Can it not exist?

F1fan · Nov 30, 2021

We Never Know said:
In my opinion anyone demanding or asking or wanting evidence for a god is illogical.

Notice the skeptic never brings it up. They are just taking the responsible next step in a debate and asking why a claimant is making a fantastic claim.

Why? Its like this...
1. Does a god exist? We don't know.

Tell that to the claimant. The claimant might also claim to have evidence. They might even claim to know a God exists.

2. What is a god? If we don't know what a god is, how can we find it or evidence of it.

Ask the claimant who says their God exists. Asking might expose they really don't know.

3. If a god is supernatural or spiritual then its out of the realm of science.. we are back to how can your find it or evidence of it.

That isn't the dilemma. the dilemma is that the claimants are ordinary mortals who don't claim to have any special abilities, so how can they possible know that some supernatural force exists in any way? That's why we ask them questions. As noted, they don't come to conclusions their God exists via evidence or facts, but from adopting their society's religious lore. Many are taught to make fantastic claims, of which they are often challenged, and then fail to provide answers.

4. What evidence would be expected for a god if its exists? If its unknown... we are back to, how can you find it or evidence of it.

Again that falls on the claimants that Gods exist.

5. If the evidence for a god is out of the science realm, unknown, etc..what evidence should we be looking for?

I suggest why theists are making claims at all since they have no evidentiary basis for them.

That's why I think is illogical to ask for evidence for a god.

Do you think it's logical for a theist to claim their God exists?

We Never Know · Nov 30, 2021

F1fan said:
Notice the skeptic never brings it up. They are just taking the responsible next step in a debate and asking why a claimant is making a fantastic claim.

Tell that to the claimant. The claimant might also claim to have evidence. They might even claim to know a God exists.

Ask the claimant who says their God exists. Asking might expose they really don't know.

That isn't the dilemma. the dilemma is that the claimants are ordinary mortals who don't claim to have any special abilities, so how can they possible know that some supernatural force exists in any way? That's why we ask them questions. As noted, they don't come to conclusions their God exists via evidence or facts, but from adopting their society's religious lore. Many are taught to make fantastic claims, of which they are often challenged, and then fail to provide answers.

Again that falls on the claimants that Gods exist.

I suggest why theists are making claims at all since they have no evidentiary basis for them.

Do you think it's logical for a theist to claim their God exists?

Every thing you mentioned about ask the claimants can be answered with "their faith and belief". They have faith and belief, which is real, and good enough for them.

Why should they have to prove their faith and belief's to you?

F1fan · Nov 30, 2021

We Never Know said:
Every thing you mentioned about ask the claimants can be answered with "their faith and belief". They have faith and belief, which is real, and good enough for them.

And they need to be informed it isn't adequate for a claim and debate, or legislation. So it's fine if they keep it to themselves. But as soon as they open the door.......

We Never Know · Nov 30, 2021

F1fan said:
And they need to be informed it isn't adequate for a claim and debate, or legislation. So it's fine if they keep it to themselves. But as soon as they open the door.......

I see. So even though they don't have to prove their faith and believe to you, you think they should be silent on it?
Shouldn't that go both ways? If their faith and belief can't be shown wrong, shouldn't people quit dogging them about it?

I understand they can't produce evidence for a god and its unknown what a god is or what evidence for a god would be.

Therefore I can't show their faith or belief is illogical being I don't know if a god does or doesn't exist and have no idea what evidence I would look for if one did exist.

We Never Know · Nov 30, 2021

F1fan said:
And they need to be informed it isn't adequate for a claim and debate, or legislation. So it's fine if they keep it to themselves. But as soon as they open the door.......

How is it logical for anyone to claim or debate about something that may or may not exist? Aren't both simply claiming and debating about what isn't known?

F1fan · Nov 30, 2021

We Never Know said:
How is it logical for anyone to claim or debate about something that may or may not exist? Aren't both simply claiming and debating about what isn't known?

You are surely aware that not all people who engage in debate use logic. Those who do will respond to anyone if a claim is made and it is debatable.

Who knows, maybe some theist is onto something. Is it bad to give them the opportunity to reveal it?

We Never Know · Nov 30, 2021

F1fan said:
You are surely aware that not all people who engage in debate use logic. Those who do will respond to anyone if a claim is made and it is debatable.

Who knows, maybe some theist is onto something. Is it bad to give them the opportunity to reveal it?

I ask again.... How is it logical for anyone to claim or debate about something unknown, that may or may not exist?

F1fan · Nov 30, 2021

We Never Know said:
I ask again.... How is it logical for anyone to claim or debate about something unknown, that may or may not exist?

Like micro organisms? Ask Pasteur.

We ask questions. Some believe without thinking first. We have questions for them, too.

We Never Know · Nov 30, 2021

F1fan said:
Like micro organisms? Ask Pasteur.

We ask questions. Some believe without thinking first. We have questions for them, too.

Here's my point...

If a unicorn existed, we would know/have an idea what to look for..

If the flying spaghetti monster existed we would know/have an idea what to look for..

If a god existed, we wouldn't know/have an idea what to look for..

DNB · Nov 30, 2021

F1fan said:
Are you admitting you don't understand the phrase "lack of evidence"? Are you seriously confused about what these words mean, and what the phrase means?

Whatever label might be slapped on the OP what I am part of is a group of people who don't accept popular beliefs from my society without due consideration and scrutiny.

You seem part of the group that will adopt a popular social belief without scrutiny. This can be dangerous.

Talk is cheap. The OP is about whether or not you have the ability to both perceive, and scrutinize correctly. In other words, claiming a lack of evidence is entirely subjective.

F1fan · Nov 30, 2021

We Never Know said:
Here's my point...

If a unicorn existed, we would know/have an idea what to look for..

And that is why we ask theists questions about their many, diverse gods when they claim they exist. It's not our problem they haven't thought about that ahead of time.

F1fan · Nov 30, 2021

DNB said:
Talk is cheap. The OP is about whether or not you have the ability to both perceive, and scrutinize correctly. In other words, claiming a lack of evidence is entirely subjective.

So then, wouldn't claiming a God exists also be subjective, thus not truth?

If a believer claims their God exists they should be able to explain how they came to that conclusion, yes?

We Never Know · Nov 30, 2021

F1fan said:
And that is why we ask theists questions about their many, diverse gods when they claim they exist. It's not our problem they haven't thought about that ahead of time.

I already answered that. Its their faith and belief.

So if a god existed and this is everything we know about a god...

How logical is it to ask for evidence of a god beyond faith and belief?.

F1fan · Nov 30, 2021

We Never Know said:
I already answered that. Its their faith and belief.

So if a god existed and this is everything we know about a god...
View attachment 57990

How logical is it to ask for evidence of a god beyond faith and belief?.

Well according to many of our theists friends they often claim their Gods have all sorts of knowable attributes. So your depiction is incorrect in their views. So we skeptics then have more questions, as we should.

Spirit of Light · Dec 1, 2021

We Never Know said:
I already answered that. Its their faith and belief.

So if a god existed and this is everything we know about a god...
View attachment 57990

How logical is it to ask for evidence of a god beyond faith and belief?.

You should ask for evidence

but it's necessary the same evidence you need for you to understand God, as the evidence I asked for when realizing God in my life

Keep asking, keep seeking.

F1fan · Dec 1, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
You should ask for evidence but it's necessary the same evidence you need for you to understand God, as the evidence I asked for when realizing God in my life

Keep asking, keep seeking.

And what exactly is it that you think you realized? You say there is evidence, is it objective evidence that is available to the senses and useful to reason?

DNB · Dec 1, 2021

F1fan said:
So then, wouldn't claiming a God exists also be subjective, thus not truth?

If a believer claims their God exists they should be able to explain how they came to that conclusion, yes?

Subjectivity does not equal fallacy.
Countless theologians have, including myself on this thread.

F1fan · Dec 1, 2021

DNB said:
Subjectivity does not equal fallacy.

I'm suggesting it doesn't mean truth, either. Especially if there is a lack of evidence.

Countless theologians have, including myself on this thread.

What none of you have done is provide credible evidence that your specific God exists. It's an observation.

DNB · Dec 1, 2021

F1fan said:
I'm suggesting it doesn't mean truth, either. Especially if there is a lack of evidence.

What none of you have done is provide credible evidence that your specific God exists. It's an observation.

It's a logical, and viable, and veritable conclusion.

Segev Moran · Dec 2, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
If it is invisible to your eyes or your other senses, why is it impossible that it does exist without you being able to detect it?

It is not impossible.

For something to exist, you must see it?

Well... No, but I must be able to measure it at the very least.
Until then... It is not yet probable to exist.

Can it be that other people can see and understand something you can't see or understand?

No, when it comes to seeing.
Obviously when it comes to understanding.
The problem starts when people claim they understand and causes people to follow them without seeing.

Can it not exist?

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