John 14:6

Trailblazer said:

The basis for my belief in Baha'u'llah is all the evidence that demonstrated to me that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.
After I determined that I believed everything He wrote, including what He said about God speaking to Him through the Holy Spirit.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104

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I believe that means none then. So all your belief is based on wishing he were a manifestation of God.

I believe he changed his story. That is how you can detect a lie. There is no mention of Gabriel then he does mention Him. Do I detect a lack of discerning of spirits.

Trailblazer said:

No, it is not correct. The correct series of events is as follows:

A Summary
1. Baha'u'llah claimed that God spoke to Him.
2. Tb looked at all the evidence in order to determine if Baha'u'llah's claim was actually true.
3. After Tb looked at all the evidence Tb believed that Baha'u'llah's claim was actually true.
Thereafter...
4. Tb made up her mind that she will believe everything that Baha'u'llah wrote.

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I believe the truth is that the claim is perceived as the evidence of truth and therefore everything else said must be true.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I checked this out, and MOST of the socalled prophecies listed are not messianic prophecies at all. Let me give you three examples of what is listed that is NOT prophecy.

1.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

This verse is NOT about the messiah. It is about the enmity between mankind (the offspring of eve) and snakes.

2.
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

First, the word in hebrew is Almah. It means young woman, not virgin. There is a whole totally different word, betulah, that means virgin, which is not use.

Second, this prophecy is not about the messiah, but is about King Hezekiah.

3.
Hosea 11:1
“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Clearly this is speaking of Israel and the exodus, not the messiah.

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But are Baha'is any better? They believe Jesus was virgin born. That he, Jesus, along with Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah were all "Messiahs" or what they call "manifestations of God", and that Baha'u'llah is The Messiah that does fulfill all the end-time prophecies. So, they believe Jesus was foretold in the Bible, but many of the prophesies are really about Baha'u'llah. Plus, they would have to include prophecies that apply to Muhammad. And with the Bab, there has to be prophecies of two "Messiahs" coming in the end-times. Some of them, however, come from the New Testament, not the Hebrew Bible.

One of them is Micah 7:12 "In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain." Which, to me, because it is only one verse, already, it is out of context. Plus, KJV translates it different than most of the other translation. The main thing is the "he" is Baha'u'llah, and he was taken as a prisoner from city to city, sea to sea and mountain to mountain. Others tie in prophesies about Mt. Carmel, because their headquarters are in Haifa. And another is about the Glory of God, Baha'u'llah, was seen coming when looking from the gate, the Bab, that faces east.

All interesting, all explained in a way that kind of makes sense, but all of them are out of context. Obviously, considering how large Christianity and Islam got, it doesn't matter. And it really doesn't matter to Baha'is. So what good were the prophecies, if people in the other religions can interpret them any which way they want to? Of course, the people in that religion think theirs is the true interpretation. Like with the child in Isaiah 7:14... if that is Jesus, when did he fulfill the rest of the sign in the verses that come after that? It doesn't matter.

Trailblazer said:

4. Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies which is like icing on the cake. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book:
William Sears, Thief in the Night

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Dawnofhope said:

...
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

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I think it means, Jesus is the gate keeper. He decides who gets in. But, that he is the keeper doesn't necessary mean that there is no chance for those who have not even heard of him. Jesus tells that the eternal life is for righteous. That is the requirement to get in.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

By what the Bible tells, people who have not heard of Jesus can be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

1213 said:

I think it means, Jesus is the gate keeper. He decides who gets in. But, that he is the keeper doesn't necessary mean that there is no chance for those who have not even heard of him. Jesus tells that the eternal life is for righteous. That is the requirement to get in.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

By what the Bible tells, people who have not heard of Jesus can be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

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How many people do you think have not heard of Jesus? According to the following book, the Gospel of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent by the year 1844, spreading the Word of Jesus the Christ throughout the world.

In Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer wrote that the Gospel in his day had been spread ‘to ninety-five per cent of the inhabitants of the earth.’ He added: “It was in 1842 that five treaty-ports in China were open to commerce and to missions—advance steps in the opening of all China to the Gospel. In 1844 Turkey was prevailed upon to recognise the right of the Moslems to become Christians, reversing all Moslem tradition. In 1844 Alan Gardiner established the South American Mission. In 1842 Livingstone’s determination was formed to open the African interior.”

Dr A. T. Pierson in Modern Mission Century wrote: “India, Siam, Burma, China, Japan, Turkey, Africa, Mexico, South America … were successively and successfully entered. Within five years, from 1853 to 1858, new facilities were given to the entrance and occupation of seven different countries, together embracing half the world’s population.”

There were many additional references which made it clear that the Gospel of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent by the year 1844, spreading the Word of Jesus the Christ throughout the world.

This was considered by the students of Scripture to be in exact fulfilment of the words of Christ given in Mark:

“And the gospel must first be published among all nations.” (Mark 13:10)

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

So the question is, are all these people who have heard of Jesus and rejected Him going to get eternal life just because they were righteous?

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Trailblazer said:

How many people do you think have not heard of Jesus? According to the following book, the Gospel of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent...
...“And the gospel must first be published among all nations.” (Mark 13:10)...

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I don't know how many have heard of him. But I don't think entering every continent means all nations have heard the Gospel. First of all, not all Christians teach the Gospel, they have own doctrines that are not the same as what Jesus taught. And secondly, by what I know, there are still small nations that have not heard of the message, for example in Amazon jungles. And Christians are not allowed to go to teach them, maybe because someone wants to avoid the end.

Trailblazer said:

...So the question is, are all these people who have heard of Jesus and rejected Him going to get eternal life just because they were righteous?

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

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Why would righteous person reject Jesus? Is there any good reason to do so? If not, then I don't think they are righteous.

1213 said:

I don't know how many have heard of him. But I don't think entering every continent means all nations have heard the Gospel. First of all, not all Christians teach the Gospel, they have own doctrines that are not the same as what Jesus taught.

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That's a good point. I fully agree that Christian doctrines are not what Jesus taught, so it that is what they preached then those people never really heard the Gospel message of Jesus.

1213 said:

And secondly, by what I know, there are still small nations that have not heard of the message, for example in Amazon jungles. And Christians are not allowed to go to teach them, maybe because someone wants to avoid the end.

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That's true too, there are those who are far from civilization to whom the message has not been delivered.

1213 said:

Why would righteous person reject Jesus? Is there any good reason to do so? If not, then I don't think they are righteous.

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I do not think there is any good reason to reject Jesus, and as such I believe that people who were told about Jesus and reject Jesus will be held accountable, but I am not God so I don't know how God will see it and what they will face when they are called before God and have to explain why they rejected Jesus. I think God will take into account why they rejected Jesus but that is just my personal opinion. Nobody knows what will happen in the afterlife. All we can do is read various Scriptures and try to understand what they mean but we can always be wrong.

sun rise said:

For the sake of argument, I'll assume that he really said that.

When he said it, there was no Christianity. So if you take that quote literally he could not have been referring to that which did not then exist.

The next question I could propose is whether he was speaking of the human Jesus who lived and died or the eternal Christ. To me, his quote makes more sense spoken by the eternal Christ because he said that people who (truly) saw him saw the father.

Departing from Christian theology, what I see is that the eternal Christ, the Avatar, is the one who exists where all the rivers of belief merge into God.

In metaphorical terms he is the gate through which souls enter as they realize their union with Divinity.

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Why do you say that Jesus as Christ was / is eternal.

Does scriptures not say that God made Jesus to be Christ?:

• “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” (Acts 2:36)

And we know that ‘Messiah’ is the same word as ‘Christ’ (Hebrew / Greek).

And we know that the word ‘Christ’ means ‘ANOINTED ONE’.

And we know that Jesus became Christ when he was ANOINTED with Holy Spirit at his baptism in the river Jordan.

So how do you arrive at the claim that Jesus was eternally Christ?

Soapy said:

Why do you say that Jesus as Christ was / is eternal.

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My belief is that Christ (Avatar) is eternal and Jesus one manifestation in human form.

That does not come from Christianity but from my belief in Meher Baba.

Dawnofhope said:

An important controversy in Christianity is the interpretation of whether or not Jesus made exclusive claims where He envisaged no one could come to God except through Him, or whether a biblical theology should allow for the validity of other religions. An important verse used by Christian exclusivists to justify their theology is John 14:6 where Jesus speaks to His Disciples:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

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Jesus really is the Father himself and was incarnate. He said this to show that no one comes to God and denies the Son of God.

74x12 said:

Jesus really is the Father himself and was incarnate. He said this to show that no one comes to God and denies the Son of God.

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Jesus is the Father?

Can you show a definition of ‘God’ in relation to Jesus, please?

There are options.
1. Jesus said there is a Father (another persona).
2. Jesus said that there is another persona, but again he is Jesus, but already the Father.
Which option can you understand?

Gezellig said:

There are options.
1. Jesus said there is a Father (another persona).
2. Jesus said that there is another persona, but again he is Jesus, but already the Father.
Which option can you understand?

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What?

Jesus said there us another Jesus?

The other Jesus is the Father?

I guess you are going to go on to say that there is God and there is Jesus … and Jesus is God…. And the Father is God but he is really Jesus… who is both God and the Father!!!!!!!

Oh boy??!!!!!

Gezellig said:

There are options.
1. Jesus said there is a Father (another persona).
2. Jesus said that there is another persona, but again he is Jesus, but already the Father.
Which option can you understand?

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Another option is that both the Son and the Father are stations of the One Holy Spirit.

That God annoints the Chosen Messengers, with the same Holy Spirit, Thus making the source of faith, the same One Holy Spirit, from One God.

Regards Tony

Well according to the belief Jesus will be the judge deciding who enters and who doesn't - if he's doing that how would you get passed him he has the final say. If the faith is true all will stand in judgement of Christ. The human face of God will do the judging.

Shadow11 said:

Well according to the belief Jesus will be the judge deciding who enters and who doesn't - if he's doing that how would you get passed him he has the final say. If the faith is true all will stand in judgement of Christ. The human face of God will do the judging.

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We are judged in Spirit. To be born again is to be born in the spirit of faith to the Holy Spirit.

That same Holy Spirit is how we are judged against all the Messengers. They are one and all the Face of God amongst us, or the 'Self of God'.

We will never see the flesh Jesus, Muhammad, Bab or Baha'u'llah ever again, it is the Spirit that is life and can be the light of our hearts.

Today we stand in personal Judgment in light of the Salvation of all humanity, our connection to our One God, as one human race and our actions to bring about a unity of purpose.

All the best, good to hear from you.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul said:

We are judged in Spirit. To be born again is to be born in the spirit of faith to the Holy Spirit.

That same Holy Spirit is how we are judged against all the Messengers. They are one and all the Face of God amongst us, or the 'Self of God'.

We will never see the flesh Jesus, Muhammad, Bab or Baha'u'llah ever again, it is the Spirit that is life and can be the light of our hearts.

Today we stand in personal Judgment in light of the Salvation of all humanity, our connection to our One God, as one human race and our actions to bring about a unity of purpose.

All the best, good to hear from you.

Regards Tony

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I don't disagree I am just going on Christian theology and sticking to the question.

TransmutingSoul said:

We are judged in Spirit. To be born again is to be born in the spirit of faith to the Holy Spirit.

That same Holy Spirit is how we are judged against all the Messengers. They are one and all the Face of God amongst us, or the 'Self of God'.

We will never see the flesh Jesus, Muhammad, Bab or Baha'u'llah ever again, it is the Spirit that is life and can be the light of our hearts.

Today we stand in personal Judgment in light of the Salvation of all humanity, our connection to our One God, as one human race and our actions to bring about a unity of purpose.

All the best, good to hear from you.

Regards Tony

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TransmutingSoul There is only one truth not all peoples believe the same... Thus not all are right! Jesus will return at the end of days.

Dogknox20 said:

TransmutingSoul There is only one truth not all peoples believe the same... Thus not all are right! Jesus will return at the end of days.

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We see it in a different frame of reference.

God is one, so yes the source is One Truth.

Yes we see that Truth with different frames of reference.

Yes Jesus as Christ did return at the end of the Age.

So I agree with you seeing it differently.

Regards Tony

Dogknox20 said:

TransmutingSoul There is only one truth not all peoples believe the same... Thus not all are right! Jesus will return at the end of days.

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Jesus never promised to return to this world, not anywhere in the Bible. In fact, Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ does not refer to the same man Jesus, it refers to another man.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.