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Israel, the Servant of God

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Well, you do bring a smile!

Am I suggesting that David died and was resurrected? If you're talking about 'My servant David' then, yes, I believe he did die, and was resurrected. I believe all these Psalms are like parables. They lay the 'earthly' side by side with the 'heavenly'. If we have 'eyes to see' then we'll peer through the earthly window and get glimpses of the kingdom of heaven.

The same is true of Jonah. Jesus said, 'A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed'. [Matthew 16:4]

Your timing is a little off. David will not become king until the "last days", after the "sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king" (Hosea 3:5). The combined sons of Israel, the stick of Judah combined with the stick of Ephraim, have not been combined and returned to the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37). Only Judah, the Jews, have been gathered to the land given to Jacob, and David is not their king/shepherd (Ezekiel 34:22-24). (Ezekiel 37:24-28) & (Hosea 3:5) and no covenant of peace has been bestowed upon them (Ezekiel 34:25), as they are surrounded and pounded by missiles from their neighbors. First, all the nations (Daniel 2:45) will have to be destroyed per Zechariah 14:16, before the nations/Gentiles "worship the king", and keep the feast of Booths. Do you now keep the feast of booths, and when you don't, does your nation get rain? (Zechariah 14:18)
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
The title used of the Messiah, and the 'suffering servant' before him.
So you were talking about Jesus. Well, David - I think we can agree on this - when he wrote it, in the very basic layer of the psalm, was talking about himself. And he was not thinking: Oh I died and it wasn't recorded anywhere, heck I don't even remember it happening, but here's me writing about it.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
If one repents of sinning, such as turns away from sinning, confesses their sins, and baptized in the spirit, as in born of God, they cannot sin, which will be reflected in their good fruit, not bad fruit (1 John 3:9) & (Matthew 3:). The missing dimension is being "born of God", for first one must die to themselves to be born again. Yeshua showed the way per Matthew 3. It is the "deceitful heart" (Jeremiah 17:9-10) which allows men to think they are now justified for believing what the devil already knows, that God is one, and not three (James 2:19), and now they surely shall not die, the first gospel of the serpent/dragon/devil, which is mirrored in the false gospel of grace. The devil's belief will not get him out of the lake of fire (Revelation 20) (Genesis 3:4) All men will be judged according to their deeds (Jeremiah 17:10). There is no salvation by faith alone. Faith in what? The faith of Abraham was one shown by action. Rahab the harlot was justified by works. (James 2:18-26).

You are not supposed to remain a child of the devil and remain sinning (1 John 3:8). Sin only separates one from God. Grace does not increase with your increased sinning (Romans 5:20). The promise of rapture, and you never sleeping/dying are all fake news. Paul is apparently sleeping in his grave, in as that he is dead and supposedly buried outside of Rome. One either "comes out of her"/daughters of Babylon, or they receive her plagues. Your church can pray for your health, but God does not listen to sinners (John 9:31), and you will remain in your sins (James 5:15).
How do you make the link being 'born again' of the Spirit and having a deceitful heart?

Then you start to talk about three gods, which is not what Christians believe. God is one, without question.

And, as for 'works', were you never told that the works mentioned in James are works that follow faith?

Here's a passage from Isaiah that's worth contemplating:
Isaiah 8:14. 'And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion'.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
So you were talking about Jesus. Well, David - I think we can agree on this - when he wrote it, in the very basic layer of the psalm, was talking about himself. And he was not thinking: Oh I died and it wasn't recorded anywhere, heck I don't even remember it happening, but here's me writing about it.

Tell me, does the Messiah (you believe in) ever ascend to heaven?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Your timing is a little off. David will not become king until the "last days", after the "sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king" (Hosea 3:5). The combined sons of Israel, the stick of Judah combined with the stick of Ephraim, have not been combined and returned to the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37). Only Judah, the Jews, have been gathered to the land given to Jacob, and David is not their king/shepherd (Ezekiel 34:22-24). (Ezekiel 37:24-28) & (Hosea 3:5) and no covenant of peace has been bestowed upon them (Ezekiel 34:25), as they are surrounded and pounded by missiles from their neighbors. First, all the nations (Daniel 2:45) will have to be destroyed per Zechariah 14:16, before the nations/Gentiles "worship the king", and keep the feast of Booths. Do you now keep the feast of booths, and when you don't, does your nation get rain? (Zechariah 14:18)
What you appear to be overlooking is the fact that David was anointed as king (by Samuel) years before he was actually crowned king.

1 Samuel 16:13. 'Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him [David] in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah'.

This is a picture of what would happen to Jesus at the River Jordan. He was anointed by God, but he was not crowned as king [See Luke 4:16-21]. So, this is why Daniel 7:13,14 is so relevant. Daniel tells us that Jesus ascends to heaven to become King. It is from heaven that the Son of man returns as King to judge. The two thousand year interval is not a period of silence and inactivity. It's the opportunity for the Church, the body of Christ, to reach the ends of the world with the Gospel. How else can the Lord be 'a light to the Gentiles' [Isaiah 49:6]?
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Let's stick to the topic of sheol-Jonah-David. Did David think he died when he used the term "sheol"?
Psalm 16:10 in the KJV reads: 'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption'.

JPS Psalm 16:10.'For you will not abandon me to Sheol,
or let Your faithful one see the Pit.'

In Acts 2:29-32. [Peter speaking]'Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses'.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I don't understand 'the dark' to be talking about what happens at night, or simply when you sleep.

Psalm 88:11, 12.
'Do you work wonders for the dead?
Do the shades rise to praise You?
Is Your faithful care recounted in the grave,
Your constancy in the place of perdition?
Are Your wonders made known in the netherworld,
[darkness]
Your beneficent deeds in the land of oblivion?'

It strikes me that all these things are linked.
Verse 2 says "night" and verse 14 says "morning." If you see inferences as meaning literal death, but don't see the time between "night" and "morning" as referring to sleep then, again, I can't help you.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Psalm 16:10 in the KJV reads: 'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption'.

JPS Psalm 16:10.'For you will not abandon me to Sheol,
or let Your faithful one see the Pit.'

In Acts 2:29-32. [Peter speaking]'Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses'.
You seem to be dodging. Did David die and was he then resurrected?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
In reference to Jonah 1:12,15, can you tell me how else the Hebrew word 'heave' can be translated?
I don't understand the question. Are you asking if "והטילוני" (and heave me) can be translated as a different word?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Verse 2 says "night" and verse 14 says "morning." If you see inferences as meaning literal death, but don't see the time between "night" and "morning" as referring to sleep then, again, I can't help you.
I can see night and morning as having a spiritual significance. The night is a time of not seeing the light, being absent from God, whilst the coming of the morning is the coming of light and the presence of God.
Isaiah 58:8. [KJV] 'Then shall thy light break forth as the morning'
[JPS] ' Then shall your light burst through like the dawn'.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You seem to be dodging. Did David die and was he then resurrected?
David certainly died, but since the resurrection has not yet taken place, it's not a question that can be answered. The certainty is that David will be resurrected.

Jesus, on the other hand, is the first-fruits of the harvest. He is already resurrected.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I can see night and morning as having a spiritual significance. The night is a time of not seeing the light, being absent from God, whilst the coming of the morning is the coming of light and the presence of God.
Isaiah 58:8. [KJV] 'Then shall thy light break forth as the morning'
[JPS] ' Then shall your light burst through like the dawn'.
yes..."as the morning" and "like the dawn" as opposed to "in the night" and "each day."

But you see what you need to. Good luck.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
What you appear to be overlooking is the fact that David was anointed as king (by Samuel) years before he was actually crowned king.

1 Samuel 16:13. 'Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him [David] in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah'.

This is a picture of what would happen to Jesus at the River Jordan. He was anointed by God, but he was not crowned as king [See Luke 4:16-21]. So, this is why Daniel 7:13,14 is so relevant. Daniel tells us that Jesus ascends to heaven to become King. It is from heaven that the Son of man returns as King to judge. The two thousand year interval is not a period of silence and inactivity. It's the opportunity for the Church, the body of Christ, to reach the ends of the world with the Gospel. How else can the Lord be 'a light to the Gentiles' [Isaiah 49;6]?

Yeshua was baptized in the Spirit at the Jordan river, such that he was anointed, as were all prophets of Israel. He was the prophet to come in which you should heed (Deuteronomy 18:15). The ruler of the world would be the dragon who ruled through the beast (Revelation 13:4). The beast at the time being Caesar, and the dragon being the rulers god, which would be the represented as a sun god. That is why Roman Catholics worship and rest on the day of the sun, per the decree of the Roman emperor Constantine in 321 AD. The supposed light you live by is the dark message of the false prophet Paul, not the message of the "kingdom", whose foundation is justice and righteousness (Isaiah 16:17), taught by Yeshua. The Lord God is the one who is to judge between between the sheep in the day of the Lord (Ezekiel 34:22-23), and "then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David". Yeshua is simply to be king when he returns, as he was before, and will reign with those without the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4), for 1000 years. Your "church", which carries the mark of the beast with two horns like a lamb/Constantine, does not teach the kingdom, nor do they understand it, for it was taught in parables so that those without ears, the wicked (Daniel 12:10), could not understand (Matthew 13:13). Your gospel is the false gospel of grace/cross/lawlessness based on someone else dying for your sins, with grace abounding the more you sin. You remain in your sins, and your church cannot heal you or feed you (Ezekiel 34:1-5), and you remain "scattered". You will die for your own iniquity (Jeremiah 31:30). Isaiah 49:6 is with respect to rising up "the tribes of Jacob, "and "to restore the preserved ones of Israel. I will also make you a light of the nations". The "preserved ones of Israel have not been restored and the nations have at this time only received a false gospel of Paul, which leads to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13). Judgement will start with the fat sheep, who "I will destroy", and "I will feed them with judgment" (Ezekiel 34:16). This happens before My servant David is made their shepherd (Ezekiel 34:23). After the "day of the Lord", the "great tribulation", the survivors of the nations/Gentiles will turn to the Jews, and say "our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood". At that time, by "my power and my might; they shall know my name is YHWY. Up until that time, they will follow their fathers, the church leaders, and the false prophets.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I can see night and morning as having a spiritual significance. The night is a time of not seeing the light, being absent from God, whilst the coming of the morning is the coming of light and the presence of God.
Isaiah 58:8. [KJV] 'Then shall thy light break forth as the morning'
[JPS] ' Then shall your light burst through like the dawn'.

But they chose the darkness over the light (John 1:5). Only those with eyes to see can perceive/understand the light (Matthew 13;13) (Daniel 12:10). According to the unknown author of Hebrews, the "old"/Word is obsolete. According to Yeshua (Revelation 19:15), the "Word of God" will "smite the nations/Gentiles" with a sword from his mouth, on his return. The sharp sword from his mouth would be the Word of God, which turns out not to be "obsolete".
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
But they chose the darkness over the light (John 1:5). Only those with eyes to see can perceive/understand the light (Matthew 13;13) (Daniel 12:10). According to the unknown author of Hebrews, the "old"/Word is obsolete. According to Yeshua (Revelation 19:15), the "Word of God" will "smite the nations/Gentiles" with a sword from his mouth, on his return. The sharp sword from his mouth would be the Word of God, which turns out not to be "obsolete".
Before responding to your comments, l would like to know which books of the New Testament you consider to be inspired of God, and which you consider to be the lies of Satan. It seems to me that you have a very personal view of which books are canonical.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
David certainly died, but since the resurrection has not yet taken place, it's not a question that can be answered. The certainty is that David will be resurrected.
So dead David wrote a number of psalms? How were they transmitted to us?
Can it mean, 'to lift up'?
I don't see how. For that there's the previous word - וישאו - they carried him and threw him overboard. Why?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
So dead David wrote a number of psalms? How were they transmitted to us?

I don't see how. For that there's the previous word - וישאו - they carried him and threw him overboard. Why?
David, as a prophet, wrote psalms. The words he wrote express the mind of God, and are, possibly, intentionally ambiguous, allowing for both an 'earthly' and 'heavenly' interpretation, as is true of all parables.

I was also wondering whether the 'lifting up' of Jonah uses the same Hebrew as the 'lifting up' of the serpent by Moses.
 
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