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Free healthcare

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
That is why the public expenditure on healthcare is unrestrained because I do want physicians to be paid properly.
When it deals with health care, no expenditure is excessive.
I don't think that is practical. The fundamental problem is that modern medicine has become too good. We can keep ourselves alive (not necessarily healthy) almost indefinitely and, significantly, have come to expect that. The problem is that - regardless of healthcare system - we're not willing to actually pay what that would cost (which I suspect would be something like twice what is invested in healthcare in Western European countries at the moment and similar to what is invested in the US, but without the insurance companies taking their cuts).
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
We are Italians. We adore unrestrained government spending. We used to do that until the eighties.
So either the Germans give our monetary sovereignty back, or they give us the money we need. Tertium non datur.
What does it mean? Italexit.
If you go on like that you blow up and become impoverished. Stick with Draghi: he will get you into a much better position. He may in fact be the best leader in Europe at the moment. Certainly the reputation of Italy is going up fast internationally under his guidance.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
If you go on like that you blow up and become impoverished. Stick with Draghi: he will get you into a much better position. He may in fact be the best leader in Europe at the moment. Certainly the reputation of Italy is going up fast internationally under his guidance.

Honestly I have never believed in dragons and in other mythological creatures. ;)
As far as I know, G. Meloni is the most voted one, apparently.
Going back to the topic, I believe in an efficient NHS in all European countries, so in Germany, France too.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Honestly I have never believed in dragons and in other mythological creatures. ;)
As far as I know, G. Meloni is the most voted one, apparently.
Going back to the topic, I believe in an efficient NHS in all European countries, so in Germany, France too.
And so do I. But funding it is costly and has to be paid for, with the necessary level of taxation, which then has to be collected, not evaded, Greek-style.;)
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
And so do I. But funding it is costly and has to be paid for, with the necessary level of taxation, which then has to be collected, not evaded, Greek-style.;)

In the eighties, when Italy had still the Lira, was it poor?
When Craxi was Prime Minister

We are speaking of an epoch where hundreds of new hospitals were built.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
In my vision insurance and health cannot exist in the same sentence.
The only insurance entities that are about health are public law entities. Entirely owned by the State and they cover injuries at the workplace.

Btw...thank you. It clarified many doubts.

What about creating a public insurance entity, owned by the State which covers anything?

Ok, I think most Americans are worried about about sub-optimal care. I think the system is not bad if you are in a union or work for the government. Just those who don't are left to figure it out on their own.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
In fairness, what you need to add is that this is funded out of central taxation, so tax rates are higher in countries that have such a system, with wealthier people contributing more than those on lower income. Nothing is "free", ultimately.

Also, some very expensive procedures are not supported by many of these state health systems. Costly new treatments have to be subjected to a cost-effectiveness evaluation before they are offered. But this is at the margin, for things such as highly exotic cancer drugs, or expensive therapies whose effectiveness is not clearly proven.
Wealthy people are contributing more? How terrible. My heart bleeds.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Wealthy people are contributing more? How terrible. My heart bleeds.
Well indeed. If you have followed the rest of my posts on this topic, you will see that the vast majority of British people, myself included, feel that is just as it should be. (I am one of the wealthy ones.)
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Ok, I think most Americans are worried about about sub-optimal care. I think the system is not bad if you are in a union or work for the government. Just those who don't are left to figure it out on their own.

The truth is that I would be okay with insurance companies if they were public. And not private.
Public law entities.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
We are Italians. We adore unrestrained government spending. We used to do that until the eighties.
So either the Germans give our monetary sovereignty back, or they give us the money we need. Tertium non datur.
What does it mean? Italexit.

That is why the public expenditure on healthcare is unrestrained because I do want physicians to be paid properly.
When it deals with health care, no expenditure is excessive.

It is unsustainable. Any country would eventually crash and burn with unrestrained government spending.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I think that is at least in part a issue across the developed world. Modern healthcare has become steadily more complex, healthcare workers don't have the same level of respect they once had and general pay level haven't really kept pace. There are still plenty of very good and rewarding careers available but there are more considerations before someone commits the time, effort and money necessary and so inevitably fewer people will choose to do so.

Question: By healthcare workers, are you including doctors?
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
Access to state funded universal healthcare, should be a fundamental inviolable human right. For, in my view, extremely pragmatic and humanitarian ethical reasons.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It is unsustainable. Any country would eventually crash and burn with unrestrained government spending.

Money is for circulating. It is not meant to be stockpiled by few bankers who cannot breathe without their daily million of dollars .

Money exists to be spent.
We all know what Seigniorage banking is and who benefits from it.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
It is unsustainable. Any country would eventually crash and burn with unrestrained government spending.
And yet, it is legal restrictions on government spending that bring the US government close to crashing and burning on the regular, and brought the EU its worst political crisis pre-Brexit.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Money is for circulating. It is not meant to be stockpiled by few bankers who cannot breathe without their daily million of dollars .

Money exists to be spent.
We all know what Seigniorage banking is and who benefits from it.

What money.... exactly?
If you spend beyond yours means you will either need to:

1) create money out of thin air, or,
2) borrow it from someone else, or,
3) seize it from someone else.

There is a limit to how much you can get from any of those alternatives. Unregulated spending will never be satisfied by any of those. There must be a budget. We can discuss about how big it should be, but there must be one.
 
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