Arius was correct about Jesus

muhammad_isa · Nov 24, 2021

Lain said:
Nothing less than who God is and how He exists..

Yes, interesting that..
It seems that not one person who existed before Jesus knew "who G-d is and how He exists".

Why would that be? Why didn't G-d teach us this "valuable snippet" of information before?
In fact, if it was so important as you suggest, why wasn't it in the ten commandments?

Lain · Nov 24, 2021

muhammad_isa said:
Yes, interesting that..
It seems that not one person who existed before Jesus knew "who G-d is and how He exists".

Why would that be? Why didn't G-d teach us this "valuable snippet" of information before?

Why does it seem that way to you? What of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Ezekiel and the others who saw God? It doesn't seem that way to me.

As for why God reveals and restores knowledge, He has a multitude of reasons, I am not Him. One is that many are not pure of mind like those illustrious friends of God to see Him and discourse with Him directly, so He provides a revelation in Scripture to lead the mind to direct apprehension of Himself.

muhammad_isa · Nov 24, 2021

Lain said:
Why does it seem that way to you? What of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Ezekiel and the others who saw God? It doesn't seem that way to me.

The controversy between Arianism and what would eventually come to be defined as catholic orthodoxy provoked an enormous burgeoning of new movements, sects and doctrines which came into existence in the attempt to stabilize and consolidate a unique and universal position on complex and subtle theological questions. One of the central questions concerned the nature of God and the fundamental character of his relationship with his Son Jesus Christ as the preexistent Logos
-wiki Homoiousian-

Can you explain to me what Adam, Abraham, Moses, Ezekiel had to do with this?
They were strict monotheists according to the OT and Qur'an.
They had no belief in "essences" and "persons" and what have you.

Lain · Nov 24, 2021

muhammad_isa said:
The controversy between Arianism and what would eventually come to be defined as catholic orthodoxy provoked an enormous burgeoning of new movements, sects and doctrines which came into existence in the attempt to stabilize and consolidate a unique and universal position on complex and subtle theological questions. One of the central questions concerned the nature of God and the fundamental character of his relationship with his Son Jesus Christ as the preexistent Logos
-wiki Homoiousian-

Can you explain to me what Adam, Abraham, Moses, Ezekiel had to do with this?
They were strict monotheists according to the OT and Qur'an.
They had no belief in "essences" and "persons" and what have you.

I was just making the point that people previous to the Incarnation knew of God's existence.

They were strict monotheists like me who held my same beliefs, in my opinion. I do not think they were in any religion apart from me. The had not much to do with it, that quote sounds like an account of how their beliefs were defended against those who would deny them.

muhammad_isa · Nov 24, 2021

Lain said:
..They were strict monotheists like me who held my same beliefs, in my opinion..

Really?
They believed in exactly the same doctrine of the trinity as you do, and were taught that the Messiah was going to be G-d?
I think not !

Lain · Nov 24, 2021

muhammad_isa said:
Really?
They believed in exactly the same doctrine of the trinity as you do, and were taught that the Messiah was going to be G-d?
I think not !

As I said, the substance of the faith is not evolved or established. Moreover I hold that the Church is eternal, for as it says in the Psalter "God has founded it in eternity."

muhammad_isa · Nov 24, 2021

Lain said:
..I hold that the Church is eternal..

It can't be.
Jesus was a Jew and attended the temple in Jerusalem.
The gentile church did not exist at that time.

Lain · Nov 24, 2021

muhammad_isa said:
It can't be.
Jesus was a Jew and attended the temple in Jerusalem.
The gentile church was established after the Jews were expelled from Jerusalem.

I suppose we define the word differently then, for Adam, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah and the rest were all/are all preeminent members of the Church to me.

muhammad_isa · Nov 24, 2021

Lain said:
I suppose we define the word differently then, for Adam, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah and the rest were all/are all preeminent members of the Church to me.

Yes .. I understand.
However, I was raised as a protestant [ C of E ], and I could never understand the trinity.
Were we supposed to pray to God [the Father] as Jesus taught us in the Lord's prayer, or to Jesus himself?

I'm satisfied now that the religion that Jesus professed got mixed up with former gentile beliefs, amid confusion about his ascension.
There IS only One G-d, and if the trinity was so important, we would find Jesus explicitly teaching us so in the Gospel.

Sikhism is very similar, in as much as it is monotheistic, but its origin is from a mixture of Hinduism and Islam.

Lain · Nov 24, 2021

muhammad_isa said:
Yes .. I understand.
However, I was raised as a protestant [ C of E ], and I could never understand the trinity.
Were we supposed to pray to God [the Father] as Jesus taught us in the Lord's prayer, or to Jesus himself?

I'm satisfied now that the religion that Jesus professed got mixed up with former gentile beliefs, amid confusion about his ascension.
There IS only One G-d, and if the trinity was so important, we would find Jesus explicitly teaching us so in the Gospel.

Sikhism is very similar, in as much as it is monotheistic, but its origin is from a mixture of Hinduism and Islam.

I think that the Lord Jesus did explicitly say such in the Gospel. The "Our Father" is a prayer to the One True God, the Father. You can pray to whoever you want, prayers to the Lord Jesus are also in the Gospel. I myself this year took to studying the Trinity in much greater depth than before, as presented by the Church Fathers the teaching is understandable.

muhammad_isa · Nov 24, 2021

Lain said:
I think that the Lord Jesus did explicitly say such in the Gospel..

If that were the case, there couldn't be any doubt.
Why is there differences of opinion, and why were ecumenical councils held to establish orthodox doctrine, if it is in the Gospels?

It is NOT explicitly mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible, that I'm aware of.

..the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament..
...
Reflection by early Christians on passages such as the Great Commission: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" and Paul the Apostle's blessing: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all", leading theologians across history in attempting to articulate the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Eventually, the diverse references to God, Jesus, and the Spirit found in the New Testament were brought together to form the doctrine of the Trinity—one Godhead subsisting in three persons and one substance. The doctrine of the Trinity was used to oppose alternative views of how the three are related and to defend the church against charges of worshiping two or three gods.
-wiki Trinity-

I know you will say that the doctrine of the trinity is eternal, but this is not borne out by the evidence.
There are many different creeds that existed in early Christianity,
and the argument of "Church Fathers" is not convincing.
So much evidence was destroyed over the first few centuries, that what little evidence remains is what the authorities WANTED to remain.

The Nag Hammedi library and dead-sea scrolls along with similar finds have provided modern historical scholars with extra evidence to show that medieval beliefs were misplaced, and were the agenda of the political establishment.

Many people are frightened of change, and would rather stick to convention, than have an open mind and embrace some "foreign" religion.
Of course, Christianity is originally a "foreign" religion, but it was established so long ago, that it is ingrained in western culture.

Dogknox20 · Nov 24, 2021

PearlSeeker said:
Arius didn't reject Christ or Trinity. Details of Christian beliefs were uncertain.

Regarding 2 Peter see:

Authorship of the Petrine epistles - Wikipedia

.
Arius said.. Jesus was not co-eternal with God the Father: In plain English he was saying.. "Jesus was not God"!
PearlSeeker As far as the Epistle of Peter goes...It is in the bible, it is considered Inspired words of God! Christians believe the scriptures are God' words.. We believe God cannot lie!

Christians rejected Arius he was a False teacher....
PearlSeeker QUESTION..."Is Jesus God"?

Lain · Nov 24, 2021

muhammad_isa said:
If that were the case, there couldn't be any doubt.
Why is there differences of opinion, and why were ecumenical councils held to establish orthodox doctrine, if it is in the Gospels?

It is NOT explicitly mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible, that I'm aware of.

..the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament..
...
Reflection by early Christians on passages such as the Great Commission: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" and Paul the Apostle's blessing: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all", leading theologians across history in attempting to articulate the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Eventually, the diverse references to God, Jesus, and the Spirit found in the New Testament were brought together to form the doctrine of the Trinity—one Godhead subsisting in three persons and one substance. The doctrine of the Trinity was used to oppose alternative views of how the three are related and to defend the church against charges of worshiping two or three gods.
-wiki Trinity-

I know you will say that the doctrine of the trinity is eternal, but this is not borne out by the evidence.
There are many different creeds that existed in early Christianity,
and the argument of "Church Fathers" is not convincing.
So much evidence was destroyed over the first few centuries, that what little evidence remains is what the authorities WANTED to remain.

The Nag Hammedi library and dead-sea scrolls along with similar finds have provided modern historical scholars with evidence to show that medieval beliefs were misplaced, and were the agenda of the political establishment.

Many people are frightened of change, and would rather stick to convention, than have an open mind and embrace some "foreign" religion.
Of course, Christianity is originally a "foreign" religion, but it was established so long ago, that it is ingrained in the culture.

I don't see why there wouldn't be doubt. Any text I think, and this is not just the Bible, which is complex is going to have multiple interpretations which are all compatible with the words of the text but incompatible with each other. I think this is borne out by the debates on the meaning of philosophy books that aren't the Bible like the dialogues of Plato, or other religious texts and sects which have divisions among themselves, or even among historians trying to contextualize documents about happenings in the past. Multiple interpretations compatible with the words but incompatible with one another.

Dogknox20 · Nov 24, 2021

muhammad_isa said:
If that were the case, there couldn't be any doubt.
Why is there differences of opinion, and why were ecumenical councils held to establish orthodox doctrine, if it is in the Gospels?

It is NOT explicitly mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible, that I'm aware of.

..the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament..
...
Reflection by early Christians on passages such as the Great Commission: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" and Paul the Apostle's blessing: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all", leading theologians across history in attempting to articulate the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Eventually, the diverse references to God, Jesus, and the Spirit found in the New Testament were brought together to form the doctrine of the Trinity—one Godhead subsisting in three persons and one substance. The doctrine of the Trinity was used to oppose alternative views of how the three are related and to defend the church against charges of worshiping two or three gods.
-wiki Trinity-

I know you will say that the doctrine of the trinity is eternal, but this is not borne out by the evidence.
There are many different creeds that existed in early Christianity,
and the argument of "Church Fathers" is not convincing.
So much evidence was destroyed over the first few centuries, that what little evidence remains is what the authorities WANTED to remain.

The Nag Hammedi library and dead-sea scrolls along with similar finds have provided modern historical scholars with extra evidence to show that medieval beliefs were misplaced, and were the agenda of the political establishment.

Many people are frightened of change, and would rather stick to convention, than have an open mind and embrace some "foreign" religion.
Of course, Christianity is originally a "foreign" religion, but it was established so long ago, that it is ingrained in western culture.

.
I reply.. Jesus left behind a Church with Authority, a Church commissioned by God to teach all nations! The Church teaches "Jesus is God"!

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

muhammad_isa The "WORD" became Man! The WORD is God! Word became flesh

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

muhammad_isa QUESTION.. From the scriptures (above) do you read "Jesus is God"!?

muhammad_isa · Nov 24, 2021

Dogknox20 said:
.
...
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
...
muhammad_isa QUESTION.. From the scriptures (above) do you read "Jesus is God"!?

The Gospel of John has a distinct agenda. It is not like the other 3 synoptic Gospels. It's author projects his assertions onto his audience. It is thought to be written as a refutation of other Gospels.
I'm more interested in what Jesus actually said .. than the philosophical opinions of some anonymous author.

PearlSeeker · Nov 25, 2021

Dogknox20 said:
.
Arius said.. Jesus was not co-eternal with God the Father: In plain English he was saying.. "Jesus was not God"!
PearlSeeker As far as the Epistle of Peter goes...It is in the bible, it is considered Inspired words of God! Christians believe the scriptures are God' words.. We believe God cannot lie!

Christians rejected Arius he was a False teacher....
PearlSeeker QUESTION..."Is Jesus God"?

No, Arius was not saying Jesus isn't divine. He just said Jesus was not coeternal - Son of God but subordinate to Father. Not all Christians rejected arianism.

There was a controversy between two interpretations of Jesus' divinity (Homoousianism and Arianism) based upon the theological orthodoxy of the time, one Trinitarian and the other also a derivative of Trinitarian orthodoxy,[5]: 6 and both of them attempted to solve its respective theological dilemmas.
(Wiki, emphasis added)

Yes, 2 Peter is in the Bible but there are strong reasons to consider this writing a forgery...God cannot lie but God didn't personally dictate the words and God didn't decide which scripture is inspired or not.

Is Jesus God? If Jesus himself isn't reported to say so in all Gospels, then IMO no.

Dogknox20 · Nov 25, 2021

muhammad_isa said:
The Gospel of John has a distinct agenda. It is not like the other 3 synoptic Gospels. It's author projects his assertions onto his audience. It is thought to be written as a refutation of other Gospels.
I'm more interested in what Jesus actually said .. than the philosophical opinions of some anonymous author.

The Scriptures are the words of God.... God cannot lie!
You reject the Gospel of John but accept all of the Koran!? The Islamic sacred book the written opinions of some anonymous author???

Dogknox20 · Nov 25, 2021

PearlSeeker said:
No, Arius was not saying Jesus isn't divine. He just said Jesus was not coeternal - Son of God but subordinate to Father. Not all Christians rejected arianism.

There was a controversy between two interpretations of Jesus' divinity (Homoousianism and Arianism) based upon the theological orthodoxy of the time, one Trinitarian and the other also a derivative of Trinitarian orthodoxy,[5]: 6 and both of them attempted to solve its respective theological dilemmas.
(Wiki, emphasis added)

Yes, 2 Peter is in the Bible but there are strong reasons to consider this writing a forgery...God cannot lie but God didn't personally dictate the words and God didn't decide which scripture is inspired or not.

Is Jesus God? If Jesus himself isn't reported to say so in all Gospels, then IMO no.

.
PearlSeeker you don't like what you read in the scriptures so; God did not say it??? Is that it??!

Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord & my God"! Jesus said to Thomas: Those Christians that come after you are BLESSED because they believe the same as you without even seeing me!
PearlSeeker Clearly this (above) scripture is telling you.. "You are NOT blessed"!

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Genesis 14:19 and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.

PearlSeeker Jesus is GOD!

PearlSeeker · Nov 25, 2021

Dogknox20 said:
.
PearlSeeker you don't like what you read in the scriptures so; God did not say it??? Is that it??!

Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord & my God"! Jesus said to Thomas: Those Christians that come after you are BLESSED because they believe the same as you without even seeing me!
PearlSeeker Clearly this (above) scripture is telling you.. "You are NOT blessed"!

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Genesis 14:19 and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.

PearlSeeker Jesus is GOD!

Again: it's not in all gospels. You refer only to Gospel of John.

Dogknox20 · Nov 25, 2021

PearlSeeker said:
Again: it's not in all gospels. You refer only to Gospel of John.

I say it again.. You don't like what you read so it is a lie! ALL the Gospels are inspired words of God.. You can't pick what you like and reject the rest of God' words as lies!! Satan is the father of LIES not God!
In Matthew they worship Jesus... Worship is ONLY for God!
Genesis 14:19 and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.
3 Through him (Jesus) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Arius was correct about Jesus

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