The God of Jesus

DNB · Dec 1, 2021

Clara Tea said:
When Jesus went to mount Olive, Popeye slugged him.

Funny, but in bad taste. ...not religious, are you?

DNB · Dec 1, 2021

Clara Tea said:
God doesn't answer prayers, doesn't rescue cancer victims from pain, debilitation, and death, and has cruelly flooded the world, killing innocents.

Jesus has cured the sick, fed the hungry, and railed against churches that collected bobbles while ignoring the suffering.

God even allowed Jesus to be horribly tortured to death while Jesus asked him "why hath thou forsaken me?"

Parents always ask....where did I go wrong? In this case, Jesus was a good kid, but his father has a far worse reputation.

Look at all of the posts that say that God is loving. There must be a lot of love inside God because none ever came out.

God has offered men a lot more than this temporal and corrupt world can ever offer. Don't get hung-up on that which is fleeting and ignoble, even as far as pain and suffering is concerned. No one gets out of this world unscathed, it's not meant to be the final destination, nor a paradise of any sorts. It's a trial ground where our free-will determines where our heart and loyalties lie.

Trailblazer · Dec 1, 2021

Hidingfromyou said:
Since the NT differs from the OT, does this mean that the deity it portrays changed from bad to good? I mean, the OT has the deity ordering its chosen people to commit genocide, but in the NT, the deity is much less nasty (though still quite sexist and accepting slavery), so did the deity grow in terms of morality?

Further, can we expect a new NT where the deity accepts contemporary morality, like accepting that multiple genders exist and that the death penalty is questionable?

I believe that God relates to humans differently in every age because humans are progress spiritually throughout the ages, and that is why the God of the Old Testament is portrayed very different from the God of the New Testament. By the time the New Testament was revealed, humanity had progressed to a stage where they were no longer in need if the wrathful punishing God; they were ready for a loving God. It is all one God, just relating differently as humans require.

A loose analogy would be that parents relate differently to their very young children than they relate to them when they become teenagers and adults. Parents always love their children, but younger children require more discipline than the older children, and by the time their children are mature adults they can make their own decisions and need no supervision.

I do not believe there will ever be another New Testament because the Gospel message was about Jesus and was revealed for a certain age in history. I believe that religion has to be restored from age to age. Isaac Newton had similar beliefs to mine about God reforming religion from age to age and Newton argued that it was the same religion that was restored from time to time by God because men deviated from the true religion.

"Newton found multiple examples throughout history of reformations by God:

The worship which is due to this God we are to give to no other nor to ascribe anything absurd or contradictious to his nature or actions lest we be found to blaspheme him or to deny him or to make a step towards atheism or irreligion. . . . For as often as mankind has swerved from them, God has made a reformation. When the sons of Adam erred and the thoughts of their heart became evil continually, God selected Noah to people a new world. And when the posterity of Noah transgressed and began to invoke dead men, God selected Abraham and his posterity. And when they transgressed in Egypt God reformed them by Moses. And when they relapsed to idolatry and immorality, God sent Prophets to reform them and punished them by the Babylonian captivity. And when they that returned from captivity, mixed human inventions with the law of Moses under the name of traditions, and laid the stress of religion not upon the acts of the mind, but upon outward acts and ceremonies, God sent Christ to reform them. And when the nation received him not, God called the Gentiles. And now the Gentiles have corrupted themselves, we may expect that God in due time will make a new reformation. And in all the reformations of religion hitherto made, the religion in respect of God and our neighbor is one and the same religion . . . so that this is the oldest religion in the world.[47]

Newton argued that it was the same religion that was restored from time to time by God because men deviated from this true religion. He concluded: “So then the mystery of this restitution of all things is to be found in all the Prophets: which makes me wonder with great admiration that so few Christians of our age can find it there.” [48]

A Brief Survey of Sir Isaac Newton's Views on Religion | Religious Studies Center

Hidingfromyou · Dec 1, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I believe that God relates to humans differently in every age because humans are progress spiritually throughout the ages, and that is why the God of the Old Testament is portrayed very different from the God of the New Testament. By the time the New Testament was revealed, humanity had progressed to a stage where they were no longer in need if the wrathful punishing God; they were ready for a loving God. It is all one God, just relating differently as humans require.

A loose analogy would be that parents relate differently to their very young children than they relate to them when they become teenagers and adults. Parents always love their children, but younger children require more discipline than the older children, and by the time their children are mature adults they can make their own decisions and need no supervision.

I do not believe there will ever be another New Testament because the Gospel message was revealed for a different age in history, an age we are no longer living in. That is why the NT does not address the problems that humanity has in this new age.

I believe that religion has been restored twice since the NT was recorded. Isaac Newton had similar beliefs to mine about God reforming religion from age to age and Newton argued that it was the same religion that was restored from time to time by God because men deviated from the true religion.

"Newton found multiple examples throughout history of reformations by God:

The worship which is due to this God we are to give to no other nor to ascribe anything absurd or contradictious to his nature or actions lest we be found to blaspheme him or to deny him or to make a step towards atheism or irreligion. . . . For as often as mankind has swerved from them, God has made a reformation. When the sons of Adam erred and the thoughts of their heart became evil continually, God selected Noah to people a new world. And when the posterity of Noah transgressed and began to invoke dead men, God selected Abraham and his posterity. And when they transgressed in Egypt God reformed them by Moses. And when they relapsed to idolatry and immorality, God sent Prophets to reform them and punished them by the Babylonian captivity. And when they that returned from captivity, mixed human inventions with the law of Moses under the name of traditions, and laid the stress of religion not upon the acts of the mind, but upon outward acts and ceremonies, God sent Christ to reform them. And when the nation received him not, God called the Gentiles. And now the Gentiles have corrupted themselves, we may expect that God in due time will make a new reformation. And in all the reformations of religion hitherto made, the religion in respect of God and our neighbor is one and the same religion . . . so that this is the oldest religion in the world.[47]

Newton argued that it was the same religion that was restored from time to time by God because men deviated from this true religion. He concluded: “So then the mystery of this restitution of all things is to be found in all the Prophets: which makes me wonder with great admiration that so few Christians of our age can find it there.” [48]

A Brief Survey of Sir Isaac Newton's Views on Religion | Religious Studies Center

That was a very considerate answer, thank you.

If Newton is correct, and humans have deviated from religion, and no new new testament is coming, does that mean we have to adopt slavery again and forbid women from speaking in church? Such things were present in the NT, but are no longer acceptable now - to put in Newton's terms, we've moved away from them.

Trailblazer · Dec 1, 2021

Hidingfromyou said:
That was a very considerate answer, thank you.

If Newton is correct, and humans have deviated from religion, and no new new testament is coming, does that mean we have to adopt slavery again and forbid women from speaking in church? Such things were present in the NT, but are no longer acceptable now - to put in Newton's terms, we've moved away from them.

I believe that the eternal religion of God has already been renewed by Baha'u'llah, a Messenger of God who appeared in the 19th century. He wrote over 100 volumes, addressing diverse subjects, including what humanity needs to survive and thrive in this age.

Below is a quote about what happens to religion over the course of time, and why it needs to be renewed in every age: I can explain more later if you are interested. This quote is kind of long so please bear with me. I immediately thought of it because it is related to this subject.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.

‘Abdu’l-Baha writes: ‘God leaves not His children comfortless, but, when the darkness of winter overshadows them, then again He sends His Messengers, the Prophets, with a renewal of the 25 blessed spring. The Sun of Truth appears again on the horizon of the world shining into the eyes of those who sleep, awaking them to behold the glory of a new dawn. Then again will the tree of humanity blossom and bring forth the fruit of righteousness for the healing of the nations.’ Paris Talks, p. 32.’

Some conclusions can be drawn from this fundamental belief. First, all religions are divine in essence and consequently there are no religions which contradict or exclude each other, but only one indivisible divine religion which is renewed periodically and according to the requirements of the age, in cycles of about a thousand years: ‘Our command was but one word.’ Qur’an 54:51. It is therefore hardly surprising if many of Baha’u’llah’s teachings are to be found in former religions either expressly or in an embryonic form. As ‘Abdu’l-Baha says, the Baha’i Faith is ‘not a new path to immortality.’ quoted from: Principles of the Baha’i Faith. On account of this transcendent oneness of all religions, Baha’u’llah exhorted His people to associate with followers of all religions in a spirit of loving-kindness and to make of religion a cause of harmony and peace, not of discord and strife, of hate and division.

The second conclusion is that we cannot perceive what the essence of religion is and what it has the power to achieve if we examine the traditional great religions in their present form. They have achieved much but have reached the end of their road; they were the foundation of great cultures and for thousands of years they were the guiding-star of millions of people in their everyday life and activities. But during the course of history they have also accumulated large amounts of historical ballast. They have moved a long way from their origin and are burdened with their followers’ misdeeds and cravings for power. They are no pleasant sight today, least of all to young people, who no longer see in these religions the ‘salt of the earth’ as Jesus called his disciples, Matthew 5:13 but rather the ‘opium of the people’ (Karl Marx). And one is easily inclined to pass judgment on religion as a whole, and to see in it an anachronism of past times, long since overcome, like the belief in demons in former times. But a withered plant does not give us the faintest idea of its blossoming time. In reality, religions are the 26 ‘light of the world’ and, according to Baha’u’llah’s teachings, the foundation of human culture. It is important to understand that they are as necessary for mankind as sunlight for the plant. Without divine revelation, there would be neither progress nor culture: ‘Were this revelation to be withdrawn, all would perish.’ Taken from (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, XCIII).

(Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, pp. 24-26)

Hidingfromyou · Dec 1, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I believe that the eternal religion of God has already been renewed by Baha'u'llah, a Messenger of God who appeared in the 19th century. He wrote over 100 volumes, addressing diverse subjects, including what humanity needs to survive and thrive in this age.

Below is a quote about what happens to religion over the course of time, and why it needs to be renewed in every age: I can explain more later if you are interested. This quote is kind of long so please bear with me. I immediately thought of it because it is related to this subject.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.

‘Abdu’l-Baha writes: ‘God leaves not His children comfortless, but, when the darkness of winter overshadows them, then again He sends His Messengers, the Prophets, with a renewal of the 25 blessed spring. The Sun of Truth appears again on the horizon of the world shining into the eyes of those who sleep, awaking them to behold the glory of a new dawn. Then again will the tree of humanity blossom and bring forth the fruit of righteousness for the healing of the nations.’ Paris Talks, p. 32.’

Some conclusions can be drawn from this fundamental belief. First, all religions are divine in essence and consequently there are no religions which contradict or exclude each other, but only one indivisible divine religion which is renewed periodically and according to the requirements of the age, in cycles of about a thousand years: ‘Our command was but one word.’ Qur’an 54:51. It is therefore hardly surprising if many of Baha’u’llah’s teachings are to be found in former religions either expressly or in an embryonic form. As ‘Abdu’l-Baha says, the Baha’i Faith is ‘not a new path to immortality.’ quoted from: Principles of the Baha’i Faith. On account of this transcendent oneness of all religions, Baha’u’llah exhorted His people to associate with followers of all religions in a spirit of loving-kindness and to make of religion a cause of harmony and peace, not of discord and strife, of hate and division.

The second conclusion is that we cannot perceive what the essence of religion is and what it has the power to achieve if we examine the traditional great religions in their present form. They have achieved much but have reached the end of their road; they were the foundation of great cultures and for thousands of years they were the guiding-star of millions of people in their everyday life and activities. But during the course of history they have also accumulated large amounts of historical ballast. They have moved a long way from their origin and are burdened with their followers’ misdeeds and cravings for power. They are no pleasant sight today, least of all to young people, who no longer see in these religions the ‘salt of the earth’ as Jesus called his disciples, Matthew 5:13 but rather the ‘opium of the people’ (Karl Marx). And one is easily inclined to pass judgment on religion as a whole, and to see in it an anachronism of past times, long since overcome, like the belief in demons in former times. But a withered plant does not give us the faintest idea of its blossoming time. In reality, religions are the 26 ‘light of the world’ and, according to Baha’u’llah’s teachings, the foundation of human culture. It is important to understand that they are as necessary for mankind as sunlight for the plant. Without divine revelation, there would be neither progress nor culture: ‘Were this revelation to be withdrawn, all would perish.’ Taken from (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, XCIII).

(Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, pp. 24-26)

That's interesting. I've long thought that if a deity/deities exist, then all religions must access some limited part of the divinity. The problem with that are religions like Aztec and Mayan, that contained lots of human sacrifice - you'd have to concede that this, too, was part of the divinity.

However, I see religions as cultural systems. As such, they simply change over time in response to other changing conditions, like economics, politics, etc.

Trailblazer · Dec 1, 2021

Hidingfromyou said:
That's interesting. I've long thought that if a deity/deities exist, then all religions must access some limited part of the divinity. The problem with that are religions like Aztec and Mayan, that contained lots of human sacrifice - you'd have to concede that this, too, was part of the divinity.

However, I see religions as cultural systems. As such, they simply change over time in response to other changing conditions, like economics, politics, etc.

I believe that all the true religions were revealed by the one true God through Messengers of God and all the different religions were suited to the changing conditions in the world. There are other religions that are man-made and reflect certain cultures and peoples. I would say that the Aztec and Mayan were two of those. The following passage describes the nature of religion according to my beliefs:

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Hidingfromyou · Dec 1, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I believe that all the true religions were revealed by the one true God through Messengers of God and all the different religions were suited to the changing conditions in the world. There are other religions that are man-made and reflect certain cultures and peoples. I would say that the Aztec and Mayan were two of those. The following passage describes the nature of religion according to my beliefs:

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

I doubt the Aztecs and Mayans would agree with you.

RestlessSoul · Dec 2, 2021

Nakosis said:
Mostly?
So,
Ezekiel 28:22-23
And say, Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Sidon, and I will manifest my glory in your midst. And they shall know that I am the Lord when I execute judgments in her and manifest my holiness in her; for I will send pestilence into her, and blood into her streets; and the slain shall fall in her midst, by the sword that is against her on every side. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

Where does Jesus talk about a God who sends pestilence and blood into the streets?

Jules from Pulp Fiction?

Trailblazer · Dec 2, 2021

Hidingfromyou said:
I doubt the Aztecs and Mayans would agree with you.

I doubt it too as most people do not share my beliefs.

Truthseeker · Dec 2, 2021

Hidingfromyou said:
The problem with that are religions like Aztec and Mayan, that contained lots of human sacrifice - you'd have to concede that this, too, was part of the divinity.

The human sacrifice wasn't a part of divinity from my point of view. However, I believe there was a Messenger of God in the past of that part of the world, and it was corrupted. It is revealed in the Baha'i religion and also Islamic religion that God sent a Messenger to every nation, whatever that means.

It's just that all the religions that lose their original luster over time. There is possibly a Messenger there was called Quetzalcotl, but this is shrouded in myth.

Quetzalcoatl, the “Plumed Serpent”

Apparently this personage may be a real person that tried to end human sacrifice. Tragically, the Aztec mistook Cortez as the return of Quetzalcoatl. This helped lead to their doom.

Hidingfromyou · Dec 2, 2021

Truthseeker9 said:
The human sacrifice wasn't a part of divinity from my point of view. However, I believe there was a Messenger of God in the past of that part of the world, and it was corrupted. It is revealed in the Baha'i religion and also Islamic religion that God sent a Messenger to every nation, whatever that means.

It's just that all the religions that lose their original luster over time. There is possibly a Messenger there was called Quetzalcotl, but this is shrouded in myth.

Quetzalcoatl, the “Plumed Serpent”

Apparently this personage may be a real person that tried to end human sacrifice. Tragically, the Aztec mistook Cortez as the return of Quetzalcoatl. This helped lead to their doom.

In my opinion, you are making up stories to fit other religions within your belief system.

Hidingfromyou · Dec 2, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I doubt it too as most people do not share my beliefs.

I guess it doesn't really matter since they aren't around to argue with you.

firedragon · Dec 2, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I believe that God relates to humans differently in every age because humans are progress spiritually throughout the ages, and that is why the God of the Old Testament is portrayed very different from the God of the New Testament. By the time the New Testament was revealed, humanity had progressed to a stage where they were no longer in need if the wrathful punishing God; they were ready for a loving God. It is all one God, just relating differently as humans require.

A loose analogy would be that parents relate differently to their very young children than they relate to them when they become teenagers and adults. Parents always love their children, but younger children require more discipline than the older children, and by the time their children are mature adults they can make their own decisions and need no supervision.

I do not believe there will ever be another New Testament because the Gospel message was about Jesus and was revealed for a certain age in history. I believe that religion has to be restored from age to age. Isaac Newton had similar beliefs to mine about God reforming religion from age to age and Newton argued that it was the same religion that was restored from time to time by God because men deviated from the true religion.

"Newton found multiple examples throughout history of reformations by God:

The worship which is due to this God we are to give to no other nor to ascribe anything absurd or contradictious to his nature or actions lest we be found to blaspheme him or to deny him or to make a step towards atheism or irreligion. . . . For as often as mankind has swerved from them, God has made a reformation. When the sons of Adam erred and the thoughts of their heart became evil continually, God selected Noah to people a new world. And when the posterity of Noah transgressed and began to invoke dead men, God selected Abraham and his posterity. And when they transgressed in Egypt God reformed them by Moses. And when they relapsed to idolatry and immorality, God sent Prophets to reform them and punished them by the Babylonian captivity. And when they that returned from captivity, mixed human inventions with the law of Moses under the name of traditions, and laid the stress of religion not upon the acts of the mind, but upon outward acts and ceremonies, God sent Christ to reform them. And when the nation received him not, God called the Gentiles. And now the Gentiles have corrupted themselves, we may expect that God in due time will make a new reformation. And in all the reformations of religion hitherto made, the religion in respect of God and our neighbor is one and the same religion . . . so that this is the oldest religion in the world.[47]

Newton argued that it was the same religion that was restored from time to time by God because men deviated from this true religion. He concluded: “So then the mystery of this restitution of all things is to be found in all the Prophets: which makes me wonder with great admiration that so few Christians of our age can find it there.” [48]

A Brief Survey of Sir Isaac Newton's Views on Religion | Religious Studies Center

Newtons scholarship was poor in comparison to todays scholarship, although he was a very good scholar as well.

Not only Newton, almost all Christians say that. Orthodox christology is exactly that. But newton was revolutionary at the time or even today because he would have been called a heretic if Christians really knew his ideas.

The problem with your whole post is that it is predominantly a faith statement. Its only an attempt at bringing in Bahai theology into this thread.

Kenny · Dec 2, 2021

Nakosis said:
If one only used the words of Jesus, his statements about God he gave in the gospels, what image of God would we have.

A healing God
A delivering God
A loving God
A God that gives mercy over judgment
A God that knows the thought of men
A God that is pursuing humanity.
A God that wants to answer prayers.
A God that is interested in the poor
A God that wants the rich not to forget the poor
A God of covenant
A God of life and light
A just God.

Colt · Dec 2, 2021

Nakosis said:
If one only used the words of Jesus, his statements about God he gave in the gospels, what image of God would we have.

God as a Loving Father, the only thing Jesus really ever taught. Thats a contrast to the concepts of God in areas of the Old Testament.

Trailblazer · Dec 2, 2021

Hidingfromyou said:
I guess it doesn't really matter since they aren't around to argue with you.

They are all around me, since hardly anyone shares my belief system, but I don't like to argue with anyone, especially over religion.
All people are free to have their religion and I can have mine. That is one reason why we all have free will.

lukethethird · Dec 2, 2021

DNB said:
Funny, but in bad taste. ...not religious, are you?

Why was that in bad taste?

1213 · Dec 2, 2021

Nakosis said:
So do you keep all of God's commandments?

At least I try. (But not because I would try to earn something with it).

Nakosis · Dec 2, 2021

1213 said:
At least I try. (But not because I would try to earn something with it).

And some may make idols. Not really the point though.
I was wondering what understanding of God might be gain through Jesus' words.

The God of Jesus

Christian

Christian

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Non-debating member when I can help myself

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Face to face with my Father

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

unknown member

Well-Known Member

Non-Binary Physicalist