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Apostle John was not the disciple, I think his gospels show this clearly.

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Again, Campbell does not use "myth" as a reference to falsehood but as a reference to stories with morals that cannot be objectively verified.
Don't you think he could have selected a word more fitting for his reference?

An application of this, for example, is Moses giving the 613 Comandments as found in Torah, and yet we cannot verify that Moshe even existed. Campbell's point is that whatever may have happened way back then, the Jewish people came to believe it and have acted on it for many centuries now.
I wouldn't use the word myth in connection with Moses and the Commandments. Just based upon the balance of probabilities Moses gets a 'Yes'. :D
The Commandments were so brilliant for the formation of a strong, secure, safe, healthy, successful people that whether sent down by God (which I personally doubt) or written down by mankind....... they were/are quite amazing.

Ever read "The Power of Myth" by him and Bill Moyers? It also was a PBS series many years ago, and I wish they'd repeat it. I've been reading Campbell since the mod-60's as he showed up numeerous times in my anthropological studies as the reigning expert on world religions.
No....... but I firmly believe in the power of myth, Metis. There are gigantic examples but even small examples such as how a whispered slander travels far and easily destroys a character...example enough. :)
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
No....... but I firmly believe in the power of myth, Metis. There are gigantic examples but even small examples such as how a whispered slander travels far and easily destroys a character...example enough. :)

I would not call that myth, but gossip, bearing false witness.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Campbell is an anthropologist, just a tad more famous than I am :rolleyes:, and we use the word "myth" often in this context.
I've led a sheltered life, Metis. The only Campbells I've heard about were a bloke who liked speed and a Scottish soldier who went around relieving sieges.

I know that 'myth' can mean an ancient tale containing some truth, but to me that's rather like using the word 'agony' to mean brilliant sex.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Exhibit One.

One of the most amazing experiences that disciple John could ever have witnessed was when he was with Cephas and his brother James on that mountainside (maybe mount Horeb?) when Jesus became 'transfigured'.
Jesus Christ took three of his disciples, Peter, James, and John, up on a mountain, where Moses and Elijah appeared and Jesus was transfigured, his face and clothes becoming dazzlingly bright (Mark 9:2–13; Matthew 17:1–13; Luke 9:28–36).

The word 'transfiguration' means a change of form or appearance. In this passage Jesus' appearance changes so a glimpse is given of his full heavenly glory, “His face shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as the light”. ... and Moses and Elijah stood beside Jesus! And that voice, sounding down from the clouds, saying, 'This is my beloved Son: hear him'.

Here is one of the accounts that are shown above, the Matthew and Luke accounts are most similar:-

Mark {9:2} And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. {9:3} And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. {9:4} And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. {9:5} And Peter
answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. {9:6} For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. {9:7} And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. {9:8} And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

Question:- If you had been there, seen and heard all of that, would that memory remain with you for all your days? If it was you who were writing and account of all that you had seen, heard and done with Jesus, would you make mention of that incident?

Well Apostle John didn't! He either didn't know about it, or didn't think it important enough to mention, or........ he never was that disciple John!

I believe it is most likely John knew of other gospels that were already written and didn't feel he needed to repeat the information. Remember it was Peter who was most impressed by the Transfiguration.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The options you give are not the only possibilities, but I can understand that this thread is about showing John was not the disciple John so everything is slanted that way.

I believe you are right in thinking that he is highly biased. What is it about John that he doesn't like I wonder?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Concerning this from Clement of Alexandria: "last of all, John, perceiving that the external facts had been made plain in the Gospel [the other ones], being urged by his friends, and inspired by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel."

I believe that sounds like speculation on Clements part.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I believe it is most likely John knew of other gospels that were already written and didn't feel he needed to repeat the information. Remember it was Peter who was most impressed by the Transfiguration.
Do you mean that John and James were not so impressed when they saw the prophets come down to stand by Jesus, the Lord on high calling down, the light........ ?
What other incident did they see in their entire lifetimes to equal it?

A bit of a stretch to imagine that the real disciple would not mention it, don't you think?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No Ken. No, you didn't. You wrote 'we', and you offered Lev as an example.

See for yourself :- It isn't that we "cling" to G-John. If you were to be speaking about G-Luke - we would be having the same discussion or, for that matter, Gen, Ex, Lev. et al. We simply trust the scriptures. I have studied them for almost 40 years now.

LOL... maybe "we" those who have studied? OK, so I have to take my foot out of my mouth.

:rolleyes:

But i would still defend Leviticus as I do with John :cool:

I mean the one who absolutely supports the past existence of Jesus and disciples, and gives new evidence in connection with them. I can't help it if he junked the virgin birth story, Ken.

Maybe one in the same? Unless there are two of them.

Please name any folks who lived on a Penal settlement island with the author/s of John, or anywhere

Historians say it was written in Ephesus. What does the Penal settlement have to do with the subject matter?

Well, the Gospel of John added much fuel to the flames of anti-Semitism.....

No... not the Gospel... people did that. I read the same Gospel and support the Jewish nation.

Now, if I read the book of Joshua, I would say that the Jewish nation eradicated other people on the basis of their scriptures and interpreted it properly. But not the Gospel of John.

Please quote your source for saying that Nicodemus tried to stop the execution of Jesus.

LOL I'll have to get back to you on this one... Have to read the Gospels.... again. I think I got it mixed up with Acts. Blame it on my age.

But I don't think that Jesus intended to 'take away the sins of the World'. I think that both the Baptist and Jesus intended to take away the sins, corruption, greed and hypocrisy of the Jewish Priesthood. That's why they offered cleansing and redemption of sins to the people..... for nothing, thus reducing Temple takings so drastically that Antipas was ordered to go out and fetch them in. (They were not within Pilate's remit).

I'm just going by the scriptures:
Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
LOL... maybe "we" those who have studied? OK, so I have to take my foot out of my mouth.

:rolleyes:

But i would still defend Leviticus as I do with John :cool:
Hello Ken.
I absolutely do love Leviticus and Deuteronomy.....

Historians say it was written in Ephesus. What does the Penal settlement have to do with the subject matter?
I have read that the author/s of G-John lived on Patmos, an isle just off the Ephesian Coast.

LOL I'll have to get back to you on this one... Have to read the Gospels.... again. I think I got it mixed up with Acts. Blame it on my age.
Me too..... I have to review the gospels all the time.
By the way, I still discover angles and factors in them that stop me dead.

I'm just going by the scriptures:
Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Ah....... I know it might seem odd to you but my studies of Historical Jesus sieve out the Christian content as I work, because that really got going after the Jesus story (for me). I do not recognise Satan as a real entity, nor do I recognise the existence of 'evil' which I know can leave some Theists quite stupefied. Wow! That's another thread, Ken. I'll post it up in a couple of days if I remember to.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Hello Ken.
I absolutely do love Leviticus and Deuteronomy.....
:hearteyes:

I have read that the author/s of G-John lived on Patmos, an isle just off the Ephesian Coast.

In my understanding, that was later in his life... when he wrote Revelation but not the during the Gospel of John.

Me too..... I have to review the gospels all the time.
By the way, I still discover angles and factors in them that stop me dead.

:)

Ah....... I know it might seem odd to you but my studies of Historical Jesus sieve out the Christian content as I work, because that really got going after the Jesus story (for me). I do not recognise Satan as a real entity, nor do I recognise the existence of 'evil' which I know can leave some Theists quite stupefied. Wow! That's another thread, Ken. I'll post it up in a couple of days if I remember to.

looking forward to another thread.
 
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