Is God an incoherent concept (impossible?)?

Link said:

It's the claim that virtues all have a proper application. I think we see this is the case in real life. Sometimes it's good to be nice (most of the time), some times you got to be firm to for example a very toxic person in your life or they will take you down. Niceness is good, but not if you apply it in every situation. Then it can have negative impact on you.

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That might be so, but where do you draw the line. Would you be able to recognize a "perfect application". Is your deity always drawing the line perfectly in all of its actions everywhere all the time (depending on its level of power, it could be in every single event in the observable universe).

firedragon said:

So who said that God "has to" balance what ever traits perfect or imperfectly? Who made that premise up?

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The person who claim that his or her god does so which in this case is @Link in post number 22. He claims his God or version of god does balance perfectly all the virtues even those who would seem often contradictory.

epronovost said:

That might be so, but where do you draw the line. Would you be able to recognize a "perfect application". Is your deity always drawing the line perfectly in all of its actions everywhere all the time (depending on its level of power, it could be in every single event in the observable universe).

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He is actually very free to choose between retribution justice and compassion, which is why the following are ultra important.

1) Pray for yourself and others, prayers impact God's decisions.
2) Seek intercession of God's chosen, they pray for you and teach you how to pray to God and help you in ways that God begins to have more mercy and compassion side and does away with his justice.
3) Don't talk to God like he is Calculator, he does what he wishes, he can if he wishes be just and deal with you justly and there is no evil or injustice on his part or he can have compassion on you and forgive you and forbear you and grace you greatly, and there is no injustice on his part.

The fact is if we try to rely on our own deeds, we probably going to fail, but it's good to do good deeds so that God his chosen and Angels have something to work with but don't rely on yourself, rely on God and his compassion and intercession of Mohammad (s) and his family (a). But 4:

4) Strive to do good deeds (create light) and fight off the evil (give God somethings to work with)

5)Recite and ponder over His revelations especially the Quran as it has a healing impact and Angels work with it to heal you as does the holy spirit and makes you love God over the deception of Iblis.


At the end, when God is going to be just or when he is going enter in his mercy - I don't know, there are guidelines, but at the end, he is entirely free, which is I believe Du'a (Supplication/prayer) is very important in that you don't address God like a computer that you tell him forgive me and he has to forgive you.

No, don't ever do that.

epronovost said:

The person who claim that his or her god does so which in this case is @Link in post number 22. He claims his God or version of god does balance perfectly all the virtues even those who would seem often contradictory.

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I am not saying he balances them, I'm saying virtues have an application, and so balance I mean, is to properly apply them, and God is absolutely compassionate in it's proper place and absolutely retributive in it's proper place, and there is in fact, a wide neutral ground, where God can choose either and none of them are wrong decisions. This is why prayer is very important. Pray to God and be humble to him.

epronovost said:

The person who claim that his or her god does so which in this case is @Link in post number 22. He claims his God or version of god does balance perfectly all the virtues even those who would seem often contradictory.

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Those are arguments against God made by someone who thinks they are logical impossibilities. The premises are made up.

Link said:

I am not saying he balances them, I'm saying virtues have an application, and so balance I mean, is to properly apply them, and God is absolutely compassionate in it's proper place and absolutely retributive in it's proper place, and there is in fact, a wide neutral ground, where God can choose either and none of them are wrong decisions.

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Then prove it. You can't just claim it. You have to demonstrate them.

firedragon said:

Those are arguments against God made by someone who thinks they are logical impossibilities. The premises are made up.

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Are you implying that no characteristics are incompatible? I could thus be a democratic tyrant; a loving genocidal monster, etc. without having those characteristics be logically impossible due to their self-contradictory nature? That's the premise of the argument here: some characteristics are mutually exclusive; you can't be one and the other at the same time. It's also the premise of the Problem of Evil in simpler more focused form; a common problem of many God definition.

epronovost said:

Are you implying that no characteristics are incompatible? I could thus be a democratic tyrant; a loving genocidal monster, etc. without having those characteristics be logically impossible due to their self-contradictory nature? That's the premise of the argument here: some characteristics are mutually exclusive; you can't be one and the other at the same time. It's also the premise of the Problem of Evil in simpler more focused form; a common problem of many God definition.

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So false premise. Made up.

Link said:

May God forgive me, but I've decided for the sake of intellectual discussion and augmenting level of debate, to play devil's advocate.

Warning: I know how to refute the arguments I'm about to make.


1. God as one ultimate being is impossible, because you have to choose between traits (compassion vs justice), and you can't maximize in any.

2. Greatness has to be earned and gained, while by definition, God is eternal, and hence can't earn praise, honor, greatness but would have always had it. This shows by paradox God is impossible.

3. Virtues and morality is often situational and context related, courage and bravery doesn't make sense for eternal all powerful Deit(y)(ies), and so most virtues can't stem from God's application of them, and God by definition has to have all virtues or would not be God.

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No. It's simply that God is always sourced back to humans, and that where it always stays.

firedragon said:

Ah yes. I agree.

Psst. Honestly speaking, there are very famous writers who do this kind of thing. And the books sell a whole lot all over the world.

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I'm not writing anything you don't already know, but I have found that fame is only very rarely related to wisdom.

Link said:

May God forgive me, but I've decided for the sake of intellectual discussion and augmenting level of debate, to play devil's advocate.

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Before we start, what real thing do you intend to denote when you say "God"?

Alternatively, are we talking about a being that's purely conceptual / imaginary, so that we can each attribute to it any qualities we like?

epronovost said:

Are you implying that no characteristics are incompatible? I could thus be a democratic tyrant; a loving genocidal monster, etc. without having those characteristics be logically impossible due to their self-contradictory nature? That's the premise of the argument here: some characteristics are mutually exclusive; you can't be one and the other at the same time. It's also the premise of the Problem of Evil in simpler more focused form; a common problem of many God definition.

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Arguably, yes, because characteristics do not exist intrinsically, but are products of our perceptions; any given person may well be perceived by their friends as loving and lovable, while perceived by others as a cruel oppressor. Recall the amicable faces of domestic abusers to the outside, or if we want to go to further extremes, Hitler's jovial attitude towards the people sharing his domestic life vs. the genocidal tyranny he imposed on the people of Europe. The key here, of course, is that this all apply to human beings, who are both flawed and frequently inconsistent in their thoughts and actions.

The Problem of Evil is not inherent in all theistic conceptions of the world, but specific to the Abrahamic idea of a God who is both all-powerful and all-capable on one hand, but also all-Good and all-benevolent on the other - in that case, we cannot simply may allowance for the kind of inconsistency we associate with human beings, because the Abrahamic God's actions are supposed to equally embody perfection and benevolence. It is a theological conundrum that is specific to that particular conception of divinity, and in my opinion can only be resolved by abandoning the notion of an omnipotent, perfect benefactor one way or another (usually by creating two different kinds of moral measure, one for mortals and one for divinity).

firedragon said:

So false premise. Made up.

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What false premise? That some version of God are self-contradictory? That's not a "false premise" some definition of Gods are indeed contradictory for a variety of reasons. Some are not and the Problem of Evil for example does outline several definition of gods that aren't contradictory, but still some are.

Kooky said:

Arguably, yes, because characteristics do not exist intrinsically, but are products of our perceptions; any given person may well be perceived by their friends as loving and lovable, while perceived by others as a cruel oppressor. Recall the amicable faces of domestic abusers to the outside, or if we want to go to further extremes, Hitler's jovial attitude towards the people sharing his domestic life vs. the genocidal tyranny he imposed on the people of Europe. The key here, of course, is that this all apply to human beings, who are both flawed and frequently inconsistent in their thoughts and actions.

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Fair point, but human character are usually considered idiosyncratic, fickle and contradictory. The personality of divinities are sometime described as eternal and constant. Human contradiction and compartmentalization would be anathema to a deity whose character is supposed to be "perfect, eternal and constant".

The Problem of Evil is not inherent in all theistic conceptions of the world, but specific to the Abrahamic idea of a God who is both all-powerful and all-capable on one hand, but also all-Good and all-benevolent on the other - in that case, we cannot simply may allowance for the kind of inconsistency we associate with human beings, because the Abrahamic God's actions are supposed to equally embody perfection and benevolence. It is a theological conundrum that is specific to that particular conception of divinity, and in my opinion can only be resolved by abandoning the notion of an omnipotent, perfect benefactor one way or another (usually by creating two different kinds of moral measure, one for mortals and one for divinity).

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That's completely correct, but I would just like to say that the Problem of Evil is 500 years older than Christianity and about as old as Judaism as we would be able to recognize it today.

Link said:

May God forgive me, but I've decided for the sake of intellectual discussion and augmenting level of debate, to play devil's advocate.

Warning: I know how to refute the arguments I'm about to make.


1. God as one ultimate being is impossible, because you have to choose between traits (compassion vs justice), and you can't maximize in any.

2. Greatness has to be earned and gained, while by definition, God is eternal, and hence can't earn praise, honor, greatness but would have always had it. This shows by paradox God is impossible.

3. Virtues and morality is often situational and context related, courage and bravery doesn't make sense for eternal all powerful Deit(y)(ies), and so most virtues can't stem from God's application of them, and God by definition has to have all virtues or would not be God.

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Examples of incoherence that you didn't touch on:

- God being both "eternal" (i.e. existing at all points in time) and "timeless" (i.e. not existing at any points in time).

- God being both "timeless" and a creator (since creation implies change, which implies time).

I'm sure there are others, depending on the specifics of the God you're claiming.

epronovost said:

Fair point, but human character are usually considered idiosyncratic, fickle and contradictory. The personality of divinities are sometime described as eternal and constant. Human contradiction and compartmentalization would be anathema to a deity whose character is supposed to be "perfect, eternal and constant".

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Indeed, and I think here we have two conflicting goals as far as theism is concerned - keeping the imagery of divinity consistent across a rather vast gulf of time and space on one hand, versus retaining an understanding of divinity that would be nevertheless relatable to your average everyday human being.

This may be my former Catholicism speaking, but I kind of liked the Cult of Saints as the more 'human' aspect of Christian religion; the Saints are actual human beings, complete with flaws and contradictions, which I would argue makes them a lot more relatable than the imposing figure of an omnipotent, triune creator god.

That's completely correct, but I would just like to say that the Problem of Evil is 500 years older than Christianity and about as old as Judaism as we would be able to recognize it today.

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That's why I specifically used the term "Abrahamic" rather than Christian.
I will note that this kind of thinking isn't even necessarily limited to Abrahamic monotheism - I vaguely recall reading about e.g. Plato being rather disgusted with the Homeric version of his gods, being convinced that divinity and morality ought to go hand in hand and that the gods should serve as examples of moral virtue to Hellenic citizens.

Link said:

So are you saying our power and his power are totally unrelated? Our goodness and his goodness totally unrelated, no connection?

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Gods aren't known to exist. You keep referring to a God was if it is a fact and we all know things about it.

I don't find your arguments honest, but rather deceptive and arrogant.

Link said:

Thanks for that. I agree with you, in Islam, God is beyond understanding and no knows how he is or in what mode he exists.

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So you admit you don't understand what God is, or even if the mode about it is that it doesn't exist?

Link said:

He is actually very free to choose between retribution justice and compassion, which is why the following are ultra important.

1) Pray for yourself and others, prayers impact God's decisions.

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So when the parents of a child with Leukemia prays for the life of their child, but God decides to let the child die anyway, is that consistent with compassion?

sun rise said:

I'm not writing anything you don't already know, but I have found that fame is only very rarely related to wisdom.

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I didnt know you were a writer. Thats fabulous.