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How can you tell if an event is a miracle.

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Got the point, thanks.

But you didn’t answer my question.
So you are saying that sane people ‘speaking with and receiving spirit entities’ follows the laws of physics?
It does if it's real.

That spirit entities, in the future when they become understood (i.e., can be explained), will then be natural? Simply because they exist?

How will that work? (That would require some serious overhauling!)
Everything that exists is natural.

I don't expect that we would ever find that "spirit entities" actually exist, but if their existence ever was demonstrated, then yes: our understanding of the physical laws of the universe would adapt to accommodate them.

But if that’s not what you mean, then please I would ask that you answer my original question.
So this question:

Tell this to the RF members here who have conversations with their spirit “guides”, or their gods. There are quite a few here. Do you think all of these incidents are due to drug use, delusions, or just plain faked? Granted, maybe some, or most.
But all?
I think there are quite a few people whose "conversations" with gods and spirits are one-way affairs. They may approach the exercise with the hope that the thing they're talking to is real. Others may approach prayer as a useful way of recentering their thoughts without necessarily believing they're literally speaking to a god or a spirit.

... but the ones who think they get communication back? Yes, I think they're deluded. At the mild end it can just be pareidolia; at the extreme end, it can be a matter of mental illness.

Any "communication from the spirit world" someone gets by going through extreme conditions (e.g. entheogens, sweat lodges, prolonged meditation, near-death experiences) I chalk up to the effects of the extreme conditions as opposed to actual spirits.

Do you have an issue with any of this? The tone of your question suggested you would.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I believe in miracles.

I just do not know the criteria for determining if something is a miracle or just an ordinary event that happens for some ordinary, if not necessarily understood, reason.

How can someone tell the difference between a miracle and something that is not or that looks like a miracle and is not.
Apart from the mundane of breaking the apparent laws that we have observed, I'm not sure one can tell, given that we don't even know if these laws apply to all of reality. But I don't believe in miracles - of the sort that are frequently cited - mostly seeing such as just religious persuasive techniques more than anything else. And being so for the more gullible. :oops:
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
I believe a miracle occurs by cause and effect.

Humans practiced one state that never existed as machine science.

Natural never science proved it could save us from our own propencity to be destructive as a human.

Why we believed in creations superiority as compared to human reasoning.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I believe in miracles.

I just do not know the criteria for determining if something is a miracle or just an ordinary event that happens for some ordinary, if not necessarily understood, reason.

How can someone tell the difference between a miracle and something that is not or that looks like a miracle and is not.

I would think it is a miracle, if a socialist would do something good, or politician would speak the truth. For me a miracle is an extraordinary event. :)
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I believe in miracles.

I just do not know the criteria for determining if something is a miracle or just an ordinary event that happens for some ordinary, if not necessarily understood, reason.

How can someone tell the difference between a miracle and something that is not or that looks like a miracle and is not.
Miracle is beyond the mind and science is below the mind ... if you can prove it, it's not a miracle anymore, then it's a scientific fact
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I believe in miracles.

I just do not know the criteria for determining if something is a miracle or just an ordinary event that happens for some ordinary, if not necessarily understood, reason.

How can someone tell the difference between a miracle and something that is not or that looks like a miracle and is not.
A miracle is the breaking of the perfect laws of nature established by God. So, the very fact that the laws are so perfect and predictive shows God power. Except when they are not, but in that case they are called miracles, which provide additional evidence of God.

joking aside, the best is to follow Hume. Something is a miracle if the only explanations left to explain it, are more miraculous than the event they describe.

so, take Jesus resurrection, for instance. Since the explanation “someone made that up” is viable, not easily defeated, and not miraculous at all, we can conclude that it is not a candidate, according to Hume.

ciao

- viole
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
I believe in miracles.

I just do not know the criteria for determining if something is a miracle or just an ordinary event that happens for some ordinary, if not necessarily understood, reason.

How can someone tell the difference between a miracle and something that is not or that looks like a miracle and is not.


Dear Dan From Smithville

Spiritual miracles happen every day and they are recognised by the changes they cause in those touched by them.

If Trump had emerged from his covid case as a humble man full of deep empathy for the circumstances of those he had nothing directly to do with, speaking of and acting from a place of selflessness, kindness and forgiveness, this would have been a beautiful, spiritual miracle.

That didn’t happen of course. But it could have! And it does sometimes; even to people like him.


Humbly
Hermit
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
When you say "at best" you no doubt mean "at best from the pov of someone who dismisses the stories as be in the truth."

This is probably the most ridiculous apologetic of all of the ridiculous apologetics. This makes the assumption that mythic supernatural legends should be believed first without evidence. Of course you don't really think that because you wouldn't want historians to assume every myth was true and have them writing histories of Zeus, Mithras and all Gods as if it was actual history. I imagine you just want your religious fiction to be taken as true. Special pleading at best.
But what you seem to be forgetting is that the EVIDENCE demonstrates to historians (in this case a Baptist Pastor who studied history) that the stories are taken from older myths and they also have evidence that the text was written way after the events described. That's what the best evidence shows. What you propose is absurd. That a historian would read a myth and not only assume it's an actual historical event but then upon finding older myths that are extremely similar they would use some apologetic to dismiss that fact rather than realize the story was taken from the older version.
This is dishonest. When I was Christian I remember saying that evidence is evidence and we should not expect scholars to just reinterpret facts just to fit my belief in stories. I had some way of reconciling it I guess which ultimately realized was self deception.
The fact remains that the consensus is that these are myths. Written like myths, taken from older myths and are equally as fiction as tales of Krishna or Osirus. No one outside of fundamentalists believe these legends are anything but tales to unite a new culture.
All of the surrounding nations had similar foundation myths, also taken from Mesopotamian sources and all of those religions were Hellenized around 3-100 B.C. just like Judaism was.
But the archeologists have different types of proof that these myths do not reflect actual history. As WIlliam Denver and Caroyl Meyers point out the Israelites came from Canaanite society not Egypt, there was no conflict and no archeology confirms any biblical story. But archeology does show a different story. Denver has stated that Biblical archeologists have been "letting the public down slowly" over the y


Official history coming from Egypt would not include the defeat of their gods by the God of the slaves that they were forced to release.

If you try, even a little, you can debunk your own apologetics. If you care about what is true. In 1300BC Amen became the one true God and the center of worship was Thebes. In the 7th century the Assyrians destroyed Thebes which lowered their main God Amen a great deal. This was not the first time defeats had changed the main God in Egypt.
No God in any culture is mentioned in any other culture because they are fiction. The actual Israelites are not mentioned because they were not in Egypt at that time, they are descendants of Canaan. That was the point of the words in that paper. He isn't suggesting Egypt doesn't mention the killing of firstborns because of God issues, he's pointing out that the archeologists are obviously correct that Israelites come out of Canaan.

The Israelites eventually became a nation and needed their own myths to write down laws and wisdom and unite the people. This is how things were done in 1000B.C.
Do you actually think KL Sparks, PhD Hebrew Bible, Baptist Pastor, doesn't already know of those absurd apologetics and realizes that educated people are not interested in psuedo-science crank?

William Denver, Israelites are in Canaan:
Is there mention of the Israelites anywhere in ancient Egyptian records?
No Egyptian text mentions the Israelites except the famous inscription of Merneptah dated to about 1206 B.C.E. But those Israelites were in Canaan; they are not in Egypt, and nothing is said about them escaping from Egypt.
Tell us more about the Merneptah inscription. Why is it so famous?
It's the earliest reference we have to the Israelites. The victory stele of Pharaoh Merneptah, the son of Ramesses II, mentions a list of peoples and city-states in Canaan, and among them are the Israelites. And it's interesting that the other entities, the other ethnic groups, are described as nascent states, but the Israelites are described as "a people." They have not yet reached a level of state organization.

So the Egyptians, a little before 1200 B.C.E., know of a group of people somewhere in the central highlands—a loosely affiliated tribal confederation, if you will—called "Israelites." These are our Israelites. So this is a priceless inscription.

Does archeology back up the information in the Merneptah inscription? Is there evidence of the Israelites in the central highlands of Canaan at this time?
We know today, from archeological investigation, that there were more than 300 early villages of the 13th and 12th century in the area. I call these "proto-Israelite" villages.

Forty years ago it would have been impossible to identify the earliest Israelites archeologically. We just didn't have the evidence. And then, in a series of regional surveys, Israeli archeologists in the 1970s began to find small hilltop villages in the central hill country north and south of Jerusalem and in lower Galilee. Now we have almost 300 of them.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I believe in miracles.

Can you demonstrate any objective evidence to support that belief?

if something is a miracle or just an ordinary event that happens for some ordinary, if not necessarily understood, reason.

Well we have ample objective evidence that natural phenomena occur, I am not aware of any such evidence for miracles.

How can someone tell the difference between a miracle and something that is not or that looks like a miracle and is not.

Shouldn't you be telling us that if you believe they exist?

FWIW the dictionary defines a miracle as an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.

That sounds like an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy to me if ever there was one. If we can't explain something then we can make no assertions about it, and you seem to have realised this yourself, judging from your question in the OP, so I am wondering why you believe they are real if you admit you can't cite any objective difference between a claim for a miracle, and as yet unexplained natural event? Especially since we know natural events occur, but have no objective evidence miracles do.
 

Stephen Shaw

New Member
Based on what events the Bible calls miracles, a miracle is a scientifically impossible event, usually witnessed by multiple people, that produces a very good effect. It is an event where God overturns the usual laws of nature.

Few people have ever witnessed a miracle. To have done so, they would have to have witnessed an impossible event, not just a highly unlikely event.

God helps us even when we don't witness a miraculous event.
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
Can you demonstrate any objective evidence to support that belief?
No.



Well we have ample objective evidence that natural phenomena occur, I am not aware of any such evidence for miracles.
Me neither.



Shouldn't you be telling us that if you believe they exist?
I don't know. I am not claiming anything about them, but asking questions.

FWIW the dictionary defines a miracle as an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.

That sounds like an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy to me if ever there was one. If we can't explain something then we can make no assertions about it, and you seem to have realised this yourself, judging from your question in the OP, so I am wondering why you believe they are real if you admit you can't cite any objective difference between a claim for a miracle, and as yet unexplained natural event? Especially since we know natural events occur, but have no objective evidence miracles do.
I don't know that I have ever seen a miracle under the definition you provided, but I do not know that I have not either. How can anyone know and those that claim to know are pretty closed-mouth about the criteria and characteristics they use to determine a miracle from an ordinary event.

As I said before, it is more that I want to believe in them, I just do not have any examples other than claims of miracles.

I am not claiming that something is a miracle or arguing for or against them. I just want to more fully understand the concept and hear from those that claim something was a miracle and how they know.
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
Dear Dan From Smithville

Spiritual miracles happen every day and they are recognised by the changes they cause in those touched by them.

If Trump had emerged from his covid case as a humble man full of deep empathy for the circumstances of those he had nothing directly to do with, speaking of and acting from a place of selflessness, kindness and forgiveness, this would have been a beautiful, spiritual miracle.

That didn’t happen of course. But it could have! And it does sometimes; even to people like him.


Humbly
Hermit
On a spiritual level, I think I can see what you mean. Your example would have been a good one to see come to pass.
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
A miracle is the breaking of the perfect laws of nature established by God. So, the very fact that the laws are so perfect and predictive shows God power. Except when they are not, but in that case they are called miracles, which provide additional evidence of God.

joking aside, the best is to follow Hume. Something is a miracle if the only explanations left to explain it, are more miraculous than the event they describe.

so, take Jesus resurrection, for instance. Since the explanation “someone made that up” is viable, not easily defeated, and not miraculous at all, we can conclude that it is not a candidate, according to Hume.

ciao

- viole
Thank you. The idea seems to flow into what I have seen of explanations for the global flood. The explanations require explanations that open up further questions requiring more explanations and so forth.
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
Miracle is beyond the mind and science is below the mind ... if you can prove it, it's not a miracle anymore, then it's a scientific fact
I am not sure I follow you. Proving something is a difficult proposition even for that which has evidence. There is always (though it may be less and less probable) a chance that some new piece of evidence would lead to rejection, so proof is not a good standard for what we conclude on the evidence.
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
I would think it is a miracle, if a socialist would do something good, or politician would speak the truth. For me a miracle is an extraordinary event. :)
I am not sure that socialists only do bad things. That doesn't seem like a good example.

You got me on the second one. If I thought a miracle was difficult to determine, an honest politician might as well be a unicorn.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I am not sure I follow you. Proving something is a difficult proposition even for that which has evidence. There is always (though it may be less and less probable) a chance that some new piece of evidence would lead to rejection, so proof is not a good standard for what we conclude on the evidence.
You think too much. I just said "IF you can prove it"

That's not about whether proving is difficult or not
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
:cool:
Also my challenge in life to reduce excessive thinking:). Many times I start a reply on RF, and after a few lines I think "is it worth replying....no... and delete them"
I've actually done that a couple of times too.
 
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