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Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

JerryMyers

Active Member
You CANNOT prove Jesus is NOT God! All you have is a WISH! You WISH you were right.. Satan also wishes Jesus was not God Satan wants to be worshiped as Jesus is, he knows he MUST lie to to keep you in your error!
Dogknox20 you poor old chap!
I DON’T HAVE TO wish or prove Jesus is NOT God because your own scripture already proved that!!

Not true?? Then, just answer my previous question –
Was God lying or was God misleading when He said:

- “I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God” – Isaiah 45:5

- “Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no God apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but Me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other” – Isaiah 45:21-22

- “But I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but Me,
no Savior except Me” – Hosea 13:4

Dogknox20, I have many more things to say to you but you cannot bear them now… because it’s quite obvious your thinking logic and level of comprehension are incapable to absorb long posting.

So, I will stop here for now and wait for your response to the above question. Hopefully, this time your response will NOT BE repeating NONSENSE!
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
From my conversation and studies with Jehovah Witnesses they sincerely believe Jesus claims to be “a god” at John 10:33, but they would be wrong…not only from majority Christian standards but by Watchtower standards as well. I believe this is because the WT recognizes the dilemma of proclaiming Jesus “a god” at John 10:33 even if many Witnesses do not.

Let’s take a look at a traditional (NIV) and the Watchtower’s New World Translation (NWT) paying special attention to verse 33:

30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”​

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” NIV

OR:

33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” NWT

We’ll proceed with the “a god” translation as if it were correct, just to see how much mileage we get. Unfortunately this crashes us head first into our first dilemma.

Dilemma #1: Blasphemy

As soon as Jesus said “The Father and I are one” the Jews picked up stones. When Jesus asked why, the Jews explained it was for making himself “a god” according to the Watchtower’s translation.

This presents us with our first dilemma. According to the NWT, the blasphemy was for abusing Jehovah’s name, not some “gods’” name:

View attachment 41469

Source: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/john/10/#v43010033

In effect, both JW.ORG and the NWT are giving backhand support for the Trinitarian translation that the crowd was about to stone Jesus for calling himself Jehovah, and not for simply referring to himself as “a god”.


Dilemma #2: Biblical/Historical record

Jehovah Witnesses and other Arians are quick to tell us that judges, magistrates, and other powerful people were routinely considered or called “gods”. The problem here is that the NWT tells us the Jews were about to stone Jesus for calling himself “a god”. It doesn’t matter if the Jews were wrong or correct in their interpretation, what matters is their explanation that Jesus should be stoned simply for calling himself “a god”.


Let’s think about this…If Jews are stoning Jesus for being “a god” then all the other “gods”…their judges, magistrates, and other “powerful people”…were equally subject to being stoned by the Jews!

Yet the biblical and historical record is absolutely silent in this regard. There is no record of Jews stoning their judges, magistrates, or other “powerful people” simply for considering themselves “gods”.

So where’s the evidence?


Dilemma #3: Watchtower claims Jesus is “a god” (John 1:1) but not “a god” (John 10:33)

This is perhaps the most bizarre dilemma of all. Witnesses believe that the WT teaches Jesus is “a god”. Perhaps the Watchtower does, but as I am about to illustrate they just don’t teach it all the time. In fact, the WT claims that at John 10:33, Jesus specifically denies he’s “a god” at all! The reason for this will become clear.

Let go back to the Watchtower’s biblical scenario:

The mob is about to stone Jesus for blasphemy…calling himself “a god” according to the WT translation. They have rocks in hand, and they're itching to fly. But Jesus, having grabbed the crowd’s undivided attention does something curious. He quotes Psalm 82:6:

I have said, “You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. But like mortals you will die, and like rulers you will fail.” Psalm 82:6-7.​

The last thing you want to do with a stone wielding crowd is compare yourself to Israel’s judges of old. Why? Because the judges of old were condemned by Jehovah God! In other words, Jesus is saying “The judges of old were “sons of God”, I am the son of God, the judges of old were “gods” and I just told you I was “a god”, the judges of old were condemned by God…so what on earth is taking you so long to condemn me?”

If that doesn’t get a rock hurtling by your ear, I don’t know what would, and therein lays the Watchtower’s dilemma. They simply can’t have Jesus comparing himself to the corrupt judges of Israel by declaring he’s “a god” at John 10:33, and they certainly can’t have the crowd thinking that Jesus had just declared himself “God”.

But our clever “truth finding” friends at the Watchtower have a solution. A “twofer” they gleaned straight out of the text. Not only does Jesus deny he’s God at John 10:33, he also denies he’s “a god”! :

· 66 Jesus told those who wanted to stone him that he had not claimed to be God or a god, even though Psalm 82:6 had called some men, some Israelite judges, “gods.”

- The Watchtower—9/15/1962 pp. 560-567​

source: Prehuman Existence — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (see paragraph 66)

How the WT got Jesus to deny being God and/or “a god” at John 10:33 is baffling, but I suppose if you’re a Jehovah Witness it’s all there right there, embedded somewhere in the text.

Unfortunately that still leaves us with a huge problem. Let’s not forget that Jehovah Witnesses tell us Jesus is “a god” at John 1:1 so it’s really disconcerting to see them claiming Jesus denies ever being “a god” by the time John 10:33 rolls around. But as the quote and link above shows, this is “current truth” even to this day.

It’s a confusing, contradictory Christology.
Based on the dogma and the like I would conclude Jesus is a demigod.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue Good question...
Follow me through this...
1) God is perfect!
2) God is Love!
3) No one can love themselves... To love is to: "Give of yourself For/To another person!"
4) The Perfect God; the Perfect LOVE NEEDS another to Love or his love is NOT perfect.. Again to love you need two (at the very least).. Love of self is called Selfishness! It takes at least TWO (2) to love!

YoursTrue 5)... (God is outside of time; BUT for us to wrap our stinking heads around this next bit was must use **time) THINK The very **split second there was a PERFECT LOVE there had to be at least TWO (2) or there would NOT be "Perfect love"! There would NOT be God if there was NOT any perfect love! There would NOT be LOVE if there was not at the very least TWO!
6) The WORD was present at the very first; the very first "**Split Second" there was God! God could NOT be perfect if there was NOT two (2)! We move on.....

YoursTrue 7)
Love creates.... Example the love of a husband and wife create New Life! So for God to be perfect there must be creation coming from their PERFECT LOVE! The Holy Spirit "PROCEDES" from the Father & the Son! IF...

YoursTrue
if the Holy Spirit did not come from the PERFECT LOVE if the Love was sterile then it would NOT be PERFECT!
8) The very (**split second) there was GOD there had to be at least threDo not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance, for the LORD is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed.
e.. Father & Son in a perfect union of Perfect Love and then the Holy Spirit preceding from the union of their Perfect Love!

God is PERFECT he would NOT be perfect without someone to LOVE!
YoursTrue Taking your translation there, how many persons were there "in the beginning"? The answer can ONLY be Three (3)!
Please notice this, I know it may be hard for you:
1 Samuel 2:3 - "Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance, for the LORD is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed." How do you understand this scripture, DK?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Based on the dogma and the like I would conclude Jesus is a demigod.
At least he didn't say, I and the father are one and then there's also the holy spirit which also is one with us two. Or one all together of three persons, no demigods, each equal in everything (?) to the other. Right?
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Hmm DK, right at the beginning I see a situation. Jesus said you must love your neighbor as yourself. Didn't he?
YoursTrue I hope all is well...
Love is an action of the heart!
Selfishness is the opposite to love! If you want nice things for yourself chances are; your neighbor does also! AS You love yourself If you hate yourself there is a good chance you would NOT be very loving to your neighbor! ONLY....

YoursTrue
only Man can love.. Dogs Chickens Fish Cats Pigs Snails etc cannot love... ONLY...

YoursTrue
only man is made in the image of God... God IS LOVE! God wants us to love each other! Jesus loves us so much he took our place in death! The love of Jesus saved us... Jesus rose from death because he was without sin.. Sin could NOT hold Jesus in the grave.. He rose NEVER....

YoursTrue
never to die again! What happens is this.. We are IMMERSED into the risen, resurrected body of Jesus and AS LONG...

YoursTrue
as long as we REMAIN in Jesus we also will rise to new life! We were saved BY LOVE! We were saved BY God... God is LOVE!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
You are confusing the situations.

YoursTrue nope..... I tell it like it is.... They reject the truth to believe a lie!

TRUTH... Christians believe Jesus is God they always have taught and believed Jesus is God! I am Christian, those who reject what Christians believe and what Christians teach are NOT they CANNOT be Christian! LOGIC alone says; if you believe OPPOSIT then you are not of the same belief!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Please notice this, I know it may be hard for you:
1 Samuel 2:3 - "Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance, for the LORD is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed." How do you understand this scripture, DK?
YoursTrue Good question... Jesus is GOD.. look ....for the LORD is a God who knows Do you see it...Old Testament... "The LORD is GOD"!
NOTE...The Old Testament is for the Jews.. The Jews Honor God by addressing him as LORD! THROUGHOUT...

YoursTrue throughout the old testament the word "LORD is used in place of the word GOD!
EXAMPLE...
1 Samuel 2:1
Then Hannah prayed and said:

“My heart rejoices in the Lord;
in the Lord my horn is lifted high.
My mouth boasts over my enemies,
for I delight in your deliverance.

2 “There is no one holy like the Lord;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.

3 “Do not keep talking so proudly
or let your mouth speak such arrogance,
for the Lord is a God who knows,
and by him deeds are weighed
.
etc

The LORD IS GOD... ALL...

YoursTrue
all Jews know and understand "The LORD is GOD!"

Elizabeth is a Jew she is the wife of a high Priest! ALL Jews KNOW The LORD IS GOD
These are the words of Elizabeth "A Jew" (below)
Luke 1:43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
YoursTrue Clearly Elizabeth is saying "Mary is the Mother of her God!" EVERY ...

YoursTrue
every place in Luke 1 where the word "Lord" is written you can subacute it with the word GOD!

YoursTrue Your Answer is very clear to you.....I think it is very arrogant to reject the scriptures and twist the words of God to say what God did not say! NOT ONE of the sixty plus ligament scripture scholars have the letter "A" before the word God in John 1! It was the Arrogant hypocrite Watch Tower that added the letter "A" to John 1 so in their scriptures it reads: More then one God! The JWs and Satan teach Many Gods! Jesus not "A" god! Jesus is THE GOD! Mary is the Mother of GOD! Jews reject the idea of Many gods!
The Jw's teach and believe Jesus is one of many gods they are NOT Christian; they are the children of Satan he also rejects Jesus is God! Satan is Anti Christ his followers reject the "Cross" a Christian symbol! Satan was defeated by the CROSS he would never use the Cross as a Symbol of Love; he hates the Cross he hates all men!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
.

JerryMyers You asked... SHOW me wherein your whole Bible did Jesus tell you, as you put it, word for word. ."Worship is ONLY for God"????

Scriptures are God' words... Worship is ONLY FOR GOD!
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

ONLY WORSHIP GOD! Jesus never ever stop people from worshipping him because he is GOD!
ONLY WORSHIP GOD! Jesus never ever corrects people from worshipping him because he is GOD!
You NEVER read Jesus saying "Don't worship me; For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

Satan want man to worship him not Jesus! Satan want man to worship him so he starts churches that teach "Don't worship Jesus!" Satan want man to worship him so he starts churches that teach Jesus is NOT God! Satan is Anti-Christ he is against Jesus he is against Christians because Jesus is God; Christians worship Jesus they always have!
JerryMyers To reject Jesus is to reject God!
Massage and massage the words of God.. Twist the words of God until you have God saying what you want God to say!
They WORSHIP Jesus; Jesus lets them worship him! They clasp his feet and worship Jesus!

Thomas is a Christian he tells YOU; Jesus is God! Jesus tells Thomas; blessed are they who believe as you and have NOT seen me!
JerryMyers Jesus tells you.. "You are NOT blessed!"
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
Jesus is the most powerful person In the universe but not moreso than his Father in heaven. He will turn over everything, including himself after everything is made in subjection to him. Do you remember that? You're getting the words mixed up.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue nope..... I tell it like it is.... They reject the truth to believe a lie!

TRUTH... Christians believe Jesus is God they always have taught and believed Jesus is God! I am Christian, those who reject what Christians believe and what Christians teach are NOT they CANNOT be Christian! LOGIC alone says; if you believe OPPOSIT then you are not of the same belief!
Paul noted that Jesus will turn over even himself to the Father. Do you remember that?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue Good question... Jesus is GOD.. look ....for the LORD is a God who knows Do you see it...Old Testament... "The LORD is GOD"!
NOTE...The Old Testament is for the Jews.. The Jews Honor God by addressing him as LORD! THROUGHOUT...

YoursTrue throughout the old testament the word "LORD is used in place of the word GOD!
EXAMPLE...
1 Samuel 2:1
Then Hannah prayed and said:

“My heart rejoices in the Lord;
in the Lord my horn is lifted high.
My mouth boasts over my enemies,
for I delight in your deliverance.

2 “There is no one holy like the Lord;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.

3 “Do not keep talking so proudly
or let your mouth speak such arrogance,
for the Lord is a God who knows,
and by him deeds are weighed
.
etc

The LORD IS GOD... ALL...

YoursTrue
all Jews know and understand "The LORD is GOD!"

Do you read Hebrew, DogKnox?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue Good question... Jesus is GOD.. look ....for the LORD is a God who knows Do you see it...Old Testament... "The LORD is GOD"!
NOTE...The Old Testament is for the Jews.. The Jews Honor God by addressing him as LORD! THROUGHOUT...

YoursTrue throughout the old testament the word "LORD is used in place of the word GOD!
EXAMPLE...
1 Samuel 2:1
Then Hannah prayed and said:

“My heart rejoices in the Lord;
in the Lord my horn is lifted high.
My mouth boasts over my enemies,
for I delight in your deliverance.

2 “There is no one holy like the Lord;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.

3 “Do not keep talking so proudly
or let your mouth speak such arrogance,
for the Lord is a God who knows,
and by him deeds are weighed
.
etc

The LORD IS GOD... ALL...

YoursTrue
all Jews know and understand "The LORD is GOD!"

Elizabeth is a Jew she is the wife of a high Priest! ALL Jews KNOW The LORD IS GOD
These are the words of Elizabeth "A Jew" (below)
Luke 1:43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
YoursTrue Clearly Elizabeth is saying "Mary is the Mother of her God!" EVERY ...

YoursTrue
every place in Luke 1 where the word "Lord" is written you can subacute it with the word GOD!

YoursTrue Your Answer is very clear to you.....I think it is very arrogant to reject the scriptures and twist the words of God to say what God did not say! NOT ONE of the sixty plus ligament scripture scholars have the letter "A" before the word God in John 1! It was the Arrogant hypocrite Watch Tower that added the letter "A" to John 1 so in their scriptures it reads: More then one God! The JWs and Satan teach Many Gods! Jesus not "A" god! Jesus is THE GOD! Mary is the Mother of GOD! Jews reject the idea of Many gods!
The Jw's teach and believe Jesus is one of many gods they are NOT Christian; they are the children of Satan he also rejects Jesus is God! Satan is Anti Christ his followers reject the "Cross" a Christian symbol! Satan was defeated by the CROSS he would never use the Cross as a Symbol of Love; he hates the Cross he hates all men!
Was Jesus a Jew, DogKnox?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
  • Fathers sends HIS Spirit as a Gift to the apostles
  • Father sends HIS Son to be a sacrifice for the sin of Adam
  • Father anoints the son to be king and priest to him
  • Father grants power and authority to the son to perform miracles
  • Father removes the power of his spirit from the son the son can die
  • Father raises the son from the dead
  • Father seats the son at his right hand side to show the son is worthy
  • Father grants the son to rule for a time so the son can reinstate righteousness into the created word and in heaven
  • Father grants the son to judge the nations and the demon spirits
  • Son judges and establishes those he deems worthy as fellows in HIS KINGDOM of Paradise in the created world
  • Father remains ruler over Heaven
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Clear said to Dogknox20 : THE QUESTIONS YOU WERE ACTUALLY ASKED REMAIN UNANSWERED

1) How do you justify Murder and slavery and robbery and persecution, and oppression by your church?
How does any of this answer the actual questions you were asked regarding how you justify your church murdering thousands, enslaving both adults and children, robbing individuals of property, persecution and murdering Jews, and oppressing entire populations in the pursuit of riches and power?

2) How do you justify hypocrisy in comparisons?
How does any of your answers answer the question as to how you justify complaining that another church has a miniscule number of individual who died by adhering to an article of their faith (not to accept a blood transfusion) while your church actually MURDERED thousands and thousands of individuals simply because they would not accept your faith and would not abandon their own commitments to God?

3) How do you claim that the authentic Church of Jesus did all of these terrible things?
How do you justify the claim that the authentic Church of Jesus Christ murdered and enslaved and oppressed entire populations in the pursuit of riches and power while this is so uncharacteristic of the Gospel of Jesus as it is represented in the textual records?

4) How does one justify lying for God in trying to either misrepresent another religion or lying in order to proselyte for their own Christian faith?


5) How do you justify complaining that the Jehovahs Witnesses added a single, grammatically correct letter to a text while you add 32 (thirty two) letters to create a false text?





Dogknox20 replied to Clear : “Clear cry and complain all you want you cannot change history!
Historical fact.. Christians worship Jesus; "Jesus is God!" NOT....”



Dogknox, None of my posts complained about your doctrine.

My questions regarded how you justify murder and stealing and slavery, and persecution and oppression and lying and corruption of the Biblical text.

Simply repeating an irrelevant sound bite doesn’t answer any question you are actually being asked.

How do you justify either you or your church doing evil in the name of Jesus?
How do you justify doing WORSE evils than those you complain about?


Clear
φυνιφιεισιω
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
At least he didn't say, I and the father are one and then there's also the holy spirit which also is one with us two. Or one all together of three persons, no demigods, each equal in everything (?) to the other. Right?
That's what they say, but the classification of demigod is pretty much rock solid in line with other demigods in ancient mythology.

Jesus fits the definition of demigod pretty well.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
That's what they say, but the classification of demigod is pretty much rock solid in line with other demigods in ancient mythology.

Jesus fits the definition of demigod pretty well.
The TRINITY ideology paints Jesus Christ as a Man-God, a Demi-God, as you say.

I have pointed this out to them time and time again.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It's common with the mythologies of the day.
So what do you think it is that makes them justify a mythical man-God in Christianity but completely lambast it it for other belief systems when the principle is exactly the same:
  • A man who is both God and Man…
despite the unsubstantiated synergy and, of course, the schizophrenic nature and hypocrisy of it.

How does the person decide when they want to be ‘GOD’ and when they want to be ‘MAN’… knowing and all powerful at one moment and weak and ignorant at the next…

Superman/Clark Kent…. Schizoid!!
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Twilight Hue :


I think your point about Jesus being a “demi-God” is an interesting lens through which to examine Jesus’ Divinity especially since the model is so similar to and consistent with the model of Henotheism* of ancient Judaism.
*(i.e. multiple Gods, only ONE of which was dominant and worthy of ultimate worship)


For example, in early Christian literature and tradition :

1) Jesus is, somehow or in some way, divine
(i.e. a God). This allows for a demi-God model.

2) Jesus was not the same as his Father (the Almighty God of Gods) in early Christian tradition.
Multiple biblical references can support multiple doctrinal positions depending upon which scriptures one gives priority to and how they are interpreted. This is also allows a demi-God model.

Yet there is the Jewish tradition that

3)There is no other God "beside" the one God. (this in opposition to Israel having recognized and worshipped other Gods for which the prophets took them to task for)

While the later adoption of a 3=1 trinity creates logical problems as does the later model in which Jesus is simply a normal man, a return to the early Judeo-Christian Henotheistic model of the trinity (i.e. Jesus as a son of God who is a lessor God – demi God) may cause fewer problems of logic.

For example, If the Hebraist Heiser is correct in pointing out that “no other God beside me” is not a numerical reference, but is instead, a spacial reference, meaning there is no other God that is on the same level with or who is the same as or equal to the God of Gods/Lord of Lords (i.e. Jesus’ Father), then this reference is not a problem in the demi-God model of Jesus being a "lessor God".

While one interpretation is strict monostheism, another second interpretation means simply that none are equal to the Lord God (i.e. God of [other] Gods).

While the model of Jesus as a "lessor" or Demi-God may have it's own conceptual problem, it solves some of the other logical complaints of the later 3=1 trinity that became popular.



Clear
φυνεφυνετζω
 
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