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Did Jesus Survive?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Dear Abdulhakeem Saleh...............
Please may I have permission to join this debate?
I am quite confident, can offer evidence, that Jesus did not die on any cross...........
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Dear cOLTER

I would like to debate you on the question above. Please suggest how posts for each and who starts first.


Thanks alot.
We have the accounts of the scripture as our only eye witness testimony. That will be my foundation.

I guess you could state your case and I will rebut based on the scriptures.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
*** Mod: Invitation only is enforced under Rule 10 of forum rules. Nobody who is not invited may post here. All such uninvited posts are to be ignored and will likely be removed after staff deliberation. ***
 
We have the accounts of the scripture as our only eye witness testimony. That will be my foundation.

I guess you could state your case and I will rebut based on the scriptures.


Many thanks Sir.

I will argue that Jesus survival is more probable than death in case of Jesus based on the following evidences;

1. The trial of Jesus
2. The nature of Jesus appearances after coming out from the tomb
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Many thanks Sir.

I will argue that Jesus survival is more probable than death in case of Jesus based on the following evidences;

1. The trial of Jesus
2. The nature of Jesus appearances after coming out from the tomb
1. What was it about the trial that indicates that he wasn't killed?
2. What was he doing coming out of a tomb where his Roman executors places his body?
 
1. What was it about the trial that indicates that he wasn't killed?
2. What was he doing coming out of a tomb where his Roman executors places his body?


After Jesus was declared dead in Mark (15:39), Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus was so and also asked to confirm as per Mark 15:44. The reason for his surprise is (1) that Jesus was declared dead in few hours (less than half a day) while victims of survived for three days. Another reason is that the two crucified with Jesus were alive till their legs were broken while Jesus legs were not broken.

In Mark 15:45, the centurion confirmed, but we are not told what he confirmed. But historically and logically, Jesus was probably confirmed to have survived with the facts mentioned above.

On the second question, I will answer later.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
After Jesus was declared dead in Mark (15:39), Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus was so and also asked to confirm as per Mark 15:44. The reason for his surprise is (1) that Jesus was declared dead in few hours (less than half a day) while victims of survived for three days. Another reason is that the two crucified with Jesus were alive till their legs were broken while Jesus legs were not broken.

In Mark 15:45, the centurion confirmed, but we are not told what he confirmed. But historically and logically, Jesus was probably confirmed to have survived with the facts mentioned above.

On the second question, I will answer later.
* You imply that ALL victims of crucifixion die after 3 days. This isn't true.
Crucifixion
wiki

Cause of death

The length of time required to reach death could range from hours to days depending on method, the victim's health, and the environment. A literature review by Maslen and Mitchell[48] identified scholarly support for several possible causes of death: cardiac rupture,[49] heart failure,[50] hypovolemic shock,[51] acidosis,[52] asphyxia,[53] arrhythmia,[54] and pulmonary embolism.[55] Death could result from any combination of those factors or from other causes, including sepsis following infection due to the wounds caused by the nails or by the scourging that often preceded crucifixion, eventual dehydration, or animal predation.[56][57]

A theory attributed to Pierre Barbet holds that, when the whole body weight was supported by the stretched arms, the typical cause of death was asphyxiation.[58] He wrote that the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs. The condemned would therefore have to draw himself up by the arms, leading to exhaustion, or have his feet supported by tying or by a wood block. When no longer able to lift himself, the condemned would die within a few minutes. Some scholars, including Frederick Zugibe, posit other causes of death. Zugibe suspended test subjects with their arms at 60° to 70° from the vertical. The test subjects had no difficulty breathing during experiments, but did suffer rapidly increasing pain,[59][60] which is consistent with the Roman use of crucifixion to achieve a prolonged, agonizing death. However, Zugibe's positioning of the test subjects' feet is not supported by any archaeological or historical evidence.[61]

* After he gave up his life on the cross Jesus' body was pierced to determine if he was dead. The reason legs were broken after a period of time during crucifixion was to speed up death by asphyxiation.

* You "pick and choose" from the scripture to make their case. You choose ----> Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. But then ignore -------->Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.
 
* You imply that ALL victims of crucifixion die after 3 days. This isn't true.
Crucifixion

wiki

Cause of death

The length of time required to reach death could range from hours to days depending on method, the victim's health, and the environment. A literature review by Maslen and Mitchell[48] identified scholarly support for several possible causes of death: cardiac rupture,[49] heart failure,[50] hypovolemic shock,[51] acidosis,[52] asphyxia,[53] arrhythmia,[54] and pulmonary embolism.[55] Death could result from any combination of those factors or from other causes, including sepsis following infection due to the wounds caused by the nails or by the scourging that often preceded crucifixion, eventual dehydration, or animal predation.[56][57]

A theory attributed to Pierre Barbet holds that, when the whole body weight was supported by the stretched arms, the typical cause of death was asphyxiation.[58] He wrote that the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs. The condemned would therefore have to draw himself up by the arms, leading to exhaustion, or have his feet supported by tying or by a wood block. When no longer able to lift himself, the condemned would die within a few minutes. Some scholars, including Frederick Zugibe, posit other causes of death. Zugibe suspended test subjects with their arms at 60° to 70° from the vertical. The test subjects had no difficulty breathing during experiments, but did suffer rapidly increasing pain,[59][60] which is consistent with the Roman use of crucifixion to achieve a prolonged, agonizing death. However, Zugibe's positioning of the test subjects' feet is not supported by any archaeological or historical evidence.[61]

* After he gave up his life on the cross Jesus' body was pierced to determine if he was dead. The reason legs were broken after a period of time during crucifixion was to speed up death by asphyxiation.

* You "pick and choose" from the scripture to make their case. You choose ----> Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. But then ignore -------->Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.

I will provide certain justification;

1. Saying "You imply that ALL victims of crucifixion die after 3 days. This isn't true" is not true by Christian scholarly references when commenting on Mark 15:44 as follows;

a. Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges provides "Death by crucifixion did not generally supervene even for three days, and thirty-six hours is said to be the earliest period when it would be thus brought about. Pilate, therefore, marveled at the request of Joseph, and required the evidence of the centurion to assure himself of the fact"

b. Barnes' Notes on the Bible provides "It was not common for persons crucified to expire under two or three days, sometimes not until the sixth or seventh"

Give the above mentioned and despite the harsh treatment Jesus received, Pilate's surprise has a strong justification because death by crucifixion was a slow lingering death. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible comments on Mark 15:44 "For death, by crucifixion, was a slow lingering death; persons that were in their full strength hung a great while before they expired; and the two thieves, which were crucified with Christ, were not dead when he was"

2. I referred to Mark 15:45 in my first post. As per the interlinear, Mark 15:45 reads as follows "having knowing [it] from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph"

As you see, the bracketed [it] is added to the English translation. It is not in the Greek text. Here is the link for your reference;

Mark 15:45 Interlinear: and having known it from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph.

The fact remains that Pilate's surprise has its importance because it came after the declaration of his death and unbreaking of Jesus legs and piercing of his side.












 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I will provide certain justification;

1. Saying "You imply that ALL victims of crucifixion die after 3 days. This isn't true" is not true by Christian scholarly references when commenting on Mark 15:44 as follows;

a. Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges provides "Death by crucifixion did not generally supervene even for three days, and thirty-six hours is said to be the earliest period when it would be thus brought about. Pilate, therefore, marveled at the request of Joseph, and required the evidence of the centurion to assure himself of the fact"

b. Barnes' Notes on the Bible provides "It was not common for persons crucified to expire under two or three days, sometimes not until the sixth or seventh"

Give the above mentioned and despite the harsh treatment Jesus received, Pilate's surprise has a strong justification because death by crucifixion was a slow lingering death. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible comments on Mark 15:44 "For death, by crucifixion, was a slow lingering death; persons that were in their full strength hung a great while before they expired; and the two thieves, which were crucified with Christ, were not dead when he was"

2. I referred to Mark 15:45 in my first post. As per the interlinear, Mark 15:45 reads as follows "having knowing [it] from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph"

As you see, the bracketed [it] is added to the English translation. It is not in the Greek text. Here is the link for your reference;

Mark 15:45 Interlinear: and having known it from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph.

The fact remains that Pilate's surprise has its importance because it came after the declaration of his death and unbreaking of Jesus legs and piercing of his side.











Pilate was surprised, it only took 6 hours. Its included in the record.

But why didn't they leave the bodies hanging as they often did? The reason is in the record:

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Jesus was dead.

There were also eye witness accounts to his death included in the scripture.
 
Pilate was surprised, it only took 6 hours. Its included in the record.

But why didn't they leave the bodies hanging as they often did? The reason is in the record:

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Jesus was dead.

There were also eye witness accounts to his death included in the scripture.

I owe you a clarification as follows;

After events listed above in John 19:31-34, John 19:38 & Mark 15:43 agree that Joseph went and asked to have Jesus body. Then as per Mark 15:44 "Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died".
 
As I mentioned above, I will proceed now to my second argument to show that Jesus survival is more probable than his death. It is the nature of Jesus appearances after his departure from the tomb.
 
My second argument of the higher probability of Jesus survival is the fact that Jesus never appeared even once in flesh to even one of his alleged killer of the Romans or the Jews. Jesus not appearing even once to one of his alleged killers shows that Jesus was hiding because John 11:53-54 says "So from that day on they plotted to take his life. Therefore Jesus no longer moved about publicly among the people of Judea. Instead he withdrew to a region near the wilderness, to a village called Ephraim, where he stayed with his disciples".
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
My second argument of the higher probability of Jesus survival is the fact that Jesus never appeared even once in flesh to even one of his alleged killer of the Romans or the Jews. Jesus not appearing even once to one of his alleged killers shows that Jesus was hiding because John 11:53-54 says "So from that day on they plotted to take his life. Therefore Jesus no longer moved about publicly among the people of Judea. Instead he withdrew to a region near the wilderness, to a village called Ephraim, where he stayed with his disciples".
* That's speculation and conjecture based on the assumptions of human behavior. God the Son doesn't need to hide from humans.

* Jesus returned in a new form. He appeared and vanished to believers. Jesus didn't reward non-believers for their lack of faith in him and his Gospel. He rewarded and inspired his downcast followers.
 
Last edited:
* That's speculation and conjecture based on the assumptions of human behavior. God the Son doesn't need to hide from humans.

* Jesus returned in a new form. He appeared and vanished to believers. Jesus didn't reward non-believers for their lack of faith in him and his Gospel. He rewarded and inspired his downcast followers.

Many thanks. Below are my clarifications;

Saying "That's speculation and conjecture based on the assumptions of human behavior. God the Son doesn't need to hide from humans" would have been true had Jesus walked about publicly among the people of Judea because John 11:54 says "Jesus NO LONGER walked about publicly among the people of Judea".

2. Saying "Jesus returned in a new form" is not true because Jesus said to his disciples "behold my hands and my feet IT IS I MYSELF" in Luke 24:39.

3. Saying "Jesus didn't reward non-believers for their lack of faith in him and his Gospel" is not true because Jesus "came not to the righteous but to the sinners" in Mark 2:17.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Many thanks. Below are my clarifications;

Saying "That's speculation and conjecture based on the assumptions of human behavior. God the Son doesn't need to hide from humans" would have been true had Jesus walked about publicly among the people of Judea because John 11:54 says "Jesus NO LONGER walked about publicly among the people of Judea".

2. Saying "Jesus returned in a new form" is not true because Jesus said to his disciples "behold my hands and my feet IT IS I MYSELF" in Luke 24:39.

3. Saying "Jesus didn't reward non-believers for their lack of faith in him and his Gospel" is not true because Jesus "came not to the righteous but to the sinners" in Mark 2:17.

After the resurrection Jesus appeared to "sinners" that had believed in his Gospel when he was still in the flesh. He didn't appear to the unbelieving Jews.

After the resurrection Jesus was "suddenly" appearing and disappearing, even in locked rooms. Thats a different form. Like when Gabriel appeared to Mary or in 610 AD when he appeared to Muhammad in a cave. What kind of form or body does Gabriel have???? Gabriel doesn't walk around Meca, Jerusalem or New Jersy.


He appeared to two men on the road to Emmaus

Luke 24:30

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

John 21

Jesus Appears to His Disciples

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

Jesus Appears to Thomas


26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
 
After the resurrection Jesus appeared to "sinners" that had believed in his Gospel when he was still in the flesh. He didn't appear to the unbelieving Jews.

After the resurrection Jesus was "suddenly" appearing and disappearing, even in locked rooms. Thats a different form. Like when Gabriel appeared to Mary or in 610 AD when he appeared to Muhammad in a cave. What kind of form or body does Gabriel have???? Gabriel doesn't walk around Meca, Jerusalem or New Jersy.


He appeared to two men on the road to Emmaus

Luke 24:30

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

John 21

Jesus Appears to His Disciples

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

Jesus Appears to Thomas


26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”


Thanks for your responses. Below are my clarifications;

1. Saying "He didn't appear to the unbelieving Jews" is a proof that Jesus did not die at all because "So from that day on they plotted to take his life. Therefore Jesus no longer moved about publicly among the people of Judea" according to John 11:53-54.

2. Saying "After the resurrection Jesus was "suddenly" appearing and disappearing, even in locked rooms" does not prove there was a resurrection of Jesus.

Another proof that Jesus did not die is that the Jews were still looking for Jesus even after his trial according to Matthew 27:63, so had Jesus body been risen immortally, Jesus should WALKED PUBLICALLY AMONG THE PEOPLE OF JUDEA. But Jesus never walked publicly in Judea because John 11:54 says "Jesus NO LONGER walked publicly among the people of Judea".
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your responses. Below are my clarifications;

1. Saying "He didn't appear to the unbelieving Jews" is a proof that Jesus did not die at all because "So from that day on they plotted to take his life. Therefore Jesus no longer moved about publicly among the people of Judea" according to John 11:53-54.

2. Saying "After the resurrection Jesus was "suddenly" appearing and disappearing, even in locked rooms" does not prove there was a resurrection of Jesus.

Another proof that Jesus did not die is that the Jews were still looking for Jesus even after his trial according to Matthew 27:63, so had Jesus body been risen immortally, Jesus should WALKED PUBLICALLY AMONG THE PEOPLE OF JUDEA. But Jesus never walked publicly in Judea because John 11:54 says "Jesus NO LONGER walked publicly among the people of Judea".
The claim that Jesus had an obligation to walk around Judea among his enemies yet failed to do so is a human construct, a strawman, a contrived argument.

There are a number of eyewitnesses to the resurrection in the scriptures which is the foundation of my rebuttal.
 
The claim that Jesus had an obligation to walk around Judea among his enemies yet failed to do so is a human construct, a strawman, a contrived argument.

There are a number of eyewitnesses to the resurrection in the scriptures which is the foundation of my rebuttal.

Thanks again. Jews plotted to kill him (John 11:53) SO Jesus NO LONGER walked in public among the people of Judea (John 11:54) and Jesus continued not walk in public among the people of Judea.

Saying "The claim that Jesus had an obligation to walk around Judea among his enemies yet failed to do so is a human construct, a strawman, a contrived argument" is not true because Acts 26:23 says "the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles". So it is a must had Jesus been resurrected.
 
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