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Atheists have faith.

joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
TransmutingSoul said:
Jesus also said that True Prophets would again come, and that only those that accepted the New Name would see that to be so.

Regards Tony
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  1. What they prophesy must never contradict that Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of the earth (1 John 4:1-3).
 
joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
TransmutingSoul said:
A decent human being, so who sets those standards?

Let's consider where do most of the standards come from, as they have evolved and been taught to get to where we are now.

We could explore the question would one be happy with a way of life that the leaders of China offer? They have tried to do away with religious standards and impart men's standards?

How about the way the Drug Cartels live their lives, without following law on these matters, they set their own laws and they are happy and content with their life, do we choose those standards? If not why not, what human can say their choices are wrong?

It is all so easy these days to think that our moral standards are our own and in a way they are, and in another they are not. They are a capacity we have, but nature and nurture must bring them out of us and an education is needed. The virtues are a spiritual manifestation of our capacity to be more than an animal.

I see all moral and ethical standards practiced that build civilization can be traced to a spiritual message and lack of those morals and standards can be traced back to our rejection of the standards brought by spiritual messages from God.

Regards Tony
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It has nothing to do with spirituality. It's a strawman to bring up drug cartels and China. People look to all sorts of myths, modern and old and see how good people act. They are not "spiritual" messages. They are simply standards created by people designed to enhance well being. Being kind and helpful to others will possibly cause others to help you out when in need. It also creates social bonds which is important for psychological function.

We get moral standards from modern media, books, stories. The Hero's Journey is the most common mythotype used in stories. Myths with moralistic characters are everywhere, Neo, Luke Skywalker (resist the dark side) and so on.
Your so called "spiritual messages" are just more of the same plus many preachings you have to ignore. Like women not being allowed to speak in church, stoning children, slavery and so on. You reject those messages? Does that mean you lack morals? When going to war with another city if a peace offer of forced labor is refused do you kill all the men and women? Do you take women and children as plunder of war?
Says to in the OT. I guess you have a lack of morals because you rejected morals in scripture?
In Sermon on the Mount Jesus says do not take an oath. Along with many other absurd ideas. Do you pick and choose? Then you reject scripture and must be immoral.

Your ideas are so bent by religious thinking and contain paradoxes and illogical ideas. What happens is society chooses it's morals.
 
joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
TransmutingSoul said:
Why do you see atheists would practice moral and virtues, which obviously is more a spiritual choice over material benefits?

Regards Tony
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MOrals and virtues are a material benefit. Evolution has created brains that have compassion to others so we can have successful relationships with our tribe. As well as positive feelings coming from helping others. In modern times we attempt to extend this to all humanity. Acting bad towards others often brings negative things back to us. To avoid conflict and all sorts of problems it's fa better for well being for everyone to get along. This is a material benefit.
All you are doing is taking emotional states and the range of chemicals that surge during these times (serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin.....etc) and superimposing them onto a concept of "spiritual". They are not, they are states of the brain. In nature big cats love their young same as us. They protect their tribe members, socialize, groom, bring food for each other, even rescue infants from other tribes or species (if they are well fed). Why do they do this? Because their brains are wired for it because it makes for a more productive life and enhances well being.
They don't have a "spirit realm" making them do nice things. Why would compassion automatically be associated with a "spirit"? Can people not simply be nice?
Acting selfish brings all sorts of bad outcomes while the opposite creates relationships of all sorts which are fulfilling and helpful when we are in need.
The list of benefits, material benefits is vast. There are no spiritual benefits to this. You first have to demonstrate there is even a spiritual realm.

Someone is selling you concepts from a Deepak Chopra book that is fiction.
 
ratiocinator

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
TransmutingSoul said:
Why is it that people with same nature an nurture will practice morals and virtues to a greater or lesser degree?
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No two people have the same nature and nurture, not to mention the fact that later experiences in life would also have an effect. Even identical twins (who get the closest to having the same nature) will have slightly different experiences from day one. Human minds are almost certainly chaotic (in the mathematical sense) so subject to the butterfly effect.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
joelr said:
MOrals and virtues are a material benefit. Evolution has created brains that have compassion to others so we can have successful relationships with our tribe. As well as positive feelings coming from helping others. In modern times we attempt to extend this to all humanity. Acting bad towards others often brings negative things back to us. To avoid conflict and all sorts of problems it's fa better for well being for everyone to get along. This is a material benefit.
All you are doing is taking emotional states and the range of chemicals that surge during these times (serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin.....etc) and superimposing them onto a concept of "spiritual". They are not, they are states of the brain. In nature big cats love their young same as us. They protect their tribe members, socialize, groom, bring food for each other, even rescue infants from other tribes or species (if they are well fed). Why do they do this? Because their brains are wired for it because it makes for a more productive life and enhances well being.
They don't have a "spirit realm" making them do nice things. Why would compassion automatically be associated with a "spirit"? Can people not simply be nice?
Acting selfish brings all sorts of bad outcomes while the opposite creates relationships of all sorts which are fulfilling and helpful when we are in need.
The list of benefits, material benefits is vast. There are no spiritual benefits to this. You first have to demonstrate there is even a spiritual realm.

Someone is selling you concepts from a Deepak Chopra book that is fiction.
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No, sorry. That is not how biological evolution works. It also takes place within the human spices and it is not humankind that survives. It is a limited amount of humans, which passes on offspring.
So if in a context, it works for me not to be nice to you, then I will not be nice to you. Sorry, but that is how the real world works.
The 4 Fs in biology can be achieve by other means than to be nice.
 
joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
No, sorry. That is not how biological evolution works. It also takes place within the human spices and it is not humankind that survives. It is a limited amount of humans, which passes on offspring.
So if in a context, it works for me not to be nice to you, then I will not be nice to you. Sorry, but that is how the real world works.
The 4 Fs in biology can be achieve by other means than to be nice.
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The evolution of caring for offspring and family/friends happened way before humans. Hominids were social mammals, the apes who were anti-social and didn't get along with others had less access to food and sex.
The reason I know evolution gives us positive feelings when we help others is because this is a common feeling. Everything we feel is a product of evolution. Feelings coming from a spiritual realm is unproven fantasy. Our brain releases all types of chemicals to promote behavior so any behavior that produces positive feelings is an evolutionary trait. If you believe it's a "spiritual" trait please demonstrate the spiritual realm.

People feel good when they. help others. Therefore our brains have developed to release dopamine at this time. Happy feelings only come from chemicals. Serotonin, dopamine, opiate receptors, gabba receptors and so on.
It doesn't mean you cannot get the 4 F from other ways. It means OVERALL, creating friends, allies, keeping the peace, brings less violence and trouble back to you which enhances your well being.
In a context it may help you to be not nice. To get some food by force. But then the next day 5 people with swords are looking for you. No reproducing and spreading dna for you. So overall these behaviors produce better well being. It's nothing to do with faith or spirits.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
joelr said:
The evolution of caring for offspring and family/friends happened way before humans. Hominids were social mammals, the apes who were anti-social and didn't get along with others had less access to food and sex.
The reason I know evolution gives us positive feelings when we help others is because this is a common feeling. Everything we feel is a product of evolution. Feelings coming from a spiritual realm is unproven fantasy. Our brain releases all types of chemicals to promote behavior so any behavior that produces positive feelings is an evolutionary trait. If you believe it's a "spiritual" trait please demonstrate the spiritual realm.

People feel good when they. help others. Therefore our brains have developed to release dopamine at this time. Happy feelings only come from chemicals. Serotonin, dopamine, opiate receptors, gabba receptors and so on.
It doesn't mean you cannot get the 4 F from other ways. It means OVERALL, creating friends, allies, keeping the peace, brings less violence and trouble back to you which enhances your well being.
In a context it may help you to be not nice. To get some food by force. But then the next day 5 people with swords are looking for you. No reproducing and spreading dna for you. So overall these behaviors produce better well being. It's nothing to do with faith or spirits.
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I like how you confuse we as humanity as we as local in-groups.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
joelr said:
Which has nothing to do with the point that feelings are emotional, instinctual, cultural and do not come from a spirit realm where feelings stream down into our "soul".
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Yeah, I know.

I don't need to do religion, therefore everything I claim is correct, because the only source of wrong beliefs is religion.
 
Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
TransmutingSoul said:
This OP was inspired by a response in another post.

What is it to have Faith?

I see that many that do not have a belief in God or a Religion, still have Faith. That may be true of some atheists, this does not however mean atheism requires faith, since atheism is just the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities.

I see that many actions are based on morals that transcend this mortal world and are thus undertaken in Faith. Morals are subjective, but the effect of adopting certain moral prohibitions is not, so no, having morals or recognising they can protect people's wellbeing is not an observation based on faith, and certainly not blind faith.

It could be seen that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God. Well while some atheists may do this, this is not atheism, which is not a claim there is no god.

Could that be a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it? That makes no sense sorry, you either do or do not believe a deity exists, you seem to be implying atheists are pretending, how would that help them exactly? Also it is christians who believe that people can be forgiven and spend an eternity in heaven no matter what they have done, as long as they repent with true contrition. I have always found that idea morally repugnant sorry.

Does this free a person from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends? There is no evidence that theists are more moral than atheists, and many countries have secular governments and largely secular populations, and still manage to be at least as moral as theists. There is also some longstanding research that shows the percentage of atheists entering the prison system is lower than in the general population, and of course that theists are overrepresented in prisons, especially for violent crimes like rape and murder. Though this evidence is open to interpretation of course one can infer that in the US atheists are at least as moral as theists.

Personally I have faith and I am thankful that I will be accountable for the decisions I make and the weight of the world can be fully experienced and appreciated. Are you saying you wouldn't think crimes like rape and murder were wrong if you didn't believe you'd be punished after you die? Wow, I hope you never lose your faith.

So I see an Athiest can have Faith when they too transcend their own desires and serve others in preference of self. As I said, no faith is required for me to see the benefits to any society of finding crimes that cause suffering as moral turpitude. can you support your claim with any evidence? As it seems wrong to me.


As this action is a fundamental Faith based moral decision, do you have faith that action leads to better outcomes? No, I base my actions and my morals on objective evidence, it is objectively true that crimes like rape and murder for example, cause enormous suffering, so why would I want to cause or allow such suffering?

Regards Tony

P/S Edited as the purpose is to explore our actions against faith, it is not to bash an atheist. You may want to reword the title then, and pose it as a question, rather a claim that atheists have faith. I can't speak for other atheists, but I try not to base decisions or my rationale on blind faith, rather I try to examine objective evidence, and cultivate critical thinking to rigorously examine claims.
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ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
TransmutingSoul said:
The Bab offered it loke.this to the ruler of Persia.

"....The substance wherewith God hath created Me is not the clay out of which others have been formed. He hath conferred upon Me that which the worldly-wise can never comprehend, nor the faithful discover..."
(Epistle to Muhammad Shah, Selections from the Writings of the Báb)
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That's really self serving. Even Trump's ego wasn't that big.





TransmutingSoul said:
Every Messenger is the same, they are all we can know.of God, they are all One with God.
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Were both the Bab and Ballulah "Messengers"? Why two so close together? Wasn't the concept to spread out the Messengers for new audiences every few hundreds of years?

Are Jesus, Allah, and the Bab all equal?
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
TransmutingSoul said:
The station of Abdul'baha is unique, it is the first time such a station has been bestowed by a Messenger and Baha'u'llah said we are to turn to Abdul'baha if we want to know what it is to have faith, Abdul'baha is the perfect example of what it is to have Faith
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Above you say that Bahaullah bestowed something on Abdulbaha.

Below it says that Abdu;Baha bestowed things upon himself.

TransmutingSoul said:
"My name is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, my identity is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, my qualification is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, my reality is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, my praise is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Thraldom to the Blessed Perfection is my glorious refulgent diadem; and servitude to all the human race is my perpetual religion."
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TransmutingSoul said:
This year is the 100 year commemoration of.his passing. Abdul'baha spent 239 days in America, telling them how to embrace peace. It is fact that most Americans in that time would have read about him in the press.
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Do you have anything to support that allegation?
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
ecco said:
Below it says that Abdu;Baha bestowed things upon himself.
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Do you have any idea what Abdul'baha said in offering that?

What Abdul'baha said about himself was to clarify what everyone else was calling him.

They were calling him a Prophet , the return of Christ.

Abdul'baha offered that in return, that all I am is a servant of Baha’u’llah.

The opposite that you are suggesting are in those comments.

Regards Tony
 
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