Are you waiting for any Fullfillment?

CG Didymus said:

Do we believe the gospel stories are accurate? Lots of people, including Baha'is don't. So, Jesus was killed and then what happened? The gospel stories say that some of his followers went to the tomb, but it was empty. Some versions have angels there. Some even have Jesus talking to Mary.

Click to expand...

The stories were compiled so the Essence of the Faith given by Jesus the Christ was recorded for future generations. Gods Will be done, not our will, is the greatest prayer.

I see the Bible as a Spiritual Story, not a material story.

So that is a choice we have 2000 years later. Are we looking for Christ in certainty of Spirit, or do we want to obtain to a material certainty to vindictive a point of view?

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

And we are continuing to learn. But what if all Jews accepted Jesus? What did that have to do with the religions like Hinduism and Buddhism? And was everybody to just drop their beliefs and submit to Islam? The beliefs are very different. Even with the Baha'i Faith, it is necessary to see things as interpreted by the Baha'i Faith. If the Baha'i Faith gets bigger and does influence more and more people, the other religions will adjust. But will the Baha'is ever be the dominant religion?

Click to expand...

They all have the same One God as the source. That alone is the required starting point.

All previous perceptions of faith find clarity in that Oneness.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

Okay, what do you believe that the Messiah do?

Click to expand...

I believe that the Messiah came to unite humanity into one common fold, just as Jesus promised.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121

CG Didymus said:

And why are their interpretations of their own Scriptures wrong? And which Scriptures are they misinterpreting?

Click to expand...

I believe they are misinterpreting their own scriptures. I believe they are wrong because they are still waiting for a Messiah who has already come.

CG Didymus said:

And where does it say the tribulations will continue after the Messiah comes?

Click to expand...

I don’t know where it says that in the Bible since that is not what I am basing my beliefs upon. Where do you think the Bible says that wars and rumors of wars will NOT continue and tribulations will NOT get worse after the Messiah comes? In other words, where in the Bible does it say that all the human caused problems will be instantaneously fixed as soon as the Messiah shows up on earth? Chapter and verse please.

CG Didymus said:

If it doesn't say that, then where does it say that things won't be fixed in the lifetime of the Messiah. And... I don't think Christians believe that there is such a thing as the "lifetime" of Jesus.

Click to expand...

It does not work that way. If the Bible doesn’t say that things WILL be fixed, there is no reason to believe that they WILL be fixed. That would be an assumption based upon nothing but what people want to believe.

Of course, Christians don’t believe there is such a thing as the lifetime of Jesus, since they believe He rose from the dead and is still alive in heaven. Surely Jesus is still alive in heaven, but in a spiritual body, not in a physical body.

CG Didymus said:

"Read your Bible"? What a thing to say. To that I'd say "K#%& My #$%^$^#@ %&@, but I'm trying hard to treat you with respect. But really... Are you now a Bible expert? Here you said things, call them claims, beliefs or whatever it is you're doing, but show the Bible verses that back up what you're saying.

Click to expand...

I said: “Read your Bible, you won't find any verses that say that.” There is nothing disrespectful about what I said, NOTHING.

Did I ever say I was a Bible expert? You are the one who needs to show the Bible verses that back up what you're saying, as noted above, if you are the one who believes that there will be no more wars or rumors of wars and no more tribulations AFTER the Messiah comes.

CG Didymus said:

What will the Messiah do? The tribulations continue after the Messiah comes? And those things, specifically establish peace, won't be established in his lifetime?

Click to expand...

I explained what the Messiah will do above. There is no reason to believe that tribulations will not continue after the Messiah comes or that peace will be established during the lifetime of the Messiah, but if you can present the verses that you believe indicate that I will look at them.

By the way, I stumbled upon this radio talk I think you will find interesting since it addresses many of the things you are always asking about regarding the literal vs. metaphorical interpretation of the Bible.

Christians Divided Over Science Of Human Origins

CG Didymus said:

Each religion has good reasons to doubt the new religion. And the new religion always has to change the "frame of reference."

Click to expand...

They do not have 'good reasons' but they have a reason. The reason is they doubt the new religion is so they can hang onto their religion for dear life because they cannot face the fact that God has revealed a new religion that superseded their religion.

Trailblazer said:

They do not have 'good reasons' but they have a reason. The reason is they doubt the new religion is so they can hang onto their religion for dear life because they cannot face the fact that God has revealed a new religion that superseded their religion..

Click to expand...

Something like that, yes.
Mankind is tribal, and they get advantages in life from "staying as they are".

This is part of the test. We can't hide anything from God.
..even if we can hide it from ourselves ! [ subconscious mind vs conscious mind ]

muhammad_isa said:

True. My personal understanding is that satan will not have much power, as we will all be "on the same page", and it will be global.

Example: It will be difficult to find somebody to give charity to, as all will be prosperous due to wealth being equitable, as usury will no longer be globally extant.

Click to expand...

To make it clear, Baha'is don't believe in a literal Satan.

CG Didymus said:

To make it clear, Baha'is don't believe in a literal Satan..

Click to expand...

Many believers from other religious persuasions don't either..
..in the sense that it is not a literal 'satan' that causes us to behave in an evil manner.
Evil comes from different sources. It can come from ourselves and others.
'satan' [or shaytan] is often used as he was the originator of rebellion against G-d. We can also speak of shayatin, which is the plural form. It means literally devils, of among mankind and jinn [spirits].
The main cause of evil is from 'the nafs', which is our desires, which are often in conflict with righteousness. Closely associated with this is envy, which is clearly destructive to ourselves and others.

Hope that helps

muhammad_isa said:

As a Muslim, I would say that the Bible "is right" as well.
However, that doesn't mean that I think that God ignores people who aren't Christians or Jews.
Islam is unique, and confirms the basic truth of the Bible.

Click to expand...

I have always thought of Islam as affirming basic truths of the Bible but also as denying other important truths.

muhammad_isa said:

Whether Jesus is God or not, has nothing to do with sincerity.

Click to expand...

Sounds right to me.

Trailblazer said:

Wars and rumors of wars will continue and tribulations will get worse after the Messiah comes. Things start to get fixed when the Messiah comes but everything does not suddenly and magically get fixed when the Messiah comes since humans are the ones who have to fix things and that takes a long time. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Messiah will fix these things Himself or that all the things will be fixed during the lifetime of the Messiah, as Christians and Jews believe. Read your Bible, you won't find any verses that say that. They only believe that because they have misinterpreted the Bible to suit their fancy.

Click to expand...

Jesus did not fix everything during His life on earth. He came and did all the work that His Father had given Him to do and left as a resurrected and immortal man, who is still alive and doing Messianic things now and coming back to complete the work. The word complete is important. The words immortal man are important.
He does not get born again to return, He just comes down again as the same man the same way His disciples saw Him go. (Acts 1) But this time He comes not as the suffering servant but as the King who has conquered death and comes to complete the work of crushing the dead of the serpent, satan (Gen 3:15) and to judge the earth and rule and bring peace as paradise to earth etc etc.
All these things are interpretations of straight forward scriptures in the Bible which have to be denied or twisted to mean something else by Baha'i.

Brian2 said:

Jesus did not fix everything during His life on earth. He came and did all the work that His Father had given Him to do and left as a resurrected and immortal man, who is still alive and doing Messianic things now and coming back to complete the work. The word complete is important. The words immortal man are important.
He does not get born again to return, He just comes down again as the same man the same way His disciples saw Him go. (Acts 1) But this time He comes not as the suffering servant but as the King who has conquered death and comes to complete the work of crushing the dead of the serpent, satan (Gen 3:15) and to judge the earth and rule and bring peace as paradise to earth etc etc.
All these things are interpretations of straight forward scriptures in the Bible which have to be denied or twisted to mean something else by Baha'i.

Click to expand...

Firstly Jesus was a King and completed what He was sent to do.

John 19:28-30 It Is Finished
"28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit."

The flesh was dead, the Spirit risen.

So I see the expectation offered in your reply as an expectation that many still offer, it can be seen as a desire, a desire of men wanting God's Will to fulfill their own expectations and not allowing for it to unfold as God so chooses.

It is tantamount to the rejection of all God's Messengers, as it is the same expectation that is resurrected in every 'Day' that God has sent a Messenger.

The Baha'i are not exempt from this, many have and still do build expectations based in their own desires.

Faith is about submission to God's Will and not our own, a lifetime battle with our own self.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul said:

Firstly Jesus was a King and completed what He was sent to do.

John 19:28-30 It Is Finished
"28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit."

The flesh was dead, the Spirit risen.

Click to expand...

Everybody dies like that. The spirit departs the body. Jesus however is the first to be raised bodily from the dead.
Jesus did finish the work that God had sent Him to do at that time.
Other work still was to be done however.
When Jesus rose from the dead He came to His disciples and told them about that work and that He would always be with them.

TransmutingSoul said:

So I see the expectation offered in your reply as an expectation that many still offer, it can be seen as a desire, a desire of men wanting God's Will to fulfill their own expectations and not allowing for it to unfold as God so chooses.

It is tantamount to the rejection of all God's Messengers, as it is the same expectation that is resurrected in every 'Day' that God has sent a Messenger.

The Baha'i are not exempt from this, many have and still do build expectations based in their own desires.

Faith is about submission to God's Will and not our own, a lifetime battle with our own self.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

My expectations are based on what we are told in the Bible about what would happen. They are based on the belief that God did not lie to us.
Did Jesus rise bodily? Yes
Is He immortal? Yes
Will He personally return to earth? Yes
etc etc etc etc
If you want to submit to God then submit that what He said in the Bible and don't let someone come and alter the meaning and throw doubt on what God has said.

Brian2 said:

Everybody dies like that. The spirit departs the body. Jesus however is the first to be raised bodily from the dead.
Jesus did finish the work that God had sent Him to do at that time.
Other work still was to be done however.
When Jesus rose from the dead He came to His disciples and told them about that work and that He would always be with them.



My expectations are based on what we are told in the Bible about what would happen. They are based on the belief that God did not lie to us.
Did Jesus rise bodily? Yes
Is He immortal? Yes
Will He personally return to earth? Yes
etc etc etc etc
If you want to submit to God then submit that what He said in the Bible and don't let someone come and alter the meaning and throw doubt on what God has said.

Click to expand...

With that, 'It is Finished".

Regards Tony

Brian2 said:

Jesus did finish the work that God had sent Him to do at that time.
Other work still was to be done however.

Click to expand...

Problem is, Jesus never said that He had more work to do.

Brian2 said:

My expectations are based on what we are told in the Bible about what would happen. They are based on the belief that God did not lie to us.

Click to expand...

Then why do you believe that Jesus is coming back to earth when the Bible clearly says His work was finished here and He is no longer in the world?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

TransmutingSoul said:

With that, 'It is Finished".

Click to expand...

Yes, Jesus' work was finished and that is why He said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Apparently some Christians don't want to face the fact that Jesus is never coming back to earth to do more work.
Moreover, there is not one single verse where Jesus said He was coming back to earth, not one.
That is because Jesus was never planning to come back to this world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Trailblazer said:

Problem is, Jesus never said that He had more work to do.

Click to expand...

The Bible tells us all the things that the Messiah will do. Nothing there about multiple Messiahs.
The Bible has Jesus, the same Jesus, returning to finish the work and the Bible has Jesus, the same Jesus building His Church in the meantime.

Trailblazer said:

Then why do you believe that Jesus is coming back to earth when the Bible clearly says His work was finished here and He is no longer in the world?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Click to expand...

Why do you use verses that clearly must mean that Jesus was just saying that He was finishing up His work on earth and would be going back to the Father.
They must mean that because Jesus plainly said that He was coming back and the rest of the New Testament tells us the same thing.
You make contradictions where there are none, and then go on to make more contradictions about who is going to be the returning Messiah where the returning Messiah is clearly the same Messiah who finished His work on earth and left.

Trailblazer said:

Yes, Jesus' work was finished and that is why He said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Apparently some Christians don't want to face the fact that Jesus is never coming back to earth to do more work.
Moreover, there is not one single verse where Jesus said He was coming back to earth, not one.
That is because Jesus was never planning to come back to this world.

Click to expand...

John 14: 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
That's pretty clear and you twist it's meaning around into something I cannot even remember because it is so twisted.
Matt 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.…
John 5:22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

The Son is going to do all the judging and so the Son of Man in Matt 25:31 is the Son of God, Jesus, whohas returned in glory with the angels and is doing the judging.

You answered me once about this by saying that only God can judge, but then you want Baha'u'llah to be the Son of Man who returns to judge.

Trailblazer said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Click to expand...

Trailblazer said:

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Click to expand...

Why does the world see Him no more, why is He no more in the world? Because He was ascending to the heaven to the Father.
Why is every eye going to see Him (Rev 1:7)? Because He is going to return to earth.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Brian2 said:

..If you want to submit to God then submit that what He said in the Bible and don't let someone come and alter the meaning and throw doubt on what God has said.

Click to expand...

G-d did not say in the Bible that "Jesus died and rose again".
The authors in the NT said that, as it was believed to be the case.

..by saying that he didn't die while on the cross, and so didn't have to "rise again", doesn't negate the whole of Jesus' teachings.
Christianity became a religion that revolved around him "dying on a cross". Jesus didn't start a new religion based on that core belief. He attended the temple in Jerusalem, and was the promised messiah.

Brian2 said:

Why does the world see Him no more, why is He no more in the world? Because He was ascending to the heaven to the Father.
Why is every eye going to see Him (Rev 1:7)? Because He is going to return to earth.

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree with you.

muhammad_isa said:

G-d did not say in the Bible that "Jesus died and rose again".
The authors in the NT said that, as it was believed to be the case.

..by saying that he didn't die while on the cross, and so didn't have to "rise again", doesn't negate the whole of Jesus' teachings.
Christianity became a religion that revolved around him "dying on a cross". Jesus didn't start a new religion based on that core belief. He attended the temple in Jerusalem, and was the promised messiah.

Click to expand...

Yes the followers of Jesus said what happened.
The OT gives prophecy of what would happen, eg Isa 53, Psalm 22.
(the servant of Isa 53 died and was buried and was a sin offering, as per temple sin offerings, and rose to see children, those who believe in Him and receive His life)
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

The one who called God His Father and who is made firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth was rejected by the Jews and killed. (So I believe Ps 89:24-29, 38-45)
God prophesied the death and resurrection of the Messiah and what happened as recorded in the New Testament is witness to that.
John the Baptists said of Jesus that He is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. (lamb as in a lamb offered for sin at the Temple)
Jesus prophesied His own death and resurrection and even told us why.
Matt26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

The whole bible witnesses to the truth of the death and resurrection of Jesus and you say that God did not say in the Bible that Jesus died and rose again.
How many people said that Jesus did not die on the cross and rise again? Did God say that? If you believe the words of one man, yes, God said that.

Christianity became a religion that revolved around the belief in the death and resurrection because that is what happened and is central to the gospel message of forgiveness through faith in Jesus.
Jesus even came to the disciples after the resurrection.

Brian2 said:

Yes the followers of Jesus said what happened..

Click to expand...

..that depends on what you mean by "followers".
I don't think that all early Christians believed in the significance of "his apparent rising from the dead".

Brian2 said:

The whole bible witnesses to the truth of the death and resurrection of Jesus and you say that God did not say in the Bible that Jesus died and rose again

Click to expand...

No it doesn't. The OT does not discuss "a dying and rising messiah".

Brian2 said:

Christianity became a religion that revolved around the belief in the death and resurrection because that is what happened and is central to the gospel message of forgiveness through faith in Jesus.
Jesus even came to the disciples after the resurrection.

Click to expand...

If Jesus didn't actually die on the cross, it is not difficult to understand him appearing to the disciples before his ascension.
The reason why he didn't complete his mission as messiah, is because G-d deemed it wise [and part of the Divine plan], to remove him from the impossible situation that he was in.
He escaped from death, but the Sanhedrin would have not left it at that.