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Interstate CDL License Bill Introduced In Senate

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
I didn't say any wage, ever at any time. There are exceptions. We were speaking in generalities. And as a gloss that principle is true.
Yet you still called it a "non response" when I brought it up, and dismissed it as nonsense.

So who should set wages, if it's not employees or employers?


On the contrary, it seems to be you who attaches a moral judgment to that criterion, ie that it is greedy and exploitative.
No, I assess that labor and capital are in conflict, which you dismissed as "black and white thinking" without any further argument, evidence, or even justification.

If there is no conflict between capital and labor, and both are in principle working harmoniously towards the best possible outcome for both sides, then most wages are in principle fair, barring outside intervention. Would you agree with this assessment?

I actually didn't take a position on it at the outset, I simply asked a question to those who thought it was an unfair or insufficient wage. I was, and am, willing to be convinced that the wage should be higher if people have a decent argument as to what it should be and why.
Well, I don't care about the number; I've outlined since the beginning that I think employees should take whatever they can get, you just dismissed that as nonsense and ignored my reasoning as to why.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
They are not. Practical skill cannot be taught by textbooks, and on the job training involves far more than most qualification programs do.

That is true. And yet, practical skills are routinely necessary to obtain professional, formal expertise in a field.

Also, neither immediately translate into better paying jobs the way formal qualification and education does.

As someone with a pretty high level of formal education myself, formal education also doesn't immediately translate to better paying jobs either. Real life is more complicated.

In order to have skill and expertise translate into better wages, you'd have to work the same job, at an employer who actually valued those criteria, which as you know full well is absolutely not the case for most low end jobs because skill and quality of work are not important there.

That is not entirely true. When applying for a new job, years of experience and actual demonstrated skill are routinely used as criteria upon which hiring and wage decisions are made. With entry level work, the work experience and formal training necessary for the job are minimal - these are routinely the first job a person has ever had. And again, the vast majority of workers in those jobs do not remain there - they are promoted, given raises, obtain new jobs at higher pay, and obtain higher education leading to more opportunities.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Yet you still called it a "non response" when I brought it up, and dismissed it as nonsense.

No, I called it a non response when I asked what wage you thought truckers should make, and you didn't provide one. Because that is a non-response.

So who should set wages, if it's not employees or employers?

We've been over this.

No, I assess that labor and capital are in conflict, which you dismissed as "black and white thinking" without any further argument, evidence, or even justification.

I provided no less argument, evidence, or justification than you did when making that statement.

If there is no conflict between capital and labor, and both are in principle working harmoniously towards the best possible outcome for both sides, then most wages are in principle fair, barring outside intervention. Would you agree with this assessment?

I didn't claim there was no conflict, ever at any time. I think it's too reductive and simplistic to see wages as purely a function of capitalist exploitation of workers. Reality is more complicated.

Well, I don't care about the number

Okay, well then you're not responding to the actual question I asked to which you responded that started this conversation. If you don't care about my question, then don't reply. :shrug:
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
I didn't claim there was no conflict, ever at any time. I think it's too reductive and simplistic to see wages as purely a function of capitalist exploitation of workers. Reality is more complicated.
Please elaborate.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Okay, well then you're not responding to the actual question I asked to which you responded that started this conversation. If you don't care about my question, then don't reply. :shrug:
Sorry, I thought you were in search of a substantial debate on the issue of wages and employee-employer relations, instead of just prompting people for a nonsense number. I realize that this is my fault for failing to read and interpret your posts properly, my bad.

Please disregard my request for further clarification, I don't want to get this thread even more off topic and accidentially push it into the direction of a useful and enlightening discussion on a topic you apparently didn't want to talk about in the first place.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry, I thought you were in search of a substantial debate on the issue of wages and employee-employer relations, instead of just prompting people for a nonsense number. I realize that this is my fault for failing to read and interpret your posts properly, my bad.

Please disregard my request for further clarification, I don't want to get this thread even more off topic and accidentially push it into the direction of a useful and enlightening discussion on a topic you apparently didn't want to talk about in the first place.

Your dripping sarcasm is noted. :rolleyes:

The number isn't "nonsense," it's people's actual wages. That they actually use to pay their bills and feed their families. I'm not interested in discussing angels dancing on pinheads. Abstractions on philosophy in economics and politics need to translate to real world outcomes. So again, my question was to people who felt that truckers don't make a fair wage. If you're agnostic on that question, then it's not a question for you.

Call me a heartless capitalist pig. :rolleyes:
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Your dripping sarcasm is noted. :rolleyes:
I was being sarcastic, but the sentiment is genuine. I honestly thought you'd be interested in debating the nature and dynamics of wages and their relationship to labor conflict in a capitalist economy, and am honestly disappointed to learn that that apparently wasn't even on your radar as far as desired topics in this thread went.


The number isn't "nonsense," it's people's actual wages. That they actually use to pay their bills and feed their families. I'm not interested in discussing angels dancing on pinheads. Abstractions on philosophy in economics and politics need to translate to real world outcomes. So again, my question was to people who felt that truckers don't make a fair wage. If you're agnostic on that question, then it's not a question for you.
Here's where I stand: There is no such thing as a "fair" wage.

Wages are by definition the result of exploitation and appropriation; but some wages are clearly a better deal than others, and as workers we should collectively strive to get everyone the best deal possible in an environment that has always been hostile to labor.

I'm sorry I didn't give you the number you crave, maybe it's best we stopped talking for a while.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I was being sarcastic, but the sentiment is genuine. I honestly thought you'd be interested in debating the nature and dynamics of wages and their relationship to labor conflict in a capitalist economy, and am honestly disappointed to learn that that apparently wasn't even on your radar as far as desired topics in this thread went.

I think systems conversations are fascinating. But at the end of the day they need to apply in the real world to be useful.

Here's where I stand: There is no such thing as a "fair" wage.

Wages are by definition the result of exploitation and appropriation;

I think we just fundamentally disagree here, unless we completely butcher what those words actually mean.

I'm sorry I didn't give you the number you crave, maybe it's best we stopped talking for a while.

Okay. :shrug:
 
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