish everybody who doesn't believe as they do for eternity, while promising that they themselves will get everything they ever wanted. (Just not here, and just not yet.)

Another way of phrasing that, is to say, believers don't want people who hate the true God to enter paradise (if they die in this state) and to be punished severely for it (if they die in this state). Of course, you see it that they just want people to believe as they do.

TransmutingSoul · Dec 12, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Frankly, I suspect that many believers "love God" primarily because He promises to punish everybody who doesn't believe as they do for eternity, while promising that they themselves will get everything they ever wanted. (Just not here, and just not yet.)

I can say that one with Faith prays that all may be immersed in God's Love, offering that we would sacrifice this life for that to be so.

At the same time, we would offer that love to all we meet. That does not mean we have to embrace and accept actions that are not based in Love, we can separate the action from the person.

Regards Tony

Evangelicalhumanist · Dec 12, 2021

Link said:
Another way of phrasing that, is to say, believers don't want people who hate the true God to enter paradise (if they die in this state) and to be punished severely for it (if they die in this state). Of course, you see it that they just want people to believe as they do.

Why, exactly, do you equate "not believe in God" with "hate the true God?"

Are these the same thing? Do you hate Santa Claus? Do you hate anti-gravity? Do you hate unicorns, pixies and banshees? Or do you just not believe in them?

Link · Dec 12, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Why, exactly, do you equate "not believe in God" with "hate the true God?"

Are these the same thing? Do you hate Santa Claus? Do you hate anti-gravity? Do you hate unicorns, pixies and banshees? Or do you just not believe in them?

From my perspective, it's all about spiritual seeing God which is through vision of love. Love is mystical, it can see truth and value based on it.

Doubt as far seeing God goes is a trick from Iblis, first rule of doubt, know when to stop doubting.

In a way, either apathy or toxicity type hate towards God is the reason for not seeing him in my view, "you don't hide yourself from creation except their actions are for other than you" (Imam Zainal Abideen (a)).

Trailblazer · Dec 12, 2021

RestlessSoul said:
I don’t think there’s ever been a satisfactory answer to the question, “why do bad things happen to good people?” So I don’t expect to learn the answer in this life.

There is no satisfactory answer for me either but I believe I will know more in the next life.

robocop (actually) · Dec 12, 2021

Trailblazer · Dec 12, 2021

CG Didymus said:
If the Scriptures didn't tell them that God is love and should be loved, how would they even know?

That is an excellent point. They is how they believe they know and they put all their faith in those Scriptures.

CG Didymus said:
And that's where this question comes in. In life what would give a person a reason to think that there is a loving God that should be worshipped and loved?

Nothing, except those Scriptures, and then they start to see the good things in the world and attribute them to those Scriptures while they ignore all the bad things they see. I call that blind faith.

CG Didymus said:
So, at least Baha'is don't believe all those things literally. But still, too much pain and suffering and apparent randomness in life to think there is a God in control and has a plan for the overall good for his creation. I'm with you. If there is a God, then he should be feared, and I don't mean with a reverential awe, but like a tyrannical king that can kill you, imprison you and make your life a living hell, but loved?

I'm with you on that one. God is to be feared, but I cannot love a God that created a world with so much suffering and allows so much suffering. Moreover, Good does not need our love because God has no needs, so the only reason to love God is so one can feel loved by God. I don't need to feel loved by God, it does not do anything for me. I have never understood people needing to feel loved by God.

CG Didymus said:
Actually, maybe I do believe in a good and bad type of spiritual thing going on. And the love, light and good spirit stuff is awesome. The negative, evil, bad stuff? Yeah, to make life what it is, it is necessary. But I would hope the "good", "loving" spirit stuff didn't created the negative, evil side.

I do not believe that God created the evil in the world, but God allows evil people to hurt good people, and God allows people to suffer for no fault of their own, through fate and predestination, so I cannot love such a God.

Trailblazer · Dec 12, 2021

Lain said:
It's not even about the Incarnation for me but simply that we exist. Perhaps the chief reason I think we should honor God by giving out being to Him without reservation is that He made us. This is most like the reason why we should honor our parents (fathers especially) because they made us. It is a relationship created just by existing to me. Not to mention being Commanded to in the case of God.

But what about people who do not want to exist?

Trailblazer · Dec 12, 2021

Lain said:
I think it is proven in every moment. Things exist therefore they are loved by God. To exist is good in itself,

I'm sorry, I cannot see it that way because it makes no logical sense to me.
To exist and suffer endlessly is not good. It would be better to not exist at all.

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